To Grid or Not to Grid! Discuss this inside.....

[Guest *Captain Foobar*]

Let me reiterate that I have no problem with other people using a grid..... It is SO not my business, it's barely worth mentioning, but the thread was started asking for people's opinions on the grid, and I am just espousing my opinion that I am not interested in that. I dont feel disadvantaged by the thought of my opponent using it. I feel that I can get a hull down just as easily without it, he will be the one disadvantaged by not seeing stuff as cool on his monitor....

[Törni]

Why don't you just play chess then? It has clear squares and no chance for random encounters. Everything is in control and all the mistakes you make are your own fault.

Now I don't anymore wonder why the wargaming community is getting gradually smaller and smaller. This 70's boardgame attitude...

I thought the days of Panzer General were over:-(

[von shrad]

and whats wrong with boardgames?! They should make A3R in a computer hex-based game. The aspect of seeing the fear in your opponents eyes is great as is the human interaction. ok, its off topic. Nevermind.

[Guest aaronb]

Pfalz XII said it - this might save me buying a Revelator.

As far as gameplay, all it does is enhance the 3d effect that you don't get now due to lack of binary vision and more subtle clues that just don't appear on a 72dpi monitor.

However, it looks awful. If I was making movies to show, I'd go back to non-grid terrain.

[Guest ACTOR]

I've been using it in the snow, and it is ok. I haven't played with the grass yet, but we'll see. It is nice to make quick reference as to distance to targets that are spotted.

In my mind it just makes it easier to determine elevation quickly. I don't know that it is gamey, if you want to know elevation now you just go to level 1 and look around. I am still using level 1 views even with the grids.

I think it is personal preference. I do agree though, that when and if I make movies I will get rid of them.

[Törni]

Nothing wrong with board games or chess, but CM is supposed to be a 3D tactical simulation right????

[Bastables]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pfalz XII:

I don't think gridlines are gamey or unrealistic. What IS unrealistic is trying to look at 3D terrain through a 2D computer monitor. Gridlines are simply a visual aid to assist the player in determining the lay of the land.

Golf sims frequently use gridlines for this very purpose. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Your eyes take in the visual medium by a 2d process. It’s your mind that turns everything 3d. The differences between Doom and Quake are quite apparent. The fact that your eyes see in 2d means that one can be fooled by optical illusions in the real world. Please do not use reality tm to support your game playing aids, it cheapens life.

[This message has been edited by Bastables (edited 07-22-2000).]

[Lorak]

yes Torni,

So whats wrong with making the 3d easier to see?

I can understand everyones position on this. I also haven't decided If I want to try them or not. But I think something like this is a nice tool to have. Personaly when using some of the new grass mods, I find it almost impossible to judge elevation from even level 1 views. Doesn't mean I can't get my tanks in a nice hull down position. (I think I'm pretty good at that). Just that it might not take as long to plot and re-plot the moves to do it.

This is also a first attempt, nice job that it is. I think it could be made a little less obtruisive. The one for the snow (in the screenshots) looks great. I think the one for the grass should be made a little less visable though. You could see the lines in the original tiles but very faint. I think something between the lines in the orignal and the new would be nice.

Lorak

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"someone you trust is one of us"..........the illuminati

*

http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/combatmissionclub

Lorak's FTX for CM <--Proud member of the Combat Mission Webring

[Törni]

...and movies not real either because of the lack of time and space continuum, 2D presentation etc. Heck the only 3D representations that I know are produced by sculpture and industrial design. Oh and the IMAX...

[OberGrupenStompinFeuhrer!]

Okay, my .02c as well. I was so thrilled to learn about CM and discover the 3D terrain and the lack of hexes. The ability to "get down and dirty" with the troops and spy out the lay of the land. Check LOS and immersively interact with the environment when planning tactics. This is what made CM such a revolutionary game, at least for me.

Will the grids take all that away? Probabaly not, and definitely not for me - cos I won't use them I reckon. I'm sticking with the revolution. If I want hexes, I'll go and play Panzer General again (not). But if my opponenet(s) want to use them, what do I care? I'm still pitting my "real terrain" tactical skill against him/her. So I'll just get my butt kicked either way. :^)

Bottom line, I think the grids are a step backwards - but so long as I am not forced to use them then it's for someone else to decide what suits them best. Guess I'm with the Captain on this one.

OGSF

[sbg2112]

No question this will be one busy topic.

I still haven't made up my mind yet, but here's two quick points....

First, this is not a throwback to hexes. The difference is that CM is still 3-d -- don't the tiles only represent the smallest "unit" of terrain? If I'm right then the point is that hexes are also the smallest unit of movement. It may be reminiscent of hexes, but it ain't the same thing.....

Second, I believe it would look even better if the color of the grid lines were blended a little better with the terrain. Since our optics are sorta engineered for detecting lines, I'm thinking it wouldn't take much contrast for the lines to be seen....

Oh, and as for this being some kinda cheat -- I don't get it. There are other checks that prevent this from being abused, esp. the checks that BTS put in to avoid gamey movement planning.

I guess I see it as being a necessary evil given the limitations of the presentation -- i.e., a monitor. Since CM doesn't bundle VR gear, things like this will inevitably find their place.

Hmmm, guess I made up my mind after all.

[iggi]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>However, it looks awful. If I was making movies to show, I'd go back to non-grid terrain.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The visuals are only seen on your PC.

[iggi]

It's not gamey cause a squad leader would be able to place his squad at an exact point relative to a house easily.

Another thing that can be improved is how squads react to a threat they run into. Sometimes when you have say three squads advancing, two squads might break and run. If there is an HQ near those 3 squads, he should keep the three squads together so that if 2 out of three are retreating, the HQ should automaticaly go with the retreating squads and the squad that isn't retreating should follow the HQ.

Sometimes I feel that HQs and thier squads exist in worlds by themselves.You send a section forward and when they run into a threat it's like billiard balls. Smack they go in different directions. It's only for a min but if there's an HQ there, there should be more control of the regrouping. The HQ should think to itself, "2 out of three squads are really having a hard time". Now as a group the HQ retreats the three squads to a safe area in a coordinated fashion. Perhaps we should be able to set a level of cohesiveness to an HQ so that we can decide what SOP the HQ should follow. More aggressive would have him leaving squads by themselves when most of the section is retreating. More cautious will have the HQ keeping the team together when they encounter too much of a threat and have the team retreat together.

Like I said a good while back, if one squad gets shot at and his buddy squad is just a wee bit out of los of the threat and there is an HQ nearby, the squads should support each other. It's as simple as one squad crawling a wee bit to support the threatened squad. They just sit there and don't help out. They have to be a bit more human.

[This message has been edited by iggi (edited 07-22-2000).]

[Jeff Heidman]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bastables:

Your eyes take in the visual medium by a 2d process. It’s your mind that turns everything 3d. The differences between Doom and Quake are quite apparent. The fact that your eyes see in 2d means that one can be fooled by optical illusions in the real world. Please do not use reality tm to support your game playing aids, it cheapens life.

[This message has been edited by Bastables (edited 07-22-2000).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is just plain untrue. Your eyes are binocular, and use the difference between the pictures generated by two eyes a few inches apart to see depth. It is not 2d in the least.

Further, the way in which your eyes do this is totally dependent upon the fact that the human eye can see resolutions an order of magnitude finer than anything you will see on a computer monitor now and probably for at least another decade or two.

The fact is that currently range is NEVER figured incorrectly by a human with half a brain in CM now, since we already have a handy tool that tells us *precisely* what the range to anything is. So that is out as an objection.

The benefit to be had from the grid is that it allows the player to see the countour much, much better. Is anyone claiming that in "real life" the cannot tell if there is a hill directly in front of them, the way it can easily happen in CM?

I will probably not use the grid just because I do think it takes away from the visual appeal of the game. But to say it is gamey or a crutch is ridiculous. It clearly is not.

Jeff Heidman

[Los]

"Is anyone claiming that in "real life" the cannot tell if there is a hill directly in front of them, the way it can easily happen in CM?"

Sure, fly in a helicopter at 200 feet as if you are when most people are passing orders at view level 3 or so and it is easy to miss variations in terrain that would be seen ground level (view 1). Common sense.

Count me as one of those that just gets off his ass and down into view mode one if I need to know what something looks like. Other than that I could care less. However what's the next "tool" gonna look like and the next one and the next one? Pretty soon the designers intent will be a long lost and the game will be something else. And next year science will be cloning borgs that will take over the world!

Los

[This message has been edited by Los (edited 07-22-2000).]

[Guest *Captain Foobar*]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I hear that Cap'n<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>hmmm...guess I go with foobar here...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Captain Foobar said it best<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Guess I'm with the Captain on this one.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Captain Foobar is the coolest guy I know... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

GOD, I never really realised how wonderful I am..... I am so lucky to be me, I just sit around and look at myself in the mirror all day... I dont remember exactly where I got that last quote, but I might be paraphrasing..

(Putting on asbestos trench coat)

[iggi]

cut

[This message has been edited by iggi (edited 07-22-2000).]

[Seanachai]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by iggi:

Yes, from your unit. But if I want to measure the distance from a point behind the enemy, (looking for good flanking manouver jump points), the grid will help.

I'm not saying that I would be so anal as to use pythagoreus' theorum to calculate diagonals 8P <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Precisely, iggi, and this is the one area where, hmmm, I hesitate to call it 'gamey' but the area where grids will convey a slight level of unreality (or rather, increase it). Sure, we can all use the LOS tool right now to judge distances from our units, and distances to targets. Grids give the player the ability to do more (if somewhat roughly), because they allow people to pick a spot on the map, and then make rough calculations of range and distance from that point, not yet reached by any unit, and maybe not even yet seen by any unit. I'm sure you could argue that the same could be done from maps issued to units (although the map your units have in CM is way better than anything I hear described by combatants in the books I've been reading).

I don't really have any interest in using grids, but I don't think this sort of thing is a big deal. In fact, it might be handy for people new to the game and trying to get the hang of things.

Still, when the Sargeant Major comes and stands before me and barks:

"And you, you horrible little man, how did you play?!"

"GRIDLESS, Sarn't Major!"

Somehow, I know I will better.

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After witnessing exceptional bravery from his Celtic mercenaries, Alexander the Great called them to him and asked if there was anything they feared. They told him nothing, except that the sky might fall on their heads.

[EZJCA]

Personally, I like it. And for those who don't, then don't use it, but thanks for providing it. My next question is when's the Mac version coming out? Thanks,

EZ

[iggi]

Ya I brought up Pythagoreus' theorum but you don't have to be that fancy. Even without a grid, a piece of paper marked with tick marks will work anyway in a standard 5+ view.

So a grid is really just a way to give you a better 3D feeling for those of us that don't like getting down on our hands and knees.

[Bastables]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jeff Heidman:

That is just plain untrue. Your eyes are binocular, and use the difference between the pictures generated by two eyes a few inches apart to see depth. It is not 2d in the least.

Further, the way in which your eyes do this is totally dependent upon the fact that the human eye can see resolutions an order of magnitude finer than anything you will see on a computer monitor now and probably for at least another decade or two.

The fact is that currently range is NEVER figured incorrectly by a human with half a brain in CM now, since we already have a handy tool that tells us *precisely* what the range to anything is. So that is out as an objection.

The benefit to be had from the grid is that it allows the player to see the countour much, much better. Is anyone claiming that in "real life" the cannot tell if there is a hill directly in front of them, the way it can easily happen in CM?

I will probably not use the grid just because I do think it takes away from the visual appeal of the game. But to say it is gamey or a crutch is ridiculous. It clearly is not.

Jeff Heidman

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Never said anything like that my dear boy, I meant to imply that one should not hide behind reality if one chooses to utilise the grid. In this case reality is a specious argument when dealing with this aspect of the game. In the end it’s the individuals choice.

Oh and in the end it is the brain which mesh’s the differing pictures to create a 3d image of the world. Your eyes by themselves 'see' things in 2d. Remember the eyes are linked to the brain, not each other.

[This message has been edited by Bastables (edited 07-22-2000).]

[Seanachai]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bastables:

Remember the eyes are linked to the brain, not each other.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I categorically deny that! My eyes are directly connected to my stomach, and certain unmentionable regions even further south. The idea that my brain might be involved in the process is completely indefensible on the basis of my day to day behaviour. If I went with your questionable theory of physiology, it would raise disturbing questions about my mind. I would prefer that you retract your concept that the brain has any impact on dealing with visual stimuli.

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After witnessing exceptional bravery from his Celtic mercenaries, Alexander the Great called them to him and asked if there was anything they feared. They told him nothing, except that the sky might fall on their heads.

[Fionn]

Actually the eyes are the only external sensory organs which are direct outgrowths of the brain. They aren't like the ears etc where nerves link them to the brain. They are actually direct outgrowths.

This funky medical trivia moment was brought to you by Doctor Hack and Slash, for all your amputatory needs .

[Jeff Heidman]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Los:

"Is anyone claiming that in "real life" the cannot tell if there is a hill directly in front of them, the way it can easily happen in CM?"

Sure, fly in a helicopter at 200 feet as if you are when most people are passing orders at view level 3 or so and it is easy to miss variations in terrain that would be seen ground level (view 1). Common sense.[This message has been edited by Los (edited 07-22-2000).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OK, I will concede that the grid is unnecessary for everyone who plays the game strictly in the first person view.

Oh, wait, sorry, you cannot always tell what would be obvious elevation changes even at level 1. Guess that is out.

Anyway, for those of us for whom CM is something more than a large multi-persona game of Quake, the grid is perfectly reasonable, depending on the tastes of each gamer.

Jeff

[Kevin Peltz]

The first thing I thought of was comparing games that I have that also use grids: Alpha Centauri, Chaos Gate, Final Liberation, and S.M.'s Gettysburg. The only one of the four that I don't use the grid on is S.M.'s Gettsyburg, mostly because it is ugly enough to knock a buzzard off a ****-wagon. The other three are unobtrusive, and this new grid thingie looks just fine to me. I am too lazy to count squares, the LOS tool is good enough for distances. I have no trouble finding hull-down posits. But the grid will help to get a better feel for the terrain with just a glance- this will be important when TCP/IP comes in, and my opponent is trying to climb out of the chat box screaming at me to hurry up with my frigging move, will ya already?