Guest Scott Clinton Posted June 8, 2000 Share Posted June 8, 2000 <HTML> <FONT SIZE=2> JWorthing:</P><DIR> <DIR> Hey, at 28-29 secs into the turn, there is something that seems to come out from the stug that is doing the smoking laying. It's a grey ball that flies into the air and into the church. What is that??? it pops out right after the stug shoots a round of smoke at 28-29 seconds into the turn.</P></DIR> </DIR> This is the Nahverteidigungswaffe. An anti-personel weapon on the Stugs.</P> ...And that's all I will say about this one...and only because no one else saw fit to answer your question. Sorry, but you can do a search if you need more info.</P></FONT></BODY> </HTML> ------------------ Please note: The above is solely the opinion of 'The Grumbling Grognard' and reflects no one else's views but his own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aka_tom_w Posted June 8, 2000 Share Posted June 8, 2000 HOLY KO'd three Stugs in One turn Batman!! I would never have believed that if I had not seen it here first, I thought the Sherm in there was a gonner for sure! The German may as well surrender right now with four Sherm's left its over for the Krout, sorry to say it! oh well start up another one Brilliant advance by the American's Very interesting thanks for sharing.... -tom w ------------------ <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> "Have you thanked BTS by buying your SECOND copy of CM yet?" <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TargetDrone Posted June 8, 2000 Share Posted June 8, 2000 i have been right!! all 3 stugs down and the sherman survived... because you asked.. yes, one squad got off a shot with a faust... didnt see it first, but i heard the sond, and when comparing their stats i found that the left one (looking in the direction of your enemy) had initially 2 fausts but then only one... after close examining the scene, i saw that it missed (just as i predicted ) and nearly hit your own stug... which was blown out by the far sherman shortly after... that leads me to a question... would it have been possible for his own squad to faust his Stug? and if so... would it have been shown as kill on the units statistics? and would he be able to execute them for that fault? Who knows the answers? ------------------ TargetDrone who has a heart for smilies and will defend their rights .... even if the cost is bloody.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canadian Weasel Posted June 8, 2000 Share Posted June 8, 2000 It is I. The Weasel. The Allied General. Sgt. Johnson pulled off my amazing ballsy plan and charged three enemy vehicles. He killed them all and lived to tell the tale. That tank ended up with 11 enemy casualties, 1 captured and three vehicle kills (Somewhere around turn 15). Toad took your advice and surrendered. Sgt. Johnson has been given some R&R. The Weasel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott C Posted June 8, 2000 Share Posted June 8, 2000 Does anyone know for sure why the last StuG didn't fire? Seemed like it was too close, maybe, and backing up would have given the other 3 even better shots. ------------------ Questions, comments, arguments, refutations, criticisms, and/or sea stories? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toad Posted June 8, 2000 Author Share Posted June 8, 2000 For the record, yes - Canadian Weasel was my opponent. And, no - his bloating isn't out of the ordinary ... ------------------ -- Toad Ontario, Canada Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasZ Posted June 8, 2000 Share Posted June 8, 2000 They got their faust off but appear to have missed (If they survive the battle, which I doubt, they should be shot!). What is more curious to me is why the STUG on the side of the church seems to have had a smoke order at something on the far side of the church. Did you not cancel this order from the previous turn and tell the stug to target the close sherman and reverse like mad. I think you made out poorly in this exchange, loseing 2 STUGS you could have expected, maybe even the 3rd when we consider the positions of the friendly supporting shermans, but not getting at least one sherman was unlucky. I'd not given in just yet, perhaps you can still get that sherman (though I didn't look carefully) and your opponent has shown he doesn't respect your AT killing abilities to much, perhaps he'll blunder his other tanks to near the forest on the German right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TargetDrone Posted June 8, 2000 Share Posted June 8, 2000 ThomasZ wrote <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> I'd not given in just yet, perhaps you can still get that sherman (though I didn't look carefully) and your opponent has shown he doesn't respect your AT killing abilities to much, perhaps he'll blunder his other tanks to near the forest on the German right. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> oh well.. before they had chances to take out that sherman... but after that miss.... IIRC the team that was closer to the sherman was under heavy surpression fire and got quite some casulties.... (i guess they paniked too) and the team that got of one shot retreated (so i guess they were paniked too) and the shermans's coax mg did quite an ugly job on them... So, i guess he won't have had much chances to whipe out that sherman with the forces he had locally there... ------------------ TargetDrone who has a heart for smilies and will defend their rights .... even if the cost is bloody.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott C Posted June 8, 2000 Share Posted June 8, 2000 I must admit, I'm extremely impressed by the TacAI's handling of the situation. (I would like to know exactly what orders were given to the StuGs, though - I expect most of it was TacAI though, given how quickly the situation and responses changed) Let's look at the 4 vehicles involved, shall we? (I'll label the StuGs by the order they died) StuG 1: Faces the Sherman as fast as it can, just a bit too slow to get off a shot. Exactly what it should have done - there was no way it would get the first shot, but if it managed to survive that, it would have been almost even. StuG 2: Reverses and starts to rotate to get a shot at the Sherman. Only way it's ever going to get a shot. The only other thing it could do that wouldn't leave its flank exposed would be to move forward and take cover behind the church... exposing its front to 3 Shermans and running the risk of the original coming in behind it. So, this was the best available choice. StuG 3: Looks to me like it starts too close to fire, starts to reverse to get room to shoot, realizes that would expose it to flank shots from THREE other Shermans, so it rotates to face them and starts backing that way - unfortunately it doesn't have time to get clear enough for a shot. Not the best response, but it starts doing something reasonable, then switches to a better choice when it realizes the first is suicide. Considering that he didn't really have much of a clue what was happening (a buttoned StuG can't see sh**) this was very realistic and intelligent. Sherman: Kills the main threat first - the only StuG that had a chance of getting a shot off. Then kills the extraordinarily juicy target that is about to become a big threat. Evaluates the remaining StuG as not a current threat (too close to shoot) and nails the remaining immediate threat - the faust - while getting clear to reduce the chance of being hit. Brilliant! Moral of the story #1: Buttoned turretless vehicles at close range against a turreted vehicle are toast. No matter how you cut it, StuGs 2 and 3 had no real chance of ever getting a shot off, unless 3 had immediately started backing towards the German side of the map - and given that its TC didn't have a clue what was going on at the time, odds of that are slim. 1 had a chance, but not a good one, and did the best it could. A faust in the hands of a heavily supressed green squad? Again, not much of a chance it would work, though it probably had the best chance of anything there to actually get the kill. Moral of the story #2: The AI is EXTRAORDINARY. A very out-of-the-ordinary, complex situation was responded to in about the best possible manner - and the suboptimal responses were expected given that only the Sherman and the squads really knew what was going on. Great! ------------------ Questions, comments, arguments, refutations, criticisms, and/or sea stories? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfe Posted June 8, 2000 Share Posted June 8, 2000 Lee wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>the stug's only real chance is that he can rotate some more and maybe the shot will strike at a severe angle on his frontal armor and ricochet.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> This would have been my choice. It's still a very slim chance of it working, but the Stug had NO chance of turning, aiming and firing at the Sherman before it had fired. Would have been interesting to see if the ricochet might work. Canadian Weasel wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Toad took your advice and surrendered.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> That's unfortunate. CE is (from the German point of view) an exercise in using your infantry to deal with tanks. Any Shermans you can kill with the Stugs is a bonus. Though not top quality, the Germans have a *lot* of infantry. I'd estimate your current situation is roughly a draw (with the US having a slight edge in points). This scenario is by no means over. It would be interesting to see if the US player could really take and hold the farm house (the German flag in the road near the wheat field) without losing his grip on the Church area. If you guys still have the last saved games before the surrender, it might be an interesting fight to resume. Tanks are not the only weapons you have on the battlefield, after all. - Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toad Posted June 8, 2000 Author Share Posted June 8, 2000 For those who are interested, here are the orders my German units had in the final movie. The 'schrek team was told to crawl away from the window. Both infantry squads were told to target the Sherman. The HMG on the corner of the church was told to step back a few paces, behind the cover of the church, out of site from the Shermans on the hill. STuG 1 had already selected the Sherman as a target, and I left that alone. STuG 2 was told to reverse - but only a few meters, to get it's nose hidden behind the church from the Shermans on the hill. I wanted it to stay pointed at the American infantry that looked to be advancing from out of the woods. I didn't think my chances of spinning around in time to face the Sherman were good, so I chose to face the American infantry, and hope the Sherman was killed. STuG 3 was actually told to simply rotate and face the Shermans on the hill. I figured trying to rotate to fire on the reckless-driving Sherman would only leave the STuG with it's side armour to the two Shermans on the hill, once the smoke cleared. So, I opted to hope my infantry 'fausts could do their thing, and face the STuG to duel with the Shermans on the hill. ThomasZ asked about a strange, leftover smoke order. I thought I had cleared this order, but I may have missed it. Very sloppy of me! Canadian Weasel is a little premature in his statement that I have surrendered! I have certainly written to him to say I think he's won, but the game remains open. Both of us are new to the game, and are both eager to start again with a clean map. But perhaps he'd be open to some "what if" experimenting. With some encouragement, Canadian Weasel may even volunteer his Allied-side password. Then anyone reading this could pick up both sides where we left off. ------------------ -- Toad Ontario, Canada Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackhorse Posted June 8, 2000 Share Posted June 8, 2000 Here are some lessons learned in an easy to understand After-Action Review (AAR) format. Stug=good Stug buttoned up=Bad Panzerfaust=good Panzerfaust in hands of green troops=Bad Sherman tank=Bad Sherman tank with turret against buttoned up Stugs with no turretand at point blank range=Good Smokescreen=Good Smokescreen on top of own Stugs so thick the gunner can't see past the main gun's muzzle=Bad Basic German plan=Good Basic American plan=Bad American execution of plan=Good German Execution of plan=Bad American chance of victory=Good German chance of victory=Bad Thanks for sharing that replay. It was fascinating. There were quite a few lessons to be gleaned from that one. Allons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWorthing Posted June 8, 2000 Share Posted June 8, 2000 "This is the Nahverteidigungswaffe. An anti-personel weapon on the Stugs." Thanks Scott Clinton, i remember the discussion about that weapon. Never saw it in action before and forgot about it. thanks again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
von Lucke Posted June 9, 2000 Share Posted June 9, 2000 Well, that was certainly interesting. Yah, that Green SMG Sqd got off a 'faust shot: If you pause the playback, hold the Shift-key, and click alternately the Fwd and Back controls, the frames will display differently each time --- useful in searching for small moving items like 'faust warheads. What was even more interesting was that when the 'faust projectile exploded between the Sherman and StuG, the StuG ceased to rotate for a split-second --- and that's when it targeted smoke into the far SW corner of the map! I think that the StuG considered the nearby AT explosion a threat, and so tried to fire smoke as cover (something the AI likes to do in times of dire stress). Why the hell it targeted the far corner of the map to lay down this screen is the real question... Maybe something to do with it being unable to target a threat in almost the same exact spot as itself? (There was a bit of clipping going on there). And you notice it was one of the supporting Shermans that took the StuG out, and not the one on top of it... [This message has been edited by von Lucke (edited 06-09-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canadian Weasel Posted June 9, 2000 Share Posted June 9, 2000 Well perhaps Toad and I will take up arms again. Blackhorse was right. I essentially had gotten into a bad situation. That situation spurred what would have been called a reckless and stupid move if it had failed (charging with the Sherm). However, it worked out. I was really just trying for a 1-1 to exchange with the possibilty of getting a shot on a second German vehicle from the tanks I had further back. The password for the allied side is: 1052 Should anyone want to play out a few more turns. I think the allied side is now in a much superior position. Please post any results - I'd be interested to see what happens. Cdn. Weasel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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