Hull Down (Again)

[Maastrictian]

Not to pepper a dead horse with MG fire but...

Here's my sugestion for what to do about the Hull Down thing (and forgive me if this has been sugested)

When using the LOS tool the "Hull Down" indicator should appear when it applies. Not just when targeting tanks. The main problem I have with Hull Down is that I rarely know if I'm getting its benifits, its hard to learn when you don't know how you are doing. Tank vs. Tank battles are so often started and compleated with in one turn. So I can almost never see the "Hull Down" indicator over my or the enemy's tank.

So either 1. the "Hull Down" indicator should appear whenever it applies when using the LOS tool or 2. the "Hull Down" indicator should appear whenever it applies when targeting any friendly or enemy (or destroyed) unit (this second thing would be a less drastic change and perhaps less gamey)

--Chris

[Kestrl]

Your not supposed to know where the perfect hull down position is located. You have to use view 1 and good judgement where to locate your armor so they will have good cover and if you slowly creep up a hill in hunt mode the armored vehicle will stop as soon as it spots the enemy armor and should be in a hull down position from the front.

Why have the computer tell you where to locate your armor in a hull down position?

[guachi]

I think he is saying in his second choice that a 'hull down' status should be indicated DURING playback to let the player know if a tank is in hull down status or not (to a particular target that is shooting at the tank or being shot by the tank).

Jason

[Jadayne]

conceivably, the hull down indication you see during the playback could be imperfect -much like identifying units. If you think you're hull down, it might be written on the screen as "hull down?", but the only way to know for sure is to go to view 1 to check it for sure and adjust accordingly between turns.

[Maastrictian]

I guess I didn't say what I ment very clearly:

Kestrl wrote:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>

Your not supposed to know where the perfect hull down position is located. You have to use view 1 and good judgement where to locate your armor so they will have good cover and if you slowly creep up a hill in hunt mode the armored vehicle will stop as soon as it spots the enemy armor and should be in a hull down position from the front.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, I am aware of all of this. I am not arguing for a command that will put my vehicles in a hull down position. I am asking for information that I should have access too (see below).

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>

Why have the computer tell you where to locate your armor in a hull down position?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree, having the computer tell you where to put your armor would take the challenge away (and be unrealistic)

guachi wrote:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>

I think he is saying in his second choice that a 'hull down' status should be indicated DURING playback to let the player know if a tank is in hull down status or not (to a particular target that is shooting at the tank or being shot by the tank).

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is also not what I am sugesting. Though this is also an interesting sugestion.

Here is what I am sugesting:

Whenever I use the LOS tool (when I am giving orders) it should be indicated that I am hull down or not to the given location. As an alternative, this information would only appear when I select an actual unit (friendly, enemy or destroyed with my LOS tool).

Here is why I need it:

Because I will often set up a tank in what I belive to be a hull down position in advance (especially in defense) to ambush enemy armor. Unfortunately I can only guess that my unit is actually hull down.

Here is why it is realisic:

For the tank crew, checking to see if they are hull down to a point is trivial:

TC: Yo, Bob*, can you see that patch of trees over there?

Gunner: Yup

TC: how 'bout you Dave*?

Driver: Nope.

TC: beautiful, we are hull down. Good job lads, lets break for tea**

Theoretically, they can do this for any point (my first proposal above, that the LOS tool provide the Hull down info for any point selected). However, actaully spending the time to do this for every point on the map is pretty unrealistic, as well, the driver with no viewing optics might have some problems diferentiating individual spots. Hence my second option, that only using the LOS tool on some sort of unit would give the hull down info.

Keep in mind, this only involves the LOS tool durring the orders phase. Having similar info given for the unit your tank is targeting durring the playback phase is also an interesting idea (as sugested by guachi above) is also an interesting proposal.

These proposals are ment as a middle ground between a hull down command, of the type proposed by Lewis, and the current situation. I agree that "hull down" should be a matter of skill, but more information should be given to the user to tell them if they have succeded or not.

--Chris

* Admitedly, Bob and Dave are wildly unrealistic names for tankers.

** That last bit would only occur with British crews

[aka_tom_w]

I would like to suggest that if you use the Target tool instead of the LOS tool (they really do EXACTLY the same thing IMHO) your Target tool will tell you if you have LOS or not AND when you select an enemy unit it will tell you if you or the target are hull down.

Why not just ALWAYS check LOS with the Target tool and see where the line goes black and red and where it stays Blue?

Isn't that the same thing you are asking for in the LOS tool?

Why not just use the Target tool all the time when checking LOS?

-tom w

------------------

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> "Remember that no dumb bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country."

G. S. Patton

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Jarmo]

Is it just me, or is eveybody getting this wrong?

If I understood the original suggestion correctly,

you could use the LOS tool to check if you are hull-down to

any landmark. Like "are we hull down to that hilltop?".

Sounds good to me.

To me, it seems more gamey to move your viewpoint to

enemy territory and check if you're hull down. What's that

supposed to represent anyway? Tank commander running a mile

forward to check the tank position?

Also, CM is WYSINWYG, so visual check can easily give

wrong info.

------------------

Now, would this brilliant plan involve us climbing out of

our trenches and walking slowly towards the enemy sir?

[DanE]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by aka_tom_w:

Why not just ALWAYS check LOS with the Target tool and see where the line goes black and red and where it stays Blue?

Why not just use the Target tool all the time when checking LOS?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I believe once you select the Target tool, the target you select will be considered a "new" target.

ex. You have a tank that is firing at an enemy tank. At the end of the phase, the enemy tank is still targetted. You use the Taget tool to check LOS and then click back on the original targetted enemy tank. IIRC, the next shot your tank fires will be considered the first shot against that tank.

Now, please keep in mind that I may be completely wrong on this issue and there may be no difference at all between using the Target and LOS tool.

------------------

Dan

[Kanonier Reichmann]

This might be useful to the original poster of when are you hull down. What I have done in the past is advance my tank up a hill using the hunt command to a point where I'm pretty sure I'm hull down to the intended target. Timing can be critical but assuming my tank gets to its point towards the end of the turn it should hopefully have enough time to loose off a shot. Then you go examine the replay of the turn with a side on level 1 view of your tank to see if it depressed its gun to any great extent..if it did then there's a fair chance it is hull down to the intended target. If not then its time to hit reverse a.s.a.p.!

A fairly labourious process I know but at least I'm content in the knowledge that my opponent has to live with the same rules as well.

Hope this helps

Jim R.

[Maastrictian]

Jarmo

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>

Is it just me, or is eveybody getting this wrong?

If I understood the original suggestion correctly,

you could use the LOS tool to check if you are hull-down to

any landmark.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think you have the right idea. You can use the LOS tool (or the target tool, it doesn't matter which) to check if you are hull down to any patch of ground. (not landmark, that connotes the little blue descriptive words that can be added by cntrl clicking in the map editor)

The alternate sugestion is simply that you get the same information when you use LOS on any unit only.

Kanonier Reichmann

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>

This might be useful to the original poster of when are you hull down.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The point of this post is not to ask for advice on how to find a hull down position, but to sugest a new tool that might improve game play. Thanks for the sugestion though

I agree that this functionality should be avalible for both the LOS command and the target command. My use of the term "LOS tool" above to was to make it clear that what I'm proposing will be used in the orders phase.

I'm sorry to keep restating the same thing. I think I must be phrasing badly as the responces I've been getting are often confused.

--Chris

[Papa Khann]

Maastrictian,

I think it's an excellent suggestion and would make a worthy addition to the interface.

Papa

[Guest Mirage2k]

I'd also be interested in adding this feature to the game, if it is technically feasible. If not for CM, then maybe CM2?

A word from BTS might be good here.

-Andrew

------------------

Throw me a frickin' smiley, people!

Your one-stop-shop for gaming news is www.SiegersPost.com ! Hit it!

[Maastrictian]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>

I'd also be interested in adding this feature to the game, if it is technically feasible.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is already done when targeting tanks... it shouldn't be that big a deal... but then I obviously haven't seen the code base . It may be a lot harder than I think.

--Chris

[Ben Galanti]

I've not been a big fan of the suggestions automating hull downs, but I think this one isn't bad.

If you target an enemy tank to which you are hull down, you get that info. Why should that be any different than to targetting the ground if no tank was there? Now, I know that the tank has a certain amount of height to it (which CM models) so you theoretically could be hull down to a peice of terrain, but not to a tank on that terrain. I say that's all the better that there's a chance it isn't perfect...

Ben

[Sirocco]

I think this solution would work while on the defensive, but, like the "inching forward" approach, it doesn't really work on the offensive.

In another thread I proposed using Rotate to check LOS *and* hull down. I don't think that automates the process as you still have to find a good spot on the map.

And we shouldn't be too defensive about discussing this. It has been discussed at length already, yes, but hull down is something CM doesn't handle as well as it might, in my humble opinion, and I'm sure BTS value our input.

[L.Tankersley]

Wasn't this suggestion (having the LOS tool provide info on potential hull-down status to various target points) already dealt with at length in That Other Thread ? I assumed that was the main idea being bandied about, but I confess that I lost interest after the first couple of pages.

FWIW, personally I favor this idea, but I can think of a few potential problems. First, the code that checks for hulldown status may be set up to work only with two connected units (firer and target) and not with any random patch of ground. Second, there's the potential for possibly-gamey abuse, particularly by the defender, in the form of taking extraordinary pains to check LOS to every possible spot from every possible location to maximize their hull-down advantage. At least that's really only a problem during the setup phase - after that, you have to drive to a spot (and end a turn there) to check HD status so there's a built-in limiting factor. You could disallow the feature during setup, but that seems like it might be too harsh a penalty on the defender. It might make sense to restrict the hull-down information to vehicles with a gun, or to vehicles that can "hunt."

------------------

Leland J. Tankersley

[L.Tankersley]

Here's an alternative that could obviate the need for a special LOS/HD check tool: add a camera view setting to position the camera eye on the vehicle AT THE POINT FROM WHICH TARGETTING IS CALCULATED. Right now if you "lock" to a vehicle in view 1 you are still behind and a bit above the vehicle, and so what you can see using the camera is NOT what the vehicle itself can see. You can use the arrow keys to nudge the camera view forward and down a bit, but when you're "inside" the 3d model it's hard to tell if you're too high, too far forward, or what. Also, BTS hasn't provided info (AFAIK) on where the "target" point is on vehicles, or whether this varies from vehicle to vehicle or silhouette value to silhouette value. If we could automatically position the camera at this "magic" spot we could then use the existing tools (camera pivot and zoom) and be better able to make decisions on whether a given position gives you hull-down status without requiring the CM engine to actually perform the calculation for you.

------------------

Leland J. Tankersley

[Scott C]

Personally I think this is a good idea. Also, IIRC, That Other Thread dealt almost exclusively with various flavors of a "go to hull down" command that are, IMHO, unrealistic and inappropriate. However, this proposed command simply gives you access to information that your units would in fact have IRL, so again IMHO it is appropriate.

------------------

Questions, comments, arguments, refutations, criticisms, and/or sea stories?

[L.Tankersley]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Scott C:

Also, IIRC, That Other Thread dealt almost exclusively with various flavors of a "go to hull down" command that are, IMHO, unrealistic and inappropriate.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh, really? I knew it started something like that, but I thought someone made the above suggestion pretty early on (it seemed an obvious approach to me; maybe I read too much into somebody else's post) and I assumed it at least got some discussion. As I said, though, I stopped paying attention pretty quickly.

------------------

Leland J. Tankersley

[Maastrictian]

L.Tankersley wrote:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>

Wasn't this suggestion (having the LOS tool provide info on potential hull-down status to various target points) already dealt with at length in That Other Thread ? I assumed that was the main idea being bandied about, but I confess that I lost interest after the first couple of pages.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't belive that this sugestion was made there, I belive that thread was discussing "move to hull down position" type commands. I supose I could go and check... but I'm in the middle of packing to go to NY city on Wednessday. Argh!

--Chris

[Scott C]

Addendum:

I just went back and reread That Other Thread . This possibility was not discussed.

------------------

Questions, comments, arguments, refutations, criticisms, and/or sea stories?

[Marnix]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DanE:

I believe once you select the Target tool, the target you select will be considered a "new" target.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You're absolutely right there. But you wouldn't have to set a new target, you just want to move the targetting line around, right? Rather than clicking somewhere (and indeed losing your previous target) you'd press space to abort the new targetting order.

While we're on it: personally, I agree that the most straightforward way to implement a hull-down checking tool would be to integrate it with the LoS (and targetting) tool. Hull-down-ness is relative to a terrain feature or unit, so is LoS. Just have the words 'hull down' appear on the unit whenever its LoS line is on a spot that the unit is hull-down to. That wouldn't be too hard to implement, would it?

And I'd think that there are considerably fewer implementation issues with a hull-down checking tool than with a move into hull-down tool. I won't even begin to comment on the desirability of the latter...

Marnix.

------------------

"A tank is an iron box containing courage." -- Heinz Guderian

[AR]

I am all for the LOS/Target tool idea. I do not think the inch by inch approach or the looking around from all angels-approch works very well. We all know that what we see on the screen is not 100% true of what is going on in 'reality'. For example, tanks sometimes look like they are driving through corners of buildings because the tanks are smaller than they appear. Only three soldiers are seen but they are actually ten. Of course you know this. My point is - how are you visually going to determine how you are hull down or not when the screen is not the 'truth'? You cant (not very well at least)! Therefore you need some guidance.

And now a suggestion. Perhaps good or bad?! This can also be an experience issue. Rookies might think they are hull down when they are not. The LOS tool indicates hull down but you are actually in the open. Vets, on the other hand, would get it right more often. Just a suggestion.

------------------

It gets better each time as long as it's never with the same woman.

Al Bundy

[aka_tom_w]

OK

This is an interesting and thought provoking thread.

I have been of the opinion in the past that the game and the Hunt and Target tool and Hull Down Position"ness" of the game, the way it works now is just fine, and NO, it is not easy for Anyone even those who have played alot and practice, to position their tanks in the perfect Hull down position. But that's OK

Should BTS make getting into a hull down position easier?

Many here seem to think so.

The concept of using the LOS and Target tool to determine Hull Downness to a certain distant terrain location is not really such a bad idea.

I really like the idea of a camera view "exactly " from the gunner's sight in the Tank, except that such a view won't help you stop the tank in "just" the right spot as the tanks cannot be commanded to stop, once the orders were issued and the movie starts to play.

Using the LOS tool to determine Hull Downness relative to a specific distant location may be a good compromise.

Other wise I still like the way it works and I don't really mind how difficult it is to get a good hull down location, because the conditions and difficulty level to do this are still the same for both players.

But this thread does seem more logical and mature and enlightened then "That Other Thread".

-tom w

[Marnix]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by AR:

And now a suggestion. Perhaps good or bad?! This can also be an experience issue. Rookies might think they are hull down when they are not. The LOS tool indicates hull down but you are actually in the open. Vets, on the other hand, would get it right more often. Just a suggestion.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmm, I don't think experience should have a role in determining what the crew can see (note that I am not talking about spotting here). I mean, sure, rookies may be slow, easy to panic, they may have problems aiming and identifying enemies, but at least they should be able to tell whether they can see something or not? Because that's all that hull-down is: whether line-of-sight from the lower part (anything below the main gun) of the vehicle is blocked, while LoS from the upper part (anything from the main gun up, i.e, the turret, or the upper hull for turretless AFVs) is not.

Marnix.

------------------

"A tank is an iron box containing courage." -- Heinz Guderian