The best of both worlds?

[Guest Offwhite]

Question for all the grogs on the board: Was there any WWII AT ammunition that was both penetrating AND explosive? Not like a shaped charge, but an actual shell.

This comes from a bit of wording in the old Squad Leader designer's notes - they included a passage from "Enemy at the Gates" which described an AT round passing completely through a tank turret before exploding.

I've never seen reference to exploding AT penetrators anywhere else. Anybody know what this is all about?

[Trooper]

Whilst I can't speak for tank rounds, naval guns of the time could fire SAP rounds: Semi-armor piercing. I'm not sure if suitable shells of a calibre small enough to be fired from a tank would be feasible... The outer structure of the shell must be thick enough to penetrate armor intact before blowing, and you may just not have enough room in a 75mm shell to do the job. I'm sure I'll be corrected in time however.

DWH

Manic Moran

[Guest JonS]

I don't specifically know the answer to your question, but by using deduction I think we can answer it.

In the Gulf War the US (and UK) used the "silver bullet" M829 DU round.(see http://192.41.43.237/man/dod-101/sys/land/m829a1.htm )

I understand this is considered the best KE (Kinetic Energy) round in existence, and has NO HE component.

Why might this be? Well, a KE round must be harder and tougher (in addition to having tremendous velocity) than the armour it is trying to penetrate in order to succed. As an aside, it is for this reason that the Hellcat rounds break up on the glacis of the Tiger in LD - because of manufacturing defects some of the rounds aren't strong/tough enough to cope with the forces involved, and shatter rather than penetrate. IOW, the armour is tougher/stonger than the shell.

To get back to the question, including an HE component in an AT round would be the equivalent of introducing a massive manufacturing flaw in the centre of the shell, making it more likely to fail (break up) when used in an AT role.

Therefore, I doubt there was ever a production HE/AT (NOT 'HEAT' - I know they were, and are, used) round produced.

On the flipside, a chemical AT round, like a HEAT round, could be used as an anti-pers round since it does explode and create some shrapnel.

Regards

Jon

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Ubique

[Fionn]

Yes there was but it was rare.

To give you an idea of what went on the Brits even developed a 2 lbers AP shell with a little teargas cartridge in it.

The theory went that when the shell penetrated the enemy tank the teargas canister would break, releasing teargas and forcing the crew out of the tank .

So, your answer is yes but VERY rare. I think the SL manual had it wrong though. Probably what it recounted as an explosion was just a fountain of earth caused by the shell hitting the earth after passing through the tank.

It could look and sound like an explosion but wasn't... The simple reason for this is that most AT rounds with an explosive charge were very small (sub-57mm calibre) and the odds of one of those passing through a tank was minimal. Hell, most of them couldn't even punch through one side's armour never mind two .

[Trooper]

Unless the Brits borrowed a few Abrams tanks, (Not happened that I heard of, but then I have only this week seen a reference to a Bradley in British service there) there is no chance that the British used the M829 in the Gulf. The British have always kept the rifled cannon, accepting the slight diminishing of KE capability for the flexibility of ammunition it can fire.

DWH

Manic Moran

[Bastables]

That's odd. I gained the impression that the PzGr 39 (German APCBC) had a small HE block included in the shell. Some of the USA 7.5cm shells had this feature as well, although that is a inferance from the fact that US APC shells had there HE removed upon coming into service with the British.

[Bullethead]

I think many WW2 full-caliber AP rounds above about 37mm had some explosive filler in them, at least early in the war. Even the German 50mm did, for example. This is why such rounds were called AP shells instead of AP shot. But as APCR and APDS rounds became increasingly available, and as tanks got thicker and thicker, the AP shells got phased out, either replaced by the newer types or reverting to AP shot. The shortage of explosives in Germany also played a part, I believe.

This whole thing apparently was a result of the arrested development of anti-tank weapons between the wars. Basically, the anti-tank weapons at the beginning of WW2 were little advanced from those at the end of WW1, despite tanks getting thicker in the interim. So suddenly the guns had to play catch-up bigtime. Without time for extensive experimentation, gun designers turned to naval experience and developed AP shells, just like those used in ships, for the new, bigger guns they were producing.

These anti-tank AP shells were modeled on naval AP shells, not naval SAP rounds. They were mostly metal but had a small cavity for explosive in the rear part of the projectile. This left the head of the projectile solid, massive, and able to penetrate the armor of the day.

This was before the effects of pure KE hits on AFVs were fully understood. Because of the lack of time for experimentation, nobody realized at first that ships are very different from tanks. Against a battleship, you need explosive AP rounds to increase fragmentation, thereby destroying the massively redundant watertight integrity by riddling as many bulkheads as possible.

But in a tank, you don't need to let in and spread water, you need to destroy the machinery and crew in the small space right behind the armor you hit. And it eventually became apparent that just getting through the armor was usually enough for this job. Once this was realized, the arguments against AP shells became overwhelming. AP shot are denser for their frontal area, so retain energy further down range, thus increasing the odds of penetration at longer ranges. Being solid, AP shot is less likely to break up on impact. AP shot is also much cheaper to produce than AP shell--it needs no internal machining, explosive, or fancy impact-delay fuse. So AP shell faded away and anti-tank ammo went the other direction, with squeeze-bore shot, APDS and APCR.

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-Bullethead

jtweller@delphi.com

WW2 AFV Photos: people.delphi.com/jtweller/tanks/tanks.htm

[John Kettler]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Offwhite:

Question for all the grogs on the board: Was there any WWII AT ammunition that was both penetrating AND explosive? Not like a shaped charge, but an actual shell.

This is just too juicy to pass up, so here goes.

First of all, the short answer is that most of the WW II AT ammo was AP shell, at least as far as tanks went.

For example, German tanks armed with guns from 37mm on up all had AP shell (Panzergranate 39) as the primary antiarmor round. APCR (Panzergranate 40) was reserved solely for the toughest targets, was in short supply, and was strictly limited to weapons which couldn't otherwise kill key targets, such as T-34s. The Germans also had hollow charge ammo, but it only figured in an armored role on tanks, armored cars and halftracks equipped with the L/24 75mm gun. Otherwise, it was mostly used by various types of artillery.

It was developed specifically to provide an antitank capability for guns which otherwise would have had none.

The American situation was similar. I don't know the actual nomenclators, but the 37mm on the Stuart and Grant, the 75mm

on the Grant and the Sherman, the 76mm on the later Shermans, the M-10 and M-18 tank destroyers, and the 90 mm on the Pershing and the M-36 tank destroyer all had AP shell as the primary antiarmor round. APCR (what the Americans called HVAP--hypervelocity armor piercing) was used for unpleasant run-ins with Panthers, Tigers, etc.

The British were the exception to the general rule, starting with the 2 pdr., which fired nothing but AP shot, followed by the 6 pdr., which eventually fired several types of AP shot, briefly had APCR, and wound up with the revolutionary APDS (armor piercing discarding sabot). We supplied the British with AP shell for tanks armed with 75mm guns, but the British emptied the HE filling and replaced the fuze with a solid steel plug, thus turning AP shell into AP shot. From what I can tell, the 17 pdr. fired AP shot and APDS.

I'm not up to speed on Russian AT projectiles, but I strongly suggest you make a visit to the links for the Panzer Elite Development Group (http://pedg.tripod.com). There you'll find listings for the sites Guns vs. Armour, On Armour and the Russian Military Zone, all of which have extensive sections on gun performance. The Russian Military Zone recently added a whole new section specifically on Soviet ammo, complete with cutaway drawings. Beware, though, that some of the projectiles depicted are modern (e.g., the submunition artillery shell).

A long post to be sure, but I hope it helps.

Regards,

John Kettler

This comes from a bit of wording in the old Squad Leader designer's notes - they included a passage from "Enemy at the Gates" which described an AT round passing completely through a tank turret before exploding.

I've never seen reference to exploding AT penetrators anywhere else. Anybody know what this is all about?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Berlichtingen]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>To give you an idea of what went on the Brits even developed a 2 lbers AP shell with a little teargas cartridge in it.

The theory went that when the shell penetrated the enemy tank the teargas canister would break, releasing teargas and forcing the crew out of the tank .<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What a stupid idea... its based on the premis that the 2 lb round was going to penetrate

[Guest Babra]

Check out the following link...

http://www.wargamer.org/GvA/weapons/germany.html#Explosive Filler in Armour Piercing Projectiles

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Floreat Jerboa !

[Bullethead]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>First of all, the short answer is that most of the WW II AT ammo was AP shell, at least as far as tanks went.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thought so, but am unsure on when AP shell finally disappeared. When did that happen? I thought it was in the later part of the war for most folks.

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-Bullethead

jtweller@delphi.com

WW2 AFV Photos: people.delphi.com/jtweller/tanks/tanks.htm

[Compassion]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Berlichtingen:

To give you an idea of what went on the Brits even developed a 2 lbers AP shell with a little teargas cartridge in it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What a stupid idea... its based on the premis that the 2 lb round was going to penetrate

Well... You have to remember tht a the time, .50 cal AT rifles ware also popular.

Don't forgetthatfrom the beginning of the war to the end, we see about 20 regular years of armor development.

Clay-

[Compassion]

Oh yeah... and how big is a penetrator on a mdern round? MNot dissing the discussion, but just pointing out that sometimes power beats size?

[DesertFox]

Compassion

The 120mm Sabot Penetrator, which is a tungsten carbite arrow in the german Rheinmetall smoothbore gun (which is used in the M1 Abrams too, but with depleted Uranium core) has roundabout a diameter of 4-5 cm is approx 60-70 cm long, fin stabilized and is fired with a muzzle velocity of approx 1600 metres/second.

It is only working due to it´s kinetik force.

Just an example: We fired KE-I on Castle Martin battlerange (Wales) on a Centurion hardtarget at 2000 metres. The penetrator went trough the hull front armour, the whole combat compartment and finally was stopped half way through the engine compartment.

Now you can imagine what might be the effect on a tank which doesn´t have composite armour

Helge

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Sbelling chequed wyth MICROSOFT SPELLCHECKER - vorgs grate!

- The DesertFox -

Email: desertfox1891@hotmail.com

WWW: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Capsule/2930/

[This message has been edited by DesertFox (edited 02-28-2000).]

[Guest Offwhite]

Very interesting and informative - thanks to all who answered!

[Guest R Cunningham]

DesertFox,

Centurion with composite armor? What happened somebody put some wedgewood dinner plates on the glacis?

Factoids about the some AP rounds with explosive filler:

The Pzgrpatr 39 for the Pak 40 had 20 grams of H 10 as filler.

The Pzgr 39/42 for the Kwk 42 (Panther, Jagdpanzer IV) had 17g of explosive filler.

As a comparison, the HE rounds for each gun had 680 and 690 grams respectively.

Pzgr patr for the Pak 38 (50mm) also had

17g of HE as did the corresponding round for the Kwk 39 (50mm L/60).

The 3.7cm Pak and Kwk had only 13 grams. Interesting that even in such a small round they could still pack in explosives.

[This message has been edited by R Cunningham (edited 02-28-2000).]

[Username]

I agree that these 'shells' had small amounts of HE but were designed to go off in the confines of the tank (after penetrating). If the hatches were locked it would be devasting. If used against troops in the open, they would more than likely bury themselves before exploding and would have a minimal effect.

Also it should be known that DU rounds have a pyrophagic (SP?) effect, meaning they actually start to flake off burning particles once they penetrate. DU is nasty stuff and should be outlawed. I understand that it can only be fired at a limited number of ranges and leaves toxic materials all over.

Lewis

[Heibis]

Username, I agree that DU should be outlawed.

Jens

[Guest R Cunningham]

DU is not that bad. It is really no worse than lead or mercury. People "exposed" will ingest or inhale the dust and suffer heavy-metal poisoning. But they won't turn into aliens. The US started using DU because it is plentiful in the US and China supplies most of the tungsten used in the US. Tungsten is only slightly inferior to DU in performance and it easier to work with.

Would you outlaw it in penetrators or in armor too?

[Stephen Smith]

Desert Fox-

Are you sure about the numbers you stated? (or perhaps I am misunderstanding which diameters you are referring to..) You stated the sabot round was an arrow with a diameter of 4-5 cm. Did you mean the penetrating arrow had a diameter of 4-5 cm, or the initial shell had that diameter, with the penetrating arrow being a smaller core?

If I recall correctly, the sabot round on the M1A1 was about that size (6-8 cm) with the depleted uranium 'arrow' being about 1 -1 1/2 cm in diameter (about the thickness of your thumb). The whole shell weighed about 45 lbs, and was around 2 feet long (all numbers are VERY rough and based on memories about 10 years old).

Steve

Steve

[William Thiel]

As an professional environmental engineer I can assure you that depleted uranium is more of a environmental and human health problem than lead or mercury.

In conjunction with the chronic sublethal effects that can be found with other heavy metals such as lead and mercury, depleted uranium (although depleted) is also still radioactive, and as such will also act as carcinogen and probably and endocrine system disruptor in the human body.

Perhaps worst of all is the fact that DU is pyrophoric and when it burns its way through armour, the small particulate matter that is generated is the perfect vector into the human body. These small particles (of less than 10 micron in size) are easily assimilated into the human body to the lungs and ingested where they get bound up in fatty tissue. The DU then spends the rest of your life doing its radioactive best to make sure you will be ill, and perhaps develop a cncerous tumor.

Expect a number of toxicological studies in coming years to focus on US troops who were exposed to burning Iraqi armour in the gulf and are likely to have increased health problems.

I would encourage people interested in DU to have a look at a Canadian Broadcast Corporation report (http://www.tv.cbc.ca/national/pgminfo/du/index.html) which looks pretty comprehensively at the use and effects of DU. Then just stay tuned because DU was also used in Kosovo, so there will likely be more information in regard to exposure there.

I think the evidence already available clearly refutes statements such as "its no worse than lead or mercury".

In the end, I think it will appear pretty dumb not to just pay the cost of the tungsten.

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Men make wars. Boys fight them.

[This message has been edited by William Thiel (edited 02-28-2000).]

[DesertFox]

Stephen

You´re right, I was writing from memory and a bit unclear. The Penetrator arrow of the 120mm KE (SABOT) is roundabout 2 cm in diameter and approx 60 cm long. The german army doesn´t use depleted Uranium, we stay with Tungsten carbite to avoid propable health problems. But however usually you don´t see any black/silver rounds only the light blue/silver rounds for training purposes, since AFAIK 120mm battlefield ammo can´t be fired at any battlerange in germany because of security reasons. Only possibility to fire the "real" rounds is in Wales or Canada.

Here´s some data:

Armour Piercing Finn Stabilized Discarding Sabot - Tracer (german=KE=Kinetische Energie)

Gewicht: 18,7kg

Kaliber: 120mm

Patronenlänge: 910mm

V0: 1640m/s

Gewicht Pfeil: 4,6kg

Kaliber: 23mm x 520mm

Querschnittsbelastung: 0,57 kg/cm2

Cunningham,

Certainly no Centurion I ever saw has had composite, I think I made a grammar fault above? But you get the meaning

Helge

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Sbelling chequed wyth MICROSOFT SPELLCHECKER - vorgs grate!

- The DesertFox -

Email: desertfox1891@hotmail.com

WWW: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Capsule/2930/

[This message has been edited by DesertFox (edited 02-28-2000).]

[This message has been edited by DesertFox (edited 02-28-2000).]

[EScurlock]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by William Thiel:

Perhaps worst of all is the fact that DU is pyrophoric and when it burns its way through armour, the small particulate matter that is generated is the perfect vector into the human body. These small particles (of less than 10 micron in size) are easily assimilated into the human body to the lungs and ingested where they get bound up in fatty tissue. The DU then spends the rest of your life doing its radioactive best to make sure you will be ill, and perhaps develop a cncerous tumor.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Very bad for suveneer hunters and recovery crews, but the occupants of the vehicle at the time of impact have no such worries...at least if the horror stories I've heard are true : the devistation of the tank crews is complete.

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He who gets there the fastest with the mostest wins.

[Username]

Mr Cunningham how do you base your "oh its not so bad" statement?

I would outlaw it as a AP round and as armor (as used on the front of M1 vehicles).

The effects are devastating and it appears the US military knew it and didn't instruct its soldiers to stay away from knocked out Iraqi armor. I bet the US military could use a few good guys like you Mr Cunningham in its PR department.

Lewis

[Guest R Cunningham]

Well, username, I am in the Army, but not in the PR department. None of the info I have read about DU comes from the Army. There was a detailed analysis of DU on the web that I read last year when the use of DU in Kosovo was first mentioned. Serbs were talking about being "radiated" by mass use of DU. Based on the experiences of the Gulf War where DU info was not disseminated, the Army is looking at going back to Tungsten. The decision to go DU ws not based on cost. It was based on the dependency on China for our supply of Tungsten. Would you want to depend on China for your tank ammunition?

I read what Mr. Thiel said, and I understand the radiation hazards. But the radiation is not the primary hazard, though that is what people get excited about.

Some links to capitlist, war-mongering, propoganda:

http://www.gulflink.osd.mil/faq_17apr.htm

I disagree that DU is "devastating." Any AP penetrator that successfully penetrates armor is devastating to the interior of the tank and its crew. DU poses little hazard until it is ingested.

I am not saying that we should all go drinking DU milkshakes or that it is perfectly safe. I just think there is a lot more hype/hysteria about DU than reasoned analysis.

I could understand an agreement to prohibit the use of DU penetrators. I do not understand how prohibiting DU armor helps anybody. AFAIK, no DU armor plate has been penetrated by any penetrator, DU or not. The armor plate offers no risk until it is penetrated.

Germany, of all countries, has deployed DU armor on the latest Leopard II series (2A5) and just sold some to Sweden.

While you're out banning DU, try to get ICBMs banned too.