deanco Posted December 17, 2000 Share Posted December 17, 2000 Confession time: I have NEVER gotten one of my tanks in a hull down position, ever. Now, I have read most of the previous posts on this subject and I know that hull down is always relative to 2 points, it depends where the enemy is, etc etc. But still...never? Listen, would putting my guys to realistic scale help me judge whether my tank is hull down? Say like I got my tank behind a small bump, with flat land in front of me. I want my tank to be hull down with respect to that flat land in front of me. Will putting my guy to realistic scale (Shift-C I think) help me judge this? Does anybody use this technique? Thanks in advance. ------------------ DeanCo-- CM interface mods: http://mapage.cybercable.fr/deanco/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aka_tom_w Posted December 17, 2000 Share Posted December 17, 2000 Hi Deanco (I'm still BLOWN away by your gunmetal/brown interface, I love it Thanks!) Anyway, with regard to your post, I ALWAYS play with units in the realistic size, and with unit bases on. Now, to get a good hull down position put one of your tnaks behind a hill or small rise, if there is something worth shooting at on the other side of the hill, then select your unit, and target the enemy unit, even thought it shoudl be out of sight nd you don't yet have los to it, TARGET it anyway, now your tank knows what you want it to shoot at, NOW just give your tank a HUNT order to the crest of the hill or rise, if all goes well and the other unit does not move away, your tank "SHOULD" slowly hunt up the back side of the hill until it can JUST get LOS to the unit you just targeted and them STOP in a hull down position and OPEN fire. its not really all the difficult, the TAC AI is VERY good at getting its self in a nice hull down position if you let it do its job and give it a few hints, (like Hunt up this hill, and target this unit on the other side) how's that try it out? -tom w Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deanco Posted December 17, 2000 Author Share Posted December 17, 2000 Hi Tom, It seems like I'm doing this when I play, I know about this Hunt command stopping your tanks in the right position. It just never seems to work out for me, don't know why. Actually my question was, if I wanna set up a 'hull down zone', sort of in advance of the actual hostilities, how would I do that? I just wanna see the words "Hull Down" 1 time on the screen above an enemy tank to convince myself I'm not a complete dufus. ------------------ DeanCo-- CM interface mods: http://mapage.cybercable.fr/deanco/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger Posted December 17, 2000 Share Posted December 17, 2000 Doesn't Hull Down over a targeted enemy tank mean that target is hull down to you? That's what I thought. -john Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jagdwyrm Posted December 17, 2000 Share Posted December 17, 2000 Realistic scale works for me...takes some getting used to still(to set up hull downs)...but now i use realistic scale always...I use shift+b and have unit bases on so I can find my units Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pvt. Ryan Posted December 17, 2000 Share Posted December 17, 2000 Deanco, your tanks can only be hull down realtive to a target. So, while you can set up a tank in a hull down position in advance of hostilities, you won't get the words "Hull Down" until you target an enemy vehicle. When you target the enemy vehicle you will see "Hull Down" over YOUR tank if you really are in a hull down position. Before version 1.1 you would see Hull Down over both tanks, but this has been fixed. And it would definitely help in you play in realistic scale. Just turn the bases on so you don't lose track of your units. You can turn the bases off when you watch the movie if you want to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
:USERNAME: Posted December 17, 2000 Share Posted December 17, 2000 BTS has already stated that the AFVs only have one viewpoint (instead of multiple; commander, gunner, driver) so being hull down is abstracted from the start. BTS also has said that gun depression is not modeled. This is really important to getting HD also. Since you cant really see from the tanks perspective, getting HD is sort of a blind mans dance. It puts low height vehicles at the same disadvantage as large vehicles. The way the game is structured makes you put a vehicle into a position and then checking to see if it can see to certain areas. You cant tell if the vehicle is HD to that area till a target moves in!! In reality, all the commander would have to do is ask the gunner if he can see and if the driver cant! I had suggested that there be levels of "HD"; track down, hull down, turret down, etc. All out there ready to be searched by searching under Hull Down. I believe the armor side of the game is the area where there is greatest need for attention. Hopefully the above issues can be addressed/abstracted but not ignored by BTS. BTS has modeled/abstracted/evolved armor into a robotic death dance. Tanks would not stand still at these ranges and fight. It was against German SOP to even engage at such close ranges. They knew about 76mm and 17lbr BEFORE overlord. So thats the future issues I hope to see addressed. I am loathe to share any ideas that arent documented library of congress factual iron clad proven beyond any doubt to be true. The game has abstractions and sometimes theres a need for what I call counter-abstractions. Maybe not ideal but thats the way it goes. Lewis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deanco Posted December 17, 2000 Author Share Posted December 17, 2000 So putting it to realistic scale helps...OK. I knew that what you see on the screen is an abstraction so I wondered if putting it in realistic scale helps you see what the computer sees. Thanks for the info y'all. I'll let ya know if I manage to get one! Tiger, you're right, I didn't say that right. I meant the other way around. Anyway... ------------------ DeanCo-- CM interface mods: http://mapage.cybercable.fr/deanco/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stealth Posted December 17, 2000 Share Posted December 17, 2000 aka_tom_w : That's a good tip. I'm going to try it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
:USERNAME: Posted December 19, 2000 Share Posted December 19, 2000 "It was against German SOP to even engage at such close ranges. They knew about 76mm and 17lbr BEFORE overlord." I wonder at what times and at what rates APDS and HVAP became common though. I also wonder how come these threads get no BTS attention. The least that could happen is that ModerMatt could lock it down or something. Heres some questions: Does being hull down depend on your size? Does being hull down decrease your silhoutte? Does being hull down increase your armor or just negate hull hits? Does being Hull down decrease your susceptibility to being spotted? How about if we could do the following: 1. Set ambush 2. After ambush you are queried "final?"(Y/N) 3. If you answer Y then you cant take it back and in return get to freaking know if you are hull down to that ambush area (and therefore maybe give a little reversem gears order also in case you aints). 4. Answer N and its the same as it is now. HUH? HUH? HUH? PLEASE? PLEASE? PLeeeeeeZZZZEEE? Yeah right. Lewis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadmaN Posted December 19, 2000 Share Posted December 19, 2000 yes. congrats on your gunmetal tc, deanco! ------------------ -MadmaN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humus B. Chittenbee Posted December 19, 2000 Share Posted December 19, 2000 Originally posted by :USERNAME:: I also wonder how come these threads get no BTS attention. The least that could happen is that ModerMatt could lock it down or something. Heres some questions: Does being hull down depend on your size? Does being hull down decrease your silhoutte? Does being hull down increase your armor or just negate hull hits? Does being Hull down decrease your susceptibility to being spotted? HUGE discussion of this down the page - @ - "Penetration KT..." ---- and BTS gets involved in the discussion several times. ------------------ ***Sôphrosunê*** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kmead Posted December 19, 2000 Share Posted December 19, 2000 This is merely my opinion, based on my reactions to what others have written. No flame intended nor sought. As I recall, these threads have gotten attention from our intrepid hosts. They are trying to improve this area in the last few patches. In addition I suspect that CM2 will not abstract armor to the degree CM1 does. I realize that you all play more ( and certainly write more) than do I so these relatively small issues are particularly galling for you. Keep in mind how nearly perfect all of the thngs you have ever created in your life are. Not to be an apologist, but I think that their continuing efforts to make a very good (towards great) simulation of an intensely complex situation are alot more than I have ever seen ANY other game/sim publisher deliver. Witness the recent Panzer patch that took a year or more to deliver on a game that was heralded as the greatest (Germans do...). The game is perfectly playable, both sides suffer the same disadvantages and advantages dependent on your tactics. So yes all the units in this game are part of a dance of death, thats the point as I recall. As a constant reader and sometimes writer, the plaintive notes some people write come across as strident whines. Please look at your approach, and try to adjust your fire... JMO kmead Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M Hofbauer Posted December 19, 2000 Share Posted December 19, 2000 deanco, there IS a way to check for a relative hull-down position during setup / even w/o enemy vehicles. during setup, place your tank slightly behind the crest of the hill you want to use for your hulldwon positioning of your tank. now select the tank and draw a LOS line (type "L") from your tank. now check your LOS line over the crest, to the base of the hill and to the far horizon. If it is black/red (blocked due to crest) for both locations then you are too far behind the crest. If it is blue for both check locations then you are totally exposed. Reposition repeatedly until the far LOS is blue and the close LOS is blocked: your LOS should be blue to the far horizon but sometime while tracing the LOS to the base of your hill should suddenly become blocked. Then you are basically hull-down. You can refine it so that you can place your vehicle hulldown with respect to a certain location, usually a road or something where the enemy will appear into your field of view. Then, that location should be the closest distance where your LOS is still blue, and should become immediately blocked just short of that location. (I'ld do it with pictures but I hope I was able to convey the concept using words? if not just tell me so) yours sincerely, M.Hofbauer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kmead Posted December 19, 2000 Share Posted December 19, 2000 Deanco: Another approach to the problem is stop below the crest such that your vehicle is invisible from your opponents side. Then use other units to 'spot' the intended victim, and once they appear in the ambush area use the hunt command to have your vehicle move into hulldown position. This has worked very well for me especially with light skinned vehicles such as Shermans, Pz IV and armored cars. Keep in mind that any hits you receive will likely be kill shots as turrets are crowded spaces. I believe there was a thread a couple of days ago about hulldown turret hits. Good luck and nice site. kmead Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
:USERNAME: Posted December 19, 2000 Share Posted December 19, 2000 Humus: thanks for the tip. Hof: Have to check that out. kmead: You are very hard to understand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarmo Posted December 19, 2000 Share Posted December 19, 2000 I repeat Humus's suggestion of checking out the King Tiger thread, look I'll even give a link: http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/Forum1/HTML/013585.html Lot's and lots of stuff about hull down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deanco Posted December 19, 2000 Author Share Posted December 19, 2000 Thank you very much for all the helpful hints. I especially want to thank M Hofbauer for taking the time to explain a few of the finer points of setting up your tanks for a defense. I just got my ass kicked by my PBEM buddy on a defense, so if he wants a rematch, I will be sure to try this stuff out. I also wanna thank everyone for the compliments on my Gunmetal mod. I DO appreciate them, and I'm happy that someone, somewhere, is getting use out of something I made. As some of you may know, I'm a musician by trade, and a lot of times we play in front of 2 or 5 or 10 people. I don't really feel I'm getting a decent return on investment in these cases, if you get my meaning. I'm not talking about money here. I'm talking 'effort expended' compared to 'total positive effect caused'. In fact, many times it's just downright absurd, certain gigs I've done. So I must admit that making these interfaces gives me a good 'return on investment'. Of course, so does playing in front of 1000 people. And I thank BTS for allowing me to express myself like this and giving me the chance to make what I consider to be a truly great game that little bit better. Later, ------------------ DeanCo-- CM interface mods: http://mapage.cybercable.fr/deanco/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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