Bastables Posted February 9, 2000 Share Posted February 9, 2000 It’s pedantic its small minded, but there is a burning need to know, in my mind J how long it takes for the Panther to turn its turret a full 360 degrees. This has for some reason irritated me beyond belief in Panzer elite where all German tanks are rated at 35 sec for one 360 revolution, irrespective of hydraulic traverse (Panther and Tiger), electric transverse (PIV G/H), or just plain manual (PIII and the PIV J). Actually come to think of it I’m not sure how one would go about testing this, bugger L Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted February 9, 2000 Share Posted February 9, 2000 LOL. Well I had a long email discussion about turret traverse speeds with someone a couple of months ago... I got the fun job of researching turret traverse speeds for all the tanks in SSI's Panzer Commander when I was doing some data correction on it about a year ago and I will tell you a couple of home truths. 1. MANY tanks had variable speeds of traverse. E.g. the Panther's traverse was linked by a syncromesh gear to its drive system so the engine HAD to be on for the turret to turn and the turret turned at different speeds depending on how many RPMs the engine was doing . 2. There are LOTS of gaps in data. LOTS . With that said it was possible to get good data for most tanks and get pretty close for most of the others. Anyways, the deal is that the Panther the IV J etc etc have much slower turret traverses than Allied tanks. Generally I found it best to assume that ALL tanks in combat would run their engines at 100% and thus choose the fastest turret traverse possible as the norm. I assume that's what BTS has done. In any case the basic point is that a German tank commander WILL notice that the turrets on his tanks traverse much more slowly then those on the damned Shermans. Often, in a close range knifefight the turret traverse speed is what separates the dead from the living too I've noticed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bastables Posted February 9, 2000 Author Share Posted February 9, 2000 Hmmm thats my sticking point, "1. MANY tanks had variable speeds of traverse. E.g. the Panther's traverse was linked by a syncromesh gear to its drive system so the engine HAD to be on for the turret to turn and the turret turned at different speeds depending on how many RPMs the engine was doing. " Panzer elite had the Panthers traverse coded at 35 sec max which is a little low in light of my experiance with the Panther A at the Saumur Museum: at 2500rpm 17 sec 360 deg, to the right and 18 sec 360 deg to the left. (or was it the other way around ). I know its slower than the shermans on ice performance, but is it the correct slow [This message has been edited by Bastables (edited 02-09-2000).] [This message has been edited by Bastables (edited 02-09-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted February 9, 2000 Share Posted February 9, 2000 on a similar note, i believe some US AFV's had gyro-stabilizer's i.e. accuracy was not impaired when targeting while moving. in fact, (i found this hard to believe) US tanks were likely to have a better chance of hitting the target WHILE MOVING. ok, we HAVE to throw that out, right? but is the gyro a plus? and taken into account in CM? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Babra Posted February 9, 2000 Share Posted February 9, 2000 I've read in a few different places that US tankers frequently disabled their gyros due to insufficient familiarization. I think only "veteran" or better crews should be able to take advantage of them. That's just my humble opinion, so please don't make me die a lot now ------------------ Floreat Jerboa ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt.Morgue Posted February 9, 2000 Share Posted February 9, 2000 Sarge i may be wrong , but from my knowage as an ex-tanker , the first american tank to have a gyro for the main gun was the M80 (know as the M1),my personal experince just goes back as far as the M48 , but i am fairly sure the models before (M4 to M47) didn't have gyros either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalem Posted February 9, 2000 Share Posted February 9, 2000 All US tanks (not TDs) were equipped with gyrostablizers from the M3 "Stuart" onward. I have also read secondary sources indicating that the stabilizer was often disconnected in the field, but I have never read anything authoritative on that. So far the common gaming technique seems to be what has been mentioned: "let the Veteran crews have them". It seems like a reasonable way to handle it. I have no knowledge of how the issue is dealt with in CM. As long as the Shermans have that fast traverse I'm a happy guy. I myself am looking forward to lighting up lots of MkIVs and most of the rest of the German junkyard with Sherman platoons. -dalem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gromit Posted February 9, 2000 Share Posted February 9, 2000 Barbara... I mean Babra! has the right of it from everything I have ever read, heard, etc. My recollection is that the later shermans had the gyro stab equipment, but lack of proficiency training and the gun's (and hence the breech) propensity to move around in a somewhat unpredictable manner lead the crews (for the most part) to disable them. I can see it now- "@$!!*&!! That's the third time the breech has left a mark! Shut it off!!" ) Oh well, till Fionn can tell us that his research turned up sufficient evidence that the veteran crews used the gyros, I think we are out of luck. Just my 2 cents, Cheers, Gromit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon Posted February 9, 2000 Share Posted February 9, 2000 Actually I think that various M4 models had the gyro. I'm not an expert at all, but I'm sure that at least the "Easy Eight" (M4A3E8) had it. It might not have been very useful (I heard that many crews turned it off, actually, because the moving barrel was a risk for the loader and gunner) but it certainly was there. PS. Argh, it's a sure sign of a busy board when there are already two replies by the time you've finished typing... [This message has been edited by Moon (edited 02-09-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
howardb Posted February 9, 2000 Share Posted February 9, 2000 Christ what a lot of data you guys got. I humbly take my hat off and go sit in my corner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted February 9, 2000 Share Posted February 9, 2000 Bastables, PE is as you suspected WAY off. Your figures are the same ones we are using IIRC. The Panther is one of the better documented tanks in terms of turret rotation speed. We had three books with roughly the same data (around 15 sec IIRC). Our understanding is that the Gyros were disabled ("oops. Accidentally put this here shell casing through it. Imagine that?" ) for all the reasons mentioned. I also thought I read that they were marginally prone to failure so that crews might also have disabled them to make sure they didn't get left hanging when the moment of truth came about. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted February 10, 2000 Share Posted February 10, 2000 Bastables, That 18 second figure is very close. I've heard the 360 rotation listed as being between 13 and 18 seconds for the Panther (the working model at Samur is a godsend for historical research though). Gyros on US tanks is another fun topic on which there isn't any conclusive data but lots of speculation. basically it seems that US tanks from the M3 on had them but that VERY often they were disabled by crews in the field.. All too often it seems that the stabilisation of the gun would result in the loader not being able to load while moving as quickly, dropped shell cases, the gun not being aimed at the point it was aimed at a second before etc. Also there does seem to have been a problem with the gyro sometimes getting stuck and causing the main gun to be jammed in some godawful and useless elevation thus bringing quick death to the unlucky crew. Basically it reduced the crew's confidence in their weapon and as such was generally disabled by them... Anyways Gyros were chrome for tanks just like engine governors on the Abrams. Crews disable them too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bastables Posted February 10, 2000 Author Share Posted February 10, 2000 Thanks chaps, it is appreciated Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DesertFox Posted February 10, 2000 Share Posted February 10, 2000 Ahhh an interesting ON TOPIC Thread Here´s some stuff concerning turret traverse: To quickly traverse onto a target, the Panther was outfitted with a hydraulic motor for the turret drive. In the AusfD, the hydraulic drive traversed the turret at a maximum rate of 360 degrees in 60 seconds independent of the engine speed. An improved hydraulic traverse was introduced with the Ausf.A in which the speed at which the turret was traversed under power was dependent on the engine speed. At the maximum allowable engine speed of 3000 rpm, the turret could be traversed at a maximum rate of 360 degrees in 15 seconds. After November 1943, with the HL 230 P30 governed at 2500 rpm, the turret traverse speed decreased to a maximum of 360 degrees in 18 seconds. The hydraulic traverse enabled coarse laying for the gunner to quickly acquire the selected target within the viewing field of the sight. Fine adjustment (laying the target onto the peak of the proper triangle in the sight reticle) was accomplished using the gunner's hand traverse and hand elevation wheels. If the power traverse failed the gunner could traverse the turret by hand. The gunner could be assisted by the loader using the auxiliary hand traverse. Helge ============== Sbelling chequed wyth MICROSOFT SPELLCHECKER - vorgs grate! - The DesertFox - Email: desertfox1891@hotmail.com WWW: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Capsule/2930/ [This message has been edited by DesertFox (edited 02-10-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bastables Posted February 11, 2000 Author Share Posted February 11, 2000 Steve, Don't suppose you could give the speed of the 360 deg turn for the sherman? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pirate Posted February 11, 2000 Share Posted February 11, 2000 My Uncle Bud said that he kicked his out because he was tired of gettin wacked in the head by that dad blamed gun swingin around and up and down in the turret. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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