Maximus Posted June 17, 2000 Share Posted June 17, 2000 A show on the History Channel. Apparently it's a series (or one-time show) of historians asking "What If" in historical events. The 2 hour episode that was on tonight, Friday, detailed the 20th Century Wars. One interesting point was concerning WWI. The historians had an interesting viewpoint on the way Britain joined the War. They said that if Britain hadn't declared War on Germany and left France to fend for itself that Germany could have easily won the war, preventing Germany's "bad taste" after their eventual loss in 1918. So therefore there would have never been WWII!! Germany invaded France for France's territorial gain (Alsace-Lorraine) from the Franco-Prussian War in 1870. Then they went on to follow Hitler's regiment and they said that Hitler narrowly escaped death several times. One where only 1200 men from his group survived out of (didn't catch how many) and one was of course Hitler. Actually Hitler could have been a world renowned artist if he was good enough. Then in the Battle of Britain, if the German bomber group didn't accidently drop their bombs on London, the Germans would have probably beaten the British. For Churchill decided to bomb Berlin which infuriated Hitler causing Hitler to change the plan to commence bombing Britain's cities. If Hitler didn't get infuriated, then the plan would have never changed. Those are just some of the examples. ------------------ "I for one, am pretty damn close to Genius"--Ol' Blood & Maximus [This message has been edited by Maximus (edited 06-17-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Pillar Posted June 17, 2000 Share Posted June 17, 2000 There are lots of examples where German High Command screwed up strategically. Rommel hated them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berlichtingen Posted June 17, 2000 Share Posted June 17, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Germany invaded France for France's territorial gain (Alsace-Lorraine) from the Franco-Prussian War in 1870<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Given that the French got beaten rather badly in that war, I doubt they got any territorial gains [This message has been edited by Berlichtingen (edited 06-17-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoenix Posted June 17, 2000 Share Posted June 17, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Maximus: A show on the History Channel. Then in the Battle of Britain, if the German bomber group didn't accidently drop their bombs on London, the Germans would have probably beaten the British. For Churchill decided to bomb Berlin which infuriated Hitler causing Hitler to change the plan to commence bombing Britain's cities. If Hitler didn't get infuriated, then the plan would have never changed. Those are just some of the examples. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Accidently dropped bombs on London?????? I had *always* understood that it was Churchill who decided to hit Berlin first. And after that, Hitler was so pissed he changed from military targets to London. Anyone??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rommel22 Posted June 17, 2000 Share Posted June 17, 2000 Maximus is right. A group of bombers wondered of course and when it was time t go back they haven't droped the bombs yet. So the leader said, well let's just drop them here on to this city. That city happened to be London. It's a pretty rough version of what happened but it did. So Churchill sais, lets bomb Berlin, So the Tommies did, and Hitler got pissed. BOMB LONDON, what an idiot Hitler was. haha. I feel sorry for Manstein, Rommel, Runstedt, Gudrian and other great Gemrman general, for what they could of done and most likely won the war but were screwed by the high command. That's all I got to say about that!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt. Ayers Posted June 17, 2000 Share Posted June 17, 2000 As I understood it, a german flight got screwed up in it's navigation during a night raid and dropped it's bombs on the first sign of lights that they saw. That happened to be London. That incident prompted the raid on Berlin, that led to Hitler's obsession with leveling London. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goanna Posted June 17, 2000 Share Posted June 17, 2000 Go get him, Berli. Nothing like letting a few sour facts screw up a good yarn, Gluteous. And how about this one, "Hitler could have been a world renowned artist if he was good enough." Well, of course, I could be a world renowned artist if I was good enough too. ------------------ desert rat wannabe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Pillar Posted June 17, 2000 Share Posted June 17, 2000 Oh just give it a break. This could turn into a real interesting thread if you guys would just cool off a bit with the flaming. Sheesh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berlichtingen Posted June 17, 2000 Share Posted June 17, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>...if you guys would just cool off a bit with the flaming<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Flaming? Doesn't that describe the Luftwaffe during the Battle of Britain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrPeng Posted June 17, 2000 Share Posted June 17, 2000 what IF? If grandma had balls she'd be grandpa, If old blood and glutes had a vagina he'd be Maxima, not Maximus, if I had a million dollars i wouldn't be poor, if cpt manieri had any sense he'd think before he posted, if Spartacus had a Piper Cub he could have thrown his sandals down on the Romans and scared the crap out of them.... hooboy. What if I liked smilies? Peng ------------------ I'm talking and I can't shut up! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Formerly Babra Posted June 17, 2000 Share Posted June 17, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Maximus: They said that if Britain hadn't declared War on Germany and left France to fend for itself that Germany could have easily won the war, preventing Germany's "bad taste" after their eventual loss in 1918. So therefore there would have never been WWII<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Interesting leap of logic on the part of the film-makers, but I disagree. Imperial Germany was at the height of Colonial expansion at the time. Defeat of France would have brought her head to head with British Colonial interests. War would have been inevitable. My fraction of a dollar.10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillWoodAgain Posted June 17, 2000 Share Posted June 17, 2000 What if we all had CM right now? Then we would be wasting our time righting irrelevent emails like this one These what if exercises are boring, and the HC shows of this weekend are just ignored by me, its a waste of air time. What if Darius had a piper cub? What if Queen Victoria had died young? What if the US had abandoned slavery at the Constitutional Congress? What if Hitler had died in a WW1 battle? What if the dinosaurs had not died out? But you know, what ifs are real interesting in strategic wargaming, I use to play a lot of WIF. I wander if anyone could put forth the tremenous effort BTS has to create THE WW2 strategic game. Then I could what if my self silly. What if France had been invaded first? What if Hitler chased down Britain as a prerequisite to taking on Russia? What if Hitler had accepeted a peace agreement in 1943 with Stalin? Good gaming stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maximus Posted June 17, 2000 Author Share Posted June 17, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Goanna: And how about this one, "Hitler could have been a world renowned artist if he was good enough." Well, of course, I could be a world renowned artist if I was good enough too. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> No really. They touched on this. Instead of being the asshole dictator he was, he was an artist before elected Chancellor in the 30's. He just wasn't good enough to keep interest in it I guess. MrPeng, I kinda like the Maxima. It's gotta a good ring to it. Like when I "screw" up all your battle plans. NOTE None of what I said in the initial post were my own thoughts. They all came from the show. I just thought it would interesting to hear what several historians would think if they did "What if's" ------------------ "I for one, am pretty damn close to Genius"--Ol' Blood & Maximus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maximus Posted June 17, 2000 Author Share Posted June 17, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Capt. Ayers: As I understood it, a german flight got screwed up in it's navigation during a night raid and dropped it's bombs on the first sign of lights that they saw. That happened to be London. That incident prompted the raid on Berlin, that led to Hitler's obsession with leveling London.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Capt. Ayers is correct. During a night raid, the cloud cover was so thick that the bomber group didn't know where they were, due to navigation error. They feared not having enough fuel to get back to their bases in France and to lighten their load, they dropped their bombs on the first lights that they saw. Those lights just happened to be London. ------------------ "I for one, am pretty damn close to Genius"--Ol' Blood & Maximus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted June 17, 2000 Share Posted June 17, 2000 Ahh the History Channel... Now for the facts: In the Franco-Prussian War of 1870/71, the last of the wars of unification of the German Empire, after the Prusso-Danish War of 1864 and the Prusso-Austrian War of 1866/7 (?), the French got soundly trashed at Sedan and lost the war. Revolution broke out in Paris, and while the commune manned the barricades, the German army besieged the city. If you are interested in this bit, you could do much worse than picking up Emile Zola's 'The Debacle', written in the style of a novel, but apparently based on a lot of research and interviews with French veterans and officers. Zola was a journalist and wrote the book about 20 years after the war, methinks. After the war, the Prussian King Wilhelm was crowned German Emperor Wilhelm I. in the Mirror Hall in the Chateau at Versailles. Just to really rub it in, I guess. The French had to pay huge reparations (don't know what for, since we devastated their country, but Vae Victis I guess), and lost Alsace and Lorraine, or as it is called in German Elsaß-Lothringen. This is the area bordering right onto Germany. It had been sort of in-between for centuries (e.g. Verdun and Metz were at some point German cities), and in Alsace the culture is very much a hybrid. Local dialect is more Germanic, IIRC, but I could be off. In WW II, young men from Alsace were treated as Germans and drafted into the German army like everybody else. Not sure about Lorraine. Now Germany attacked France because of a little known incident involving a hand-gun, a Serb lunatic and the Crown-Prince and Princess of the Hungaro Austrian Empire, in another, by now notorious place, called Sarajevo. Read Barbara Tuchman's 'The guns of August', 'August 1914' or 'The proud tower - a portrait of the world before the war 1890-1914' if you are interested in the start of the war. Incidentally, apparently the bricks for our family farm were paid for by the French. My great-great-grandfather (or thereabouts) was a soldier for the King of Hanover in the the war of 70/71, and upon discharge was given the bricks for free to build the farm. An uncle of my grandfather was KIA at Arras in 1915. Now despite these little oversights, I would concur in the conclusion that the harsh and unfair treatment (Vae Victis again, and revenge for 70/71) meted out to Germany at the end of the Great War was instrumental in leading to the political chaos of the Weimar Republic and at the very least strongly facilitated the rise of political extremism on both sides of the political spectrum - it is often conveniently forgotten that the German Communist Party KPD had no qualms to using violence and murder as part of the political process too. Someone somewhere on this board called Hitler a left-wing extremist, whoever that was should really read up on their political history of the Weimar Republic. Right, everybody bored out of their minds after reading this? Well done Andreas. ------------------ Andreas Edited to insert the Zola reference. [This message has been edited by Germanboy (edited 06-17-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Speedy Posted June 17, 2000 Share Posted June 17, 2000 Hey you didn't mention the Frei Korps (Sp?), and not once did I here poor old Serbia mentioned. I am dissappointed Andreas. Now to MrPeng. . . . . . . . . . . . . Oh but you do. ------------------ IN VINO VERITAS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Posted June 17, 2000 Share Posted June 17, 2000 ------------------------- Maximus said - Capt. Ayers is correct. During a night raid, the cloud cover was so thick that the bomber group didn't know where they were, due to navigation error. They feared not having enough fuel to get back to their bases in France and to lighten their load, they dropped their bombs on the first lights that they saw. Those lights just happened to be London. ----------------------------- If I remember correctly, it actually was even a bit more involved than that. I believe that at that time the Luftwaffe actually had a standing order that they would not bomb cities - Hitler was absolutely against it - possibly because of the retribution it might bring. The crew(s) that accidently bombed London returned to base and were punished for dis-obeying the order by being sent to the Eastern front for what was to happen there. Then the British retaliation took place and the Germans changed their strategy, deciding to go for the cities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted June 17, 2000 Share Posted June 17, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Speedy: Hey you didn't mention the Frei Korps (Sp?), and not once did I here poor old Serbia mentioned. I am dissappointed Andreas.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Well I mentioned a Serb lunatic, and although I have forgotten his name, maybe we can let him count, I am sure it ended on -vic. They all do. As for the Freikorps, you are right, a big oversight, although the main part of my post was concerned with what went on before. For those few here wondering, the Freikorps were extreme right-wing groups of disgruntled soldiers who believed they had been robbed of victory in France by the politicians, the so-called 'Dolchstoßlegende' (translates as 'back stabbing legend). They ended up fighting the left-wing revolutionary part of the disgruntled army (who thought it was not nice to be in the trenches for so long because of the politicians and wanted a Soviet-style system) and radical unionists in some fierce street-fighting in Berlin in 1919/20 (Spartakusaufstand, IIRC). During these fights, Karl Liebknecht and Rosa Luxemburg ('Freedom is always the freedom of those who beg to differ', her most famous quote) were murdered by Freikorps soldiers. The situation was only calmed by the de-facto surrender of the Social-Democrat government to the Freikorps and their backers, and therefore the Weimar Republic at its very inception carried the seed of its destruction too. This surrender made it impossible for the KPD to work together with the SPD, depriving the parliament of a cohesive political force on the left. The right was split along religious and regional lines, so there was not a lot of help either. All this off the top of my head without recourse to sources which are back home in storage. But most of the stuff I actually learned in school about 16 years ago, which tells you something about the quality of history lessons in Germany, methinks. You now know better than to ask again Speedy, eh? ------------------ Andreas Arrghh, typos. [This message has been edited by Germanboy (edited 06-17-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Speedy Posted June 17, 2000 Share Posted June 17, 2000 I must say Andreas I am most impressed all that within 40 minutes of my original post. My mention of poor old Serbia was actually referring to the Austro-Hungarian overreaction to the assasination, which then led to the domino effect of hey if you pick on him i'll pick on you. ------------------ IN VINO VERITAS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Notnowjohn Posted June 17, 2000 Share Posted June 17, 2000 Hitler a "world famous artist"!!??!! I have seen photographs of some of his work. Aside from being very mildly interesting as architectural studies.........he sucked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted June 17, 2000 Share Posted June 17, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Speedy: I must say Andreas I am most impressed all that within 40 minutes of my original post. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Hehehe - I am just an old show-off who has no life. ------------------ Andreas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guachi Posted June 17, 2000 Share Posted June 17, 2000 Gavrilo Princip. That is the name you are looking for. Jason ------------------ Betas available to everyone are just publicity stunts anyways. -FK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
von Lucke Posted June 17, 2000 Share Posted June 17, 2000 What If? The World's Foremost Military Historians Imagine What Might Have Been. ISBN 0-399-14576-1. Edited by Robert Cowley (founding editor of Military History Quarterly). I'm suprised nobody here has read it. Quite fascinating actually, if you like "alternate history". It covers turning points from 700 BC to 1946 AD. Gives you a perspective on things by letting you know how narrow the margin really is between what is and what could have been. [This message has been edited by von Lucke (edited 06-17-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted June 18, 2000 Share Posted June 18, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by guachi: Gavrilo Princip. That is the name you are looking for. Jason <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Thanks Jason, that sounds like him, although it does not end on -vic... The man who lit the fuze on the powderkeg that was Europe then. I sometimes wonder if they reserve special places in hell for the likes of him. Metaphorically speaking. ------------------ Andreas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
von Lucke Posted June 18, 2000 Share Posted June 18, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Germanboy: The man who lit the fuze on the powderkeg that was Europe then. I sometimes wonder if they reserve special places in hell for the likes of him.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Speaking along the lines of "What If", here's something to consider: Princip had missed out on the Arch Duke's motorcade, called it a day, and was on his way home when he stepped off a curb, looked down an alley, and saw the Arch Duke's car wedged in tight and trying to back up! Seems the Arch Dukes' driver had gotten lost trying to find the hospital where another member of the Austrian party had been sent after an earlier attack. Princip simply walked up to the trapped car and fired away... Pity really, as Ferdinand was something of a liberal reformer for his day, and had been doing his best to help Serbia form an independant state. I've always thought WW1 was the formative event of the 20th century. It destroyed the old Imperial houses of Europe and ushered in the Age of Nationalism, and set the stage for WW2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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