Immediately seeing if a vechile is KO'd vs FOW?

[Jarmo]

I'm suggesting a brief (or not so brief) delay between a vechile, gun,

or whatever, being knocked out, abandoned, or whatever, and the

shooters noticing it.

Certainly, when a tank being shot catches fire or explodes, you can

immediately tell the folks in there ain't hip no more.

BUT, in a recent battle I bombarded a hill some two kilometers away.

The hill was covered with woods. I could see there's a gun in there

so I shot it with about everything I have, guns, arty, mortars,

you name it.

The same instant the gun was abandoned, everyone stopped shooting.

Same with tanks, how can you tell if a hit really KO'd the thing.

How big a difference is there between "breached, no serious

damage", and "breached and KO'd"?

I suppose you could stop for a while, and see if it still moves,

but would you? Or would you just pound it 'till it burns.

Once again, my bitching and whining should be seen from the

perspective, that the beta demo was already the best damn wargame

I've ever played.

[Kingfish]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jarmo:

BUT, in a recent battle I bombarded a hill some two kilometers away.

The hill was covered with woods. I could see there's a gun in there

so I shot it with about everything I have, guns, arty, mortars,

you name it.

The same instant the gun was abandoned, everyone stopped shooting.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you have units that are using DF against it then they certainly have direct LOS, so they'll know once the gun was destroyed.

However, if you were just using area fire against the woods then they will continue blasting away until told otherwise. The same holds true for arty (both on board and off).

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The dead know only one thing - it is better to be alive

[Jarmo]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kingfish:

If you have units that are using DF against it then they certainly have direct LOS, so they'll know once the gun was destroyed.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Consider the distance, 2 kilometers, in woods, covered in smoke

from the explosions.

There'd be no way in hell to say if the crew is dead, running away,

or just lying in panic behind the gun shield!

[This message has been edited by Jarmo (edited 07-12-2000).]

[Kingfish]

I see your point, and agree. I skimmed over the 2 kilo part without reading it.

You mentioned that you had mortars and arty hitting the hill. Did they also stop firing once the gun was KO'd?

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The dead know only one thing - it is better to be alive

[Jarmo]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kingfish:

You mentioned that you had mortars and arty hitting the hill. Did they also stop firing once the gun was KO'd?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Everything that was directly targeting it stopped, those using

area fire of course continued. I should have been clearer in that.

[Kingfish]

Then Jarmo, IMO , you have discovered...A bug!

Have you considered sending the file to Charles?

[Guest rune]

This may NOT be a bug. Remember the following:

1.) All HQ units are assumed to have binocs. Seeing 2 clicks isn't that hard.

2.) Game engine is if any unit sees the target, all units see the target.

3.) What is abandoned? It is NOT just the crew of the tank/gun running away, it is damage caused to the weapon itself. Maybe the gun is at an angle, maybe up-side down. Maybe the ammo went up. Something caused the crew to flee, and it may not be just casualties.

Is it perfect? No. Until we all have the new IBM super-computer to track everything shell, angle of gun, soldier sneezing, etc, some things have to be generalized.

Charles, and Beta Gang, feel free to correct me.

Rune

[Howitzer]

Rune,

I understand your comments, but I still agree mostly with the original post...it is often a little too easy to see which non-brewed-up vehicles (and especially guns) are knocked out.

I don't believe it has a detrimental affect on game play, but there is room for refinement here (to which your post alluded).

A good, subtle insight to the game Jarmo!

Steve C.

[Jarmo]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kingfish:

Then Jarmo, IMO , you have discovered...A bug!

Have you considered sending the file to Charles?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nah, it's not a bug. It's just a cool feature that's not in the game.

[Guest Michael emrys]

It is also in some cases a little too easy to tell that an infantry unit has been eliminated, especially if they are dug in in woods or in a building. In most cases in real life (barring a gigantic explosion or a massive fire in their immediate neighborhood) all you would know is that they had stopped firing. Until you actually had someone standing over them counting the bodies you couldn't know if they were dead, wounded, dazed, or playing possum. They just might jump up and start shooting at you again.

I consider this a minor quibble in an excellent system, but since it came up I thought I would mention it.

Michael

[IntelWeenie]

I've noticed dead bodies appearing in the middle of woods where I have arty impacting. Of course, none of my units can actually SEE them but I know they're there! Maybe it's the smell...

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"Belly to belly and everything's better" - Russian proverb

[Jarmo]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Michael emrys:

It is also in some cases a little too easy to tell that an infantry unit has been eliminated, especially if they are dug in in woods or in a building.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yep, same thing with every unit. I didn't think about infantry,

but it's just too easy to see when any unit is eliminated.

Maybe killed infantry could turn into "last known location" markers

until you are really close.

[Jarmo]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jarmo:

Maybe killed infantry could turn into "last known location" markers

until you are really close.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

On second thought, this wouldn't be consistent with seeing how many

infantrymen are left. Maybe with unidentified infantry?

[KiwiJoe]

Yeah I recently read a story about a german tank commander who was shooting at a yanky tank. One thing that caught me was he said he kept firing several rounds into the tank even after the 1st hit penetrated and the tank stopped firing. In real battle conditions it seems that unless the tank exploded or the crew bailed out u didnt in fact KNOW the tank was knocked out. And because of this commanders opted on the side of caution and pumped more rounds into the tank untill a visual sign showed itself or another target was threating the tank.

[Guest KwazyDog]

Hi guys

Hehe actually Rune I have actually had a chat to Charles about this very issue, and I know he is open to ideas. I believe there is currently some technical issues with implementing the idea (and of course the problems with people thinking its a bug ), but Im sure Charles would like to hear everones thoughts/ideas/opinions.

Personally I too would like to see this feature, though I think it would be a fine line between making it work and it being bloody frustrating

[Bastables]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by KiwiJoe:

Yeah I recently read a story about a german tank commander who was shooting at a yanky tank. One thing that caught me was he said he kept firing several rounds into the tank even after the 1st hit penetrated and the tank stopped firing. In real battle conditions it seems that unless the tank exploded or the crew bailed out u didnt in fact KNOW the tank was knocked out. And because of this commanders opted on the side of caution and pumped more rounds into the tank untill a visual sign showed itself or another target was threating the tank.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ahem, its German SOP to shoot until the Veh is burning, and therefore cannot be put back into battle= total loss. The fact that it has been abandoned or killed is at times irrelevent to the Germans. There are some AAR's stating that the Tigers continued to fire on the IS 2 after the Russian crew men were noted to have bailed out. The fact that the German's continued to fire on the IS 2 indicates that the German crew's did not have a hard time of seeing that the IS 2s were already KO'd.

[This message has been edited by Bastables (edited 07-13-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Bastables (edited 07-13-2000).]

[Jarmo]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bastables:

Ahem, its German SOP to shoot until the Veh is burning, and therefore cannot be put back into battle= total loss.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Any idea how allied behaved? Did they stop shooting once a

german tank was hit? I'm sure they didn't feel the need to totally

destroy everything, but maybe they'd still put in a few shots

just to be sure.

[tss]

In 1944 the Finnish army started to issue tank-destroyer patches to men that had destroyed a tank either with local defence weapons (demolition charges, Molotov coctails, Panzerfausts, or -schrecks) or by firing a direct-fire gun.

The badge was only awarded for tanks that were clearly destroyed beyond repair, that is, only if the tank was burning or had exploded.

- Tommi

[Jarmo]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tss:

In 1944 the Finnish army started to issue tank-destroyer patches to men that had....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Any idea who got the biggest patch collection? How many?

BTW, is your PBEM schedule full? I'd like to play someone with

a common language, just for a change.

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by KiwiJoe:

Yeah I recently read a story about a german tank commander who was shooting at a yanky tank. One thing that caught me was he said he kept firing several rounds into the tank even after the 1st hit penetrated and the tank stopped firing. In real battle conditions it seems that unless the tank exploded or the crew bailed out u didnt in fact KNOW the tank was knocked out. And because of this commanders opted on the side of caution and pumped more rounds into the tank untill a visual sign showed itself or another target was threating the tank.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So were there any other live tanks around? B/c if there were, I somehow doubt he would have contd. to fire at this one. Seems a bit suicidal to me otherwise.

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Andreas

[tss]

Any idea who got the biggest patch collection? How many?

Can't remember his name just now (my sources are at home). He was a 75mm PAK gunner who fought on the North side of Lake Ladoga. I think he got 19 confirmed kills during the fighting of Summer 1944 (the badges were not awarded for tanks destroyed prior May '44).

The badges were awarded so that for the first kill you received a patch with a picture of exploding tank in it. After that, you got an extra strip over it for every 2 (or 3, I'm not certain) destroyed tanks. So, the gunner in question had the basic badge and 6 strips.

BTW, is your PBEM schedule full? I'd like to play someone with a common language, just for a change.

The schedule is right now quite empty since my Windows died a couple of weeks ago and I misplaced my Windows CD when I moved. (I'm probably the only CM player who has played only one scenario of the full game, yet. Oh why can't CM run under Linux). I found the CD yesterday but still had some troubles installing the damned OS but I think I'll get it running tonight.

After that, yes I can play an email game against you.

- Tommi

[Jarmo]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tss:

(I'm probably the only CM player who has played only one scenario of the full game, yet. Oh why can't CM run under Linux). I found the CD yesterday but still had some troubles installing the damned OS but I think I'll get it running tonight.

After that, yes I can play an email game against you.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ouch! I'd be jumping on walls if I were you.

My gaming address is: Jarmo.J.Laakso@sci.fi

The one on my profile is work address (I'm working right now)

I'm hanging around at Tammerfest for the most of this evening and

tomorrow, so I might not reply very quickly.

[Dschugaschwili]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Michael emrys:

It is also in some cases a little too easy to tell that an infantry unit has been eliminated, especially if they are dug in in woods or in a building. [...]

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, I've noticed this one too. In one PBEM game I'm currently playing I've had a 150mm IG take out an "infantry squad?" that was marked as eliminated after that. Of course, similar things have happened under other circumstances as well.

I don't think unidentified infantry units should be marked as eliminated as long as my men haven't had a good look at them.

This goes along with some other identification/fog of war glitches I've mentioned in my other thread on this topic:

http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/Forum1/HTML/007257.html

Dschugaschwili

[Sergei]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tss:

Any idea who got the biggest patch collection? How many?

Can't remember his name just now (my sources are at home). He was a 75mm PAK gunner who fought on the North side of Lake Ladoga. I think he got 19 confirmed kills during the fighting of Summer 1944 (the badges were not awarded for tanks destroyed prior May '44).

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nope, as a matter of fact panssarijääkäri Toivo Ilomäki, a Mannerheim-cross knight, from 5th Divisions 24th Gun company, destroyed 21 Soviet tanks during the summer. The second was corporal Jaakko Rytöniemi (a knight as well), who eliminated 13 tanks with his 75mm. Third best was a StuG gunner, with a score of 11.

And the max. number of strips for the badge was 4. The fourth strip came after 15th tank was destroyed, so Ilomäki is the only man who has them all (don't know if he still lives).

About the topic, during one battle one AT-man succeeded in shooting four T-34's with a Schreck, of which two burned, but it came out that they had already been killed by StuG's. This fellow just kept firing. Must have been quite stupified when he was told he only wasted ammunition... as a player I of course would strongly dislike such waste, but it would be realistic.

[chrisl]

There is some FOW in vehicle destruction, but I've only noticed it at very close range (~100 m). When driving in the city or in the dark, recon vehicle will often see and start to shoot at other vehicles before they show up on the screen. I've seen guns and halftracks that were knocked out by mg fire seconds before they became visible. If I watch from the POV of the recon vehicle (often a jeep or T8) the gun starts firing, then out of nowhere a dead HT appears right next to the gun. Presumably if the T8 or Jeep got zapped I'd never see what caused it.