The ultimate VoT thread (spoilers welcome)

[Webs]

I've seen lots of VoT stuff spread out over many threads, mostly questions. What I haven't seen is much analysis/AARs. Here's mine, playing Americans for the first time before even knowing there were FTs and engineers.

I used the default set-up, mostly, although I did move a Sherman over to the north in support of the infantry there. Looking at the map, and knowing that Hill 209 had to have Big Guns on it, I kept my tanks out of sight of it.

Basically, my plan was to advance very slowly up the middle, probing for enemy positions while trying to make hay on the flanks. My tanks took up positions where they'd be hidden by woods from 209 but had clear fields of fire to the flanks. I made heavy use of arty smoke to mask the pillbox on 209 from the battle and for the most part, my Shermans had free rein on the field of battle.

I encountered no resistance at all on the south and made it easily, although slowly, to the crest above the road.

On the north, I had a squad go down into the valley while the rest of the guys and the Sherman quickly occupied that little urban area. I had an idea where the German infantry was, in that little knot of scattered woods. I holed up in the buildings while my Sherman took advantage of the terrain to work its way to the NE of that infantry. Mortars and artillery kept the German heads down and my footsoldiers advanced on them. I also worked a second Sherman into that sinkhole valley.

By turn 15, they were all gone. With a tank to the NE, another to the SW, my infantry in the woods picking them off, the artillery/mortars raining down, they were hammered into oblivion.

I had three setbacks on this flank, however. 1) I decided to move the .30 MG from the artillery spotters' hill closer to the action. It was ripped to shreds by a German MG and panicked, but I was able to move it up later. 2) The Sherman I sent into the sinkhole was done in by a gap in the arty smoke on 209 and was brewed up by the pillbox gun. 3) Somehow, the PSchrek with these guys had enough guts to get a shot off at the other Sherman, and hit, causing one casualty. Tank still worked fine, although permanently buttoned.

By turn 18, I had three rifle squads, a platoon HQ, and a bazooka firmly entrenched in the L shaped woods just across the road north of 209. A Sherman waited north of the woods just south of the lake. That panicked .30 was now stationed on the hill next to the dead pillbox.

As far as the German fortifications go, maybe I was lucky, I spotted the wood bunkers and the two pillboxes immediately, to little effect other than revealing their positions (and scaring my .30 MG). 105mm arty took out one bunker (and the field gun I had not spotted) in the game's first barrage. Shermans at stand-off distance took out the northern bunker and pillbox. Heavy smoke kept the 209 pillbox mostly ineffective.

In the middle, I was held off, but it didn't matter much. A .30 MG was trading shots with a German MG42 stationed in the town. I suffered some casualties, but inflicted some, too, and most importantly, I drew fire away from the flanks. Once I was confident of victory on the flanks, I let the wrath of 81mm of 105mm hell loose. I smacked the positions guarding the roads into Plomville, and Plomville itself mercilessly.

I had my reserve infantry take up positions in the trees on the north face of hill 198 just to pin down the German units on the north side of town. I got a second Sherman into the sinkhole next to them, which I used with arty to get rid of the building with that nasty MG42 - taking the MG nest with it. Two reserve Shermans took up positions behind woods on 198, protected from the pillbox gun and able to cover my flanks. The last Sherman supressed the MG42 on 209 through a gap in the pines.

I pretty much just stayed in this position for a couple of turns while my arty chewed them up. Any German unit that broke and ran was cut down quickly. The MG south of Plomville broke for that lone house, but I had my south flank platoon hiding in the trees there. They knocked off four Germans and the fifth surrendered.

The next phase of the battle came as the smoke started to dissipate around 209's pillbox. I miscalculated by about 10 seconds and lost the Sherman in the pines. No loss, really, as I still had four. I turned the two 105mm spotters on the pillbox and crushed it a turn or two later.

So by turn 18, I had the north flank up against hill 209 with a 105 Sherman. I had another Sherman and a .30 MG at the victory flag north of Plomville. I had a Sherman bypassing the minefield and hitting the road into Plomville for mop-up. Another Sherman was trying to hull down behind the crest of 198 to supress any activity on 209. I had my southern platoon climbing the flanks of 209 on the south, and I had my engineers occupying the crossroads SW of Plomville.

Plomville was about to get surrounded and overrun.

Then I made contact with some apparently fresh Germans to the NE of 209. Two, maybe three squads of infantry and a Panzer. The panzer chewed up one squad on the south side of 209 and then took shots at the Sherman on 198 and the Sherman with the .30 north of Plomville. Both tanks popped smoke and retreated unhurt. I had a bit of 105mm arty left so I let them have it. One German squad made a charge into the teeth of my squads in those L-shaped woods and ran away. The rest just cowered in the patchwork woods while my buttoned Sherman 105 introduced them to Plomville.

The Panzer commander was not happy. He was subject to arty, had Shermans on three sides of him, and no room to maneuver. He chose to duke it out with the Sherman 105. He didn't score a hit. My Sherman hit the Panzer's turret front armor twice, killing it the second time.

And that was it. My infantry had flooded into Plomville proper, brushing off token resistance. I still had one or two German units pinned and trying to get a flamethrower into position just to see what would happen, but Jerry surrendered.

I never got a single flamethrower to fire. The engineers functioned mostly like elite infantry. I just went around minefields. (One squad suffered one minefield casualty when it triggered an unseen minefield.)

Only 19 Germans escaped, and most of those were crew. I suffered 26 KIA, but probably took heavier casualties than I should have. In retrospect, I had a lot more time than I thought I did. I should have pushed even less than I did in the middle - instead of pushing to the scattered trees in the valley, I should have hung back in woods. Most of my casaulties came from that pillbox having at my infantry there and on the south side of 198.

Final was a major US victory, 76-24.

------------------

Laurie Nyveen a.k.a. Webs, member of the WarBirds training staff

___________________

Editor, Netsurfer Digest - http://www.netsurf.com/nsd/index.html

101 Sqn opus-in-progress - http://101.warbirds.org/

[Supertanker]

I was also thinking that we needed some more detailed AARs. Great minds think alike, Webs.

After reading some of the other AARs for the Americans in Valley of Troubles, I am surprised with how quickly many were able to dispose of the Germans. I still won, but based on their response to massed artillery fire (or rather, their lack of response) the ones I faced were made of sterner stuff. I seem to remember someone (Charles? Fionn?) posting long ago that a global morale number is generated at the beginning - I must have hit some fanatics.

I entered VoT with one infantry platoon on the left flank, the engineers and the Sherman 105's in the middle, and the other two infantry platoons on the right. The arty spotters were hidden on the hill near the left, or were sent on their way there. The general plan was to press forward broadly to expose defensive positions, drop a lot of arty on the hardpoints, and shift to the weak spots after the reinforcements arrived.

Thing started well, then turned bad. The lead 105 killed the MG bunker on the left flank with two shots. Then, my 105s came under fire from the 75mm AT Pillbox on the hill on the far side of the battlefield, and the platoon on the left discovered there was an MG pillbox in addition to the bunker on that flank. The first three shells that hit my lead Sherman bounced off or broke up, but my Sherman suddenly couldn't hit the broad side of a, well, a pillbox. As the Shermans attempted to reverse behind cover to get out of the duel, they were destroyed by consecutive shots. Bang - dead, bang - dead. Ouch.

Meanwhile, the 105 spotters were going to work. Now those AT gunners are in trouble! Umm, no they aren't. It took about 15 turns of shelling (leaving both spotters with only one round), and at least five direct hits on the pillbox before the Germans decided they had enough and ran. Meanwhile, one of the 81mm spotters dropped a beautiful smokescreen on the AT pillbox so my mobility would not be completely lost to the fire from its commanding position. The other 81mm spotter started dropping HE on the center MG bunker, mostly to try and suppress it until I could get a tank there for a shot.

As the right platoons moved up through the forest, I moved the left platoon up into a position to try an assault on the pillbox. I shifted the 81mm HE to a smoke barrage, in an attempt to get my men past and behind the bunker. I flubbed the timing a little bit, and the first smoke rounds had just started to land when the troops began their run. The first burst from the MG pillbox killed three of the 60mm mortar squad, and they went to ground, but the rest of the troops kept advancing with minor casualties as the smoke mounted. Alas, their luck got no better. Simultaneously, they found the minefield and a break in the smokescreen that was on the AT pillbox. Some died, some went to ground, but the charge was definitely getting broken up. However, the MG bunker remained silent and they had to get out of the killing ground, so on they went. Bravery served where luck failed.

Just as they were nearing the bunker, Lady Luck scorned them a final time. Another break appeared in the smokescreen, and at a range of less than 20m, the deadly grazing fire from the bunker suddenly wiped out the platoon HQ, two squads, and the bazooka team. The firing lasted only a few seconds, and ended only due to a lack of targets. One lone squad, with 10 of 12 remaining, had stayed in the smoke and ended up behind the bunker. When ordered to attack the bunker from behind, they instead ran laterally away toward the center of the battlefield and hid in some trees. At least they were safe from the pillbox's fire.

It was around this time that the reinforcements arrived. Hurrah, more Shermans! With the AT pillbox still shrouded in smoke (and seemingly enjoying the HE massage from the 105 batteries), I sent a Sherman 75 to the left flank to dispose of that dang MG pillbox, put two others into support of the main advance (which had met little resistance so far, except for the AT pillbox), and sent the 76 to the back of the hill where the arty spotters were. I figured its (relatively) long gun would have a good crack at most of the battlefield from up there. I also decided to send the reserve platoon up on the left, to both fill a hole in my lines and exploit what I hoped was soon to be a hole in the German lines.

This is about when the AT bunker finally broke. A cheer went up from my men. Err, I mean from me. Now, I thought the battle was practically won since the beta AI had never been able to stand up to my careful use of Shermans against infantry. Looking back, this was indeed when the tide started to turn.

My flanking Sherman arrived on the left, and popped the MG pillbox with one shot. That man is out to make a name for himself! Now I figured I could screen him with the remaining squad and the reserve platoon, and wreak havoc in the German rear. I proceeded to do so, and began to cautiously press the right and center forward as well. I also moved my Sherman 76 into position on the rear hill.

Firefights erupted all over, but most of it was concentrated in the center, on the German-occupied hill. I shifted the 81mm back to HE on the MG bunker there, and the crew soon broke and ran. I had not realized there was a full infantry platoon entrenched on the hill behind them, but they were now coming under fire from all four Shermans and some assorted infantry.

Things were going well at last, with the infantry moving forward across the board, the Shermans in good supporting positions, and my flanker well in the back, behind the pond, blowing the crap out of the German mortars. Go team! Then, of course, I crapped my pants when the Panther arrived and brewed up my Sherman 76 with the first shot. Actually, the two tanks fired simultaneously, but the 76 missed. Damn those German optics! Of course, I doubt the 76 would have penetrated anyway at that range.

However, each side had its own advantages in the war, and soon the Panther would be saying, "Damn those ubiquitous Shermans!" I hardly wanted to engage the Panther at long range (where it had already demonstrated its superiority), so I quickly ordered everyone behind cover and began to plan a trap.

Obviously, my best hope was to maneuver the flanker, good ol' Sgt. Upham and his Sherman of Doom, for a side or rear shot. He already had racked up a pillbox, two mortars, and a couple of infantry, so why not a Panther, too? I also wanted to avoid attacking piecemeal, so I had to set things up so all three Shermans would appear and begin firing simultaneously. At the very least, as the Panther turned to kill Sgt. Upham, one of the others might get a shot at its side or turret rear.

With heart pounding (BTW, when is the last time a wargame did that to me? The beta demo, I think , I ordered Sgt. Upham to hunt over to the base of the hill on which the Panther sat, and set the two center Shermans into positions where they could pull into hull-down firing positions if the Panther came over Hill 209. Aside from Sgt. Upham stopping to blow away a Panzerschreck team that was running across the field from the center (Hoping for a shot on him? None today, thanks.), everyone quickly arrived in position. But for the forest between them, Sgt. Upham and the Panther were less than 100m apart.

Sgt. Upham was in perfect position for a side shot if the Panther moved down the road on the back of Hill 209, so I decided to pull the other two Shermans into firing position as bait. The Panther apparently took the bait, and started to move forward. Had he lost track of Sgt. Upham? Just as it was about to move into Sgt. Upham's line of sight, the turn ended! Oh, the tension was killing me!

Not wanting to be passive, I gave Sgt. Upham orders to unbutton, hunt forward a few meters, and hopefully take the shot. The turn began, and after a short delay, he began to inch forward. Now the Panther abruptly halted, and began to turn toward Sgt. Upham, but it was still shielded from the other Shermans by Hill 209!

I hadn't noticed the "slow motion replay" button on the interface, but apparently I had turned it on. The Panther had sloooooooowly completed about 20 degrees of its turn, when suddenly the red targeting line from Sgt. Upham snapped on! I did a little impromptu roleplaying as Sgt. Upham, and rapidly shouted at the gunner, "Shoot him! Shoot him! Shoot him!" My wife looked up from her book and told me not to wake the baby.

Boom! Never was there a more glorious sight than the blossom of smoke and flame from the muzzle of Sgt. Upham's 75. No, I take that back. Never was there a more glorious sight than that 75mm shell slamming into the right side of that Panther and brewing that bad boy up! I cheered on behalf of my silent hero, and got another mean glance from my wife. Nevermind her; give that man a medal, and have the hatches enlarged so he can get his balls out of the tank!

Now I pressed the attack home on the center hill. As the reserve platoon and the remaining squad closed in, the three remaining Shermans started blowing the heck out of the Germans up there. When the reserve platoon finally rushed the hill, the Germans were wiped out, and only one surrendered. The rest continued to fight and died in place, and few attempted withdrawal. I was stunned at their tenacity. The casualty markers did a good job of noting the carnage.

Meanwhile, I began to move the engineers toward the town, and the right platoons up through the forest to take the objective on that side. Not long after the engineers started to run up the center ridge, a huge explosion in their midst blew away the 60mm mortar squad, and killed a few engineers. The rest scattered, and that advance fell apart. What WAS that? Since there was only one, I figured it had to be a tank or a gun of some type and not an artillery barrage. Based on where it hit, I had a general idea of where it came from, but could spot nothing. That made me think it was a concealed gun, and likely in the forest somewhere southeast of town. I replayed the movie several times to try and spot the incoming shell, or the muzzle flash, but nothing. None of my men saw it coming, so I don't get to see it either. As much as it hurt me here, that is sweet fog of war!

In the next turn, I was able to advance one of the right platoons forward enough to spot the gun after its second shot (oops, there went some more engineers). One of the Shermans happened to be able to get a bead on it, and the first 75mm HE round suppressed the crew. Another accurate HE round from the Sherman, combined with the small arms fire from the lead right platoon, and the crew decided to take a powder. I hoped all that was left was to root the Germans out of the town, but the delay in knocking out the AT pillbox had cost me too much time, and only a few turns remained.

The right platoons wiped out some token resistance on their side, and came down into the valley south of town to begin working their way into town. The reserve platoon began firing on the town from the formerly German entrenchments there, while the engineers and the two center Shermans crested the ridge and began firing down into the town as well. It did not take much of this before the defenders, maybe a platoon worth, abandoned their positions and took off for Hill 209. They were fired upon by many troops, two machine guns, and the two center Shermans as they ran from the buildings and struggled up Hill 209. Despite the withering fire and the close proximity (<100m) of my troops, they continued their retreat and none surrendered. The engineers dashed into the now-empty town, firing as they came. They continued hot on the heels of the retreating Germans, as the right platoons entered the town from the south. Sgt. Upham had been plinking at some battered infantry nearby the AT pillbox, and I ordered him to close in on Hill 209 to continue the pressure and maybe take some prisoners. Most of the surviving Germans made it over the top of Hill 209 and out of view.

With the Germans in full retreat, the rout appeared to be on, and victory was in my grasp. Whatever was left of the Germans on Hill 209 probably would not hold for long. I pressed the attack on Hill 209 with two infantry platoons (the reserve and the lead right platoon, each with only 10-15% casualties), my engineers, and the three Shermans. I hoped overwhelming numbers would trigger a surrender at last. Unfortunately, the delay caused by the AT bunker paid off for the Germans now, and time ran out. American tactical victory, 65 to 35.

Examining the battlefield after the game, I learned that there was still a full German squad in good order on the back of Hill 209, along with a half-strength HQ unit. Three other squads there (probably the town defenders) were nearly wiped out and broken. Again, I am amazed by the stubborn tenacity of the Germans. Despite the rout at the end, I only captured one man! The rest either withdrew or chose to stand and die. I surely would have taken Hill 209 given more time, but it might not have been the complete pushover I expected.

Final Statistics

Allied:

92 casualties (22 KIA)

2 mortars destroyed

3 vehicles KO

Men OK 207

German:

126 casualties

1 captured

2 mortars destroyed

1 gun destroyed

4 pillboxes KO

1 vehicle KO

Men OK 78

Sgt. Upham wins the MVP, ending up with 7 infantry, 1 captured infantry, 2 mortars, 1 MG pillbox, and 1 Panther G.

BTS, I have waited 20 years for this game. It truly is a breakthrough, and I can hardly wait for the full version to arrive and close assault my life.

Brad "Supertanker" Wohlenberg

[This message has been edited by Supertanker (edited 05-13-2000).]

[Guest Username:]

Just wanted to add another "Valley" anectode.

I had another Panther get its tube sliced off by the sherman gang. I then wanted to test its armor and charged the bunch of them.

To my surprise, the shermans all popped smoke got it into gear "R" and rolled backwards. I was able to make it past them and hide in the town and make a nuisance of myself (happens alot).

Lewis

[Peterk]

Not quite an AAR, but a summary of my first attempt as the US in Valley of Trouble. I was really terrified going into this one after I saw the description and the horrible complexity of the terrain, but the American artillery proved to be totally devastating and it turned into an 80-20 romp.

Basically, I kept the default setup. I worked my way very slowly down the road on the right - infantry on both sides of the road, the two Shermans never moving past where they infantry have scouted. It took ages to move 100 yards, but I never lost a tank to an AT gun or mines which I knew were probably on the road near the town.

On the left flank - again a very cautious advance down into the valley leading to Blumville - keeping pace with the advances on the right. I wanted all my infantry to arrive at more or less the same time to make a concerted assualt on what I thought would be a very heavily defended village.

Dealing with the pillboxes and bunkers turned out not to be so difficult after all and I think it was the key to the entire scenario. Basically, I allowed the fortifications to show themselves while making sure I wasn't giving them too many juicy targets first and then using the artillery and mortars in teams of 2 to apply smoke and explosives until I was sure they were neutralized. The 105 is particularly nasty and it was amazing to look at the carnage they wrought by flying over the sites when the game was over.

I got a lucky gun hit on the Tiger almost immediately after he showed - but at that point I had 5 Shermans with a bead on him from different angles so he wasn't going to do very much.

It wound up being an easy victory without too much heavy fighting, we entered a deserted and quiet Blumville on turn 30 - but it could have been a totally different story had the artillery not been so effective - definitely worth a replay to see if I was just lucky.

p.

[Ash]

My post isnt actually about the whole battle its about the 80 some odd men who went down the hill on the right flank and the 29 who walked/hobbled/dragged themselves out.

I was the Ami's I had moved my engy platoon over to the right side so as to avoid being ripped apart all by their lonesome. So expecting resistance I moved out into the valley. A smattering of machinegun fire cut down my flamethrower team but ignored the rest of my units. My lead rifle platoon hit resistance at the very bottom of the valley to the right of the wheat field. A solid (what I though) platoon of germans. I moved my men into line with my engy's lagging some. As the firefight mounted I rushed units forward to gain fire superiority over the smaller force of germans. I also ordered in some 82mm artillery fire and left that side alone for a bit to check on the left flank. 2 minutes later I had advanced past the wheatfield when the nightmare began. Machineguns from the ville and started firing into my units. My engy

's on the right flank of the advance caught the worst of it. Suddenly 2 FULL squads of german popped up in my right rear among the trees bordering the wheat field. Caught completely by suprise I tried to wheel troops around but by the time this happened my command was shot to shreds. I called 82mm mortars shells everywhere but I still had to pull my men back. The entire command formed a loose perimeter on a sharp point of land. I sent my reinforcement platoon over to relieve some pressure on the shattered remaints. As they swept over the fire swept moonscape caused by the 82mm arty they found most of my 2 platoons lying in craters shot in the back. My brother (opponent) had performed a perfect L shaped ambush. I got sucked into what I thought was a marginal holding action and ended up with 2 shattered platoons and a reinforcemnet platoon shot up by bunkers.

That is there story

------------------

The names Ash, Housewares

[argie]

In my first game, I set the Shermans 105 in the hill, reverse slope, with the FOs and the .50 MG. Then I put a smoke screen over the AT pillbox with one 81mm mortar's FO, alternated. And some smoke over the MG concrete pillbox. I left the rest of the setup almost unchanged.

The smoke was the key for an easy (but very inmersive) victory. With the german's AT primary asset neutralized, both Shermans crsted the hill and throw ound after round of 105mm directs shells over every German unit that moves or fires.

From then, plus the help from the 105mm FOs, all was a paved road to success

Even when the Panther appeared, the 105s has had a good LOS to it. The Panther took out one, but the other killed it.

Nothing more exciting than the first time with one new scenario

Ariel

[This message has been edited by argie (edited 05-13-2000).]

[Webs]

Curious, the complete lack of participation by any FT teams. I guess with less arty I'd have used one FT team to root out the AT bunker.

------------------

Laurie Nyveen a.k.a. Webs, member of the WarBirds training staff

___________________

Editor, Netsurfer Digest - http://www.netsurf.com/nsd/index.html

101 Sqn opus-in-progress - http://101.warbirds.org/

[Snark]

Havn't heard much about Axis Victories in VoT.

Is this one a lopsided ?

Axis need a increase % boost?

if so how much?

[Guest grunto]

--I should have hung back in woods. ---

what if the german starts lobbing 81s into the woods?... bad news?... i moved 2 platoons through the woods and was wondering if it would have been a lot nastier if the germans had been lobbing random 81s into the area...

in the game i'm in the 75 pillbox was on the far north flank... i took it out early with 105 oba... still have 6 tanks pushing the middle into plomville.. appear to have found an approach, skirting south of the center road and north of those woods on the south flank... all sherms racing through there...

[Webs]

You know, I barely noticed the German mortars. Probably because I used smoke so heavily. My first glimpse of a German mortar unit was a knocked out tube behind the pillbox. My arty.

------------------

Laurie Nyveen a.k.a. Webs, member of the WarBirds training staff

___________________

Editor, Netsurfer Digest - http://www.netsurf.com/nsd/index.html

101 Sqn opus-in-progress - http://101.warbirds.org/

[Guest Big Time Software]

Great stories

Truth be told, this scenario was balanced so that the Americans, if played well and with a decent spot of good luck, would most likely win the game. In exhaustive testing I found that giving the Germans a bit more of a chance when played by the AI made taking Hill 209 a near impossible task if the German player was human. So I struck a balance that would make this scenario fun to play from either side against the AI instead of a challenge as the Americans and a nobrainer as the Germans.

I haven't seen any AARs from human vs. human gmes, but I am curious to see how they go

Steve

[Lurker]

I have walked through the Valley of the Shadow of Death...

I now have played the valley scenario from both sides, and managed to pull of a victory for both sides.

I shan't bore you with the details, but I will make one comment about the differences between my experiences playing each side.

Playing as the Germans, I found my concrete pill boxes to be relatively vulnerable to fire from the enemy Sherman tanks. I lost one concrete pill box to a single well placed shot, and the other managed to survive several hits before being destroyed.

Playing as the Americans, I encountered an invulnerable concrete pill box. One of my Sherman 105's did nothing other than drop shells on that thing until he ran out of ammo. The crew shrugged off the fire and managed to slow my assault on the left to a standstill. That concrete pill box was among the last remaining enemy units on the map before the Germans finally capitulated. At one point I had one of my Sherman 105's along with two Sherman 75's concentrating fire on the thing. I hit it time and time again, but was not able to put it out of commission.

In retrospect, I was glad that the crew survived the battle. Even an enemy deserves some respect for such a tenacious defense.

Being rotated into the rear for some R&R,

-Lurker

[This message has been edited by Lurker (edited 05-14-2000).]

[Guest Babra]

I played it once as the Germans against the A/I and found it to be a no-brainer. There were no American tanks left for the Panther to challenge, every one having been knocked out by the 75 pillbox. All strongpoints were still intact at game's end. I'll try it again with the same setup and see what happens. Maybe I just got lucky.

[Guest Schuggerbaby]

SPOILER

Just finished my first game yesterday and i really enjoyed it. Most exiting was the fact that i had no idea what i was up against with my US forces. I ignored the centre and planned to attack Plomville from both flanks and advanced very carefully ( mainly with sneak and crawl orders) to keep a low profile and used half squats as scouting element ahead of the mainbody of my troops.

My artillery really won the day; even the 81mm Mortars were able to silence the concrete bunkers. The single Panther was only able to immobilize one Sherman 105 before he was knocked out by a 75 Sherman with a side shot. The best moment in the game was when the German Inf gun was shelled by two 105mm, two 81mm Mortars and one 60mm Mortar and nearly two platoons and one MG section let loose their volleys. It was a real firework and i watched the movie from different angles for half an hour. Despite my heavy fire the brave german gun pixels were able to kill 15 Rifle squat members as well as one MG section! Finally the Germans surrendered at turn 32 when i had firm control of Plomville with 67 casualities ( 13 KIA).

If my artillery would not have been so effective i think i will have more problems to win ( if at all), so i give it another try.

[Guest Babra]

Just completed my second try as the Germans. I used the same setup but increased Allied Forces to +150%

The Pillbox with the 75 took out 6 Shermans before it went down. The MG Pillbox took out 82 American infantry before being overrun (got screenshots of both of those).

The Panther was a disappointment, knocking out only one Sherman, then succumbing to a side turret penetration before it could change positions.

Final result: Draw after Axis surrender around turn 25. 285 American casualties and 7 Shermans versus 175 German and 1 Panther. More than 100 German casualties were caused by those nasty 105s, which absolutely plastered me.

[Mike Zeares]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ash:

Suddenly 2 FULL squads of german popped up in my right rear among the trees bordering the wheat field. Caught completely by suprise I tried to wheel troops around but by the time this happened my command was shot to shreds. [snip] My brother (opponent) had performed a perfect L shaped ambush.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sounds as if your brother has been taking lessons from Fionn.

- Mike Zeares

[EScurlock]

I found hill 216 to be the key for both sides. Put my Sherman 105's on that hill as the Americans and took all four bunkers out withen 4 minutes to the loss of just one Sherman. The remaining Sherman 105 blasted everything that moved or fired. By keeping my platoons as congruent fire teams the rest was seemed like a mop-up opperation. The Panther worried me for a couple of minutes, but I got a lucky gun hit on it, then immobilzed it with combined fire from three tanks. The A.I. surrendered after that.

As the Germans I kept my 75mm concrete bunker at the default location. I spent at least 20 minutes sightining in my other bunkers and machine guns ensuring they all had direct fire on hill 216 and all approaches were covered by two or more machine guns.

Turned out to be defelade hell for the Americans. The Americans were funelled into the valley with the road, pinned down in front of mines and barbed wire, then dessemated.

Hill 216 had several body markers on it by the end of the game. The AI put the Sherman 105's on the hill just as I had, but it got frustrated by the smoke I laid in front of them. Picked off the 105's one at a time. The 75mm Shermans also fell to my AT Bunker in short order. Disrupted the enemy attack so bad I desided I could counter attack. Took hill 216. The A.I. surrendered right after that. Final score: Germans 90, Americans 10.

------------------

He who gets there the fastest with the mostest wins.

[Guest grunto]

American AAR: Draw Ami 46 Ger 41

I was US and had my six shermans intact but pushed too hard up the middle with just two of them and popped out right in front of the panther. Lost another tank to mines, another to a panther, and another to infantry at close range, and ended the game with just one sherman 75... broke all of my own rules and the attack got really ugly after that... trying again...

Andy

[DanW]

Valley of Trouble? More like Valley of Woe is Me. I've been playing the demo scenario VoT, and I'm curious if I'm unlucky or stupid (or both?). I first played as the Americans and I dropped all of my 105 arty on the 75mm bunker...no effect. I also pumped about a half dozen 75mm rounds from my reinforcing Shermans, no effect. Finally about my 5th or 6th shot from my 105 Shermans got the kill (about half of those shots missed). Needless to say I was pretty impressed by the bunker.

Now I'm replaying as the Germans, and this bunker (and most of the bunkers) seem remarkably fragile. The AI's second shot from their 105 Sherman did the deed on it. If that wasn't enough my vaunted Panther showed up, exchanged rounds with a Sherman, and got brewed up by the first hit (on it's frontal armor!). This exchange of fire happened all the way across the map, around 600+ meters. I hope it was from the 105 Sherman, I'd be even more sick if it was from a 75. To be honest I was so disgusted I didn't keep playing to find out (that and the game had already suckered me long past when I should have gone to bed).

Well it's a great game, I just wanted to whine to the world, and find out what people found typical for the bunker performances. How long did they stick around in your games, and what did you have to drop on them to score kills.

Finally, just a note, in the demo scenarios, particularly VoT, the German success seems to hinge on a very small number of pretty powerful units. This is fine, but it comes at the cost of play balance. One lucky shot and the German goes from playing to win, to just struggling to get a draw. It would be preferred in my mind, especially for PBEM games, if the games weren't as prone to wild swings in fortunes due to the outcome of one or two random numbers.

Great game, but I'm starting to get exhausted, need...sleep...

Dan W.

[Bertram]

After playing the scenario as American, I played it as German. I used the standard setup.

In the first turn both Sherman 105's pop into view of my 75 mm AT in the bunker. Confident of a nice kill it lets loose. Miss. One of the Shermans replies, and takes the AT gun out. We are maybe 30 seconds into the fight.

In the second minute the Shermans split, one supporting an attack on the north side, the second an attack into the valley. Halfway into the turn my infanrtery gun opens up, and kills one flamethrower squad. The Sherman responds and takes the gun out with one shot. He uses the remainder of the turn to take out the wooden bunker. Meanwhile in the north the other Sherman has neutralized that mg bunker. Took him about two shots.

Needless to say that after this the battle was decided. Withhout AT gun the tanks were master of the field, and quickly blew away every resistance. The Americans attacked though the centre, bypassing the ambush and the minefields. They were held up shortly by mortar fire, which caused them the most casualties.

I tried to delay them until my Panther arrived, but had to surrender before that.

Until reading the posts above I was under the impression that the bunkers were fairly useless. Now I guess I was just extremely unlucky.

(Hope this isn't going to be my trademark. In my first PBEM game my opponent just killed my my Puma in the first turn. The Puma saw some infantery at 350 mtrs, got a HE shot of. He missed, the infantery fired back, killed the commander with the first burst. Talk about unlucky

[JMcGuire]

Ditto. Against the bunker I can't do anything unless I get behind it. But when it's MY bunker, "it's like butta" (soft & greasy).

I'll bet this will be a hard one to explain...

[thomasj]

I have to agree that it seems when you are playing on side you are more vunarable. I have played both sides multiple times in the demo and when I am the AXIS in VoT I get hammered by arty and one shots by the AI on my bunkers and when I am the Amis my Sherms get plastered by the PB75 no matter how I smoke or move. I still come out winning but it seems the AI always has a definite advantage when it comes to spotting and accuracy. EX:

Playing the AXIS in VoT against AI Amis, The AI pops smoke when it wants and comes out in other areas aimed dead on my PBs while my PB75's turn onto other targets in the mean time. The other is the fact that it seems to know my units ID better then I know it's, EX: I always see Infantry????? when playing the AXIS I really have no clue other then the areas ;after playing many times; the FOs pop up at, but when I play the Amis the AXIS AI seems to know exactly who and where my FOs are no matter how I bring them into LOS.

Just really seems the FOW is totally ignored by the AI at times.

Anyone else notice this?

[Splinty]

I'm about halfway through my third shot at VoT as the Americans and that f!@#$% bunker on Hill 209 is killing me! So far I can handle the infantry gun,I just wait until it shows itself and dump 81mm on it,problem solved. But the 75mm AT in that concrete bunker seems to be unkillable ! I've tried 105 arty,I've targeted it with both 105mm Sherms,can't get Engineers near it.

Basically HELP!!! Actually I'm going to try some of the tactics in this thread. Thanks in advance guys and gals!

------------------

Nicht Schiessen!!

[Theron]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Splinty:

I'm about halfway through my third shot at VoT as the Americans and that f!@#$% bunker on Hill 209 is killing me! So far I can handle the infantry gun,I just wait until it shows itself and dump 81mm on it,problem solved. But the 75mm AT in that concrete bunker seems to be unkillable ! I've tried 105 arty,I've targeted it with both 105mm Sherms,can't get Engineers near it.

Basically HELP!!! Actually I'm going to try some of the tactics in this thread. Thanks in advance guys and gals!

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

In my first game of VOT I was the amis and that AT gun in the bunker made it really hard for me. I lost several shermans to it and one to the 150mm INF gun. I took the INF gun and the bunker next to it with arty. I didn't take the AT bunker out until a platoon of infantry made it around the far right side of the map. A squad from this platoon close assulted the Panther and KO it. Then the platoon routed the fresh german troops that come with the Panther. I don't remember the number of kills for the platoon, but it was at less than half strength by the end of the battle. I won the battle and captured all the flags, without using my tanks till the very end.

I've also played as the germans with the amis at +50%. I won with a better than 2-1 kill ratio even though my tank gun was taken out with only killing 2 shermans (at +50% the amis get four shermans to start with). It was kind of sad seeing all the amis bodies pile up on the slopes of the hill next to plomville as they repeatedly tried to infantry assult the town.

Theron

[R-Man]

It’s been a long time since I’ve played VoT, but as I recall, I waited to take on the AT pillbox until after my reinforcements arrived. Then, I would drive all of my tanks up the road (N) to the ridge at the east map edge. I would then unload on the bunker with all of my Shermans. Don’t waste artillery on the pillbox, as it is not very effective (until version 1.03 of the full retail game.) The Shermans should be able to knock it out with little or no losses. It depends on your luck.

If you’re feeling lucky, you can then leave your tanks on the ridge and await the Panther. I have played that situation over and over with a saved file and have determined that 8 out of 10 times the 5 remaining Shermans will at least get a “gun hit,” basically negating the Panther’s superior firepower and armor. Make sure that you have the tank damage notification option on (or whatever it’s called) by clicking the “hotkeys” button at the bottom of the screen.

It’s funny to watch those poor little Shermans trying to tangle with that big cat. They constantly pop smoke and reverse. Just stay with it, keep moving them forward, and don’t chicken out.

R-Man

P.S. Get the full game!