BTS - Allied vehicle access and new variants

[Guest Germanboy]

There has been a lot of clamouring for a vehicle add-on pack (including all sorts of stuff German and Allied). All this clamouring has lead at least one poor soul to think that this was actually promised by BTS. Since I can remember no such promise, and don't believe there was one, I would like to check in whether you actually think about doing this (as an add-on pack that has to be paid for), what kind of problems in PBEM compatibility it would raise etc.

Secondly, in the M5A1 HT thread, Steve stated that you would look into the possibility to give the Pommies access to the M5. If that should prove easy to do, is there a possibility to have Cromwells added for the 1st Polish AD as well? They should really have them in their Recce Regiment, and according to this website http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/8418/21agt-1.htm they did - and they did not have Stuarts.

I am sure other people can come up with more suggestions.

I thought since this goes a bit further than just adding an HT it may be good to have a thread where you can (if you so wish) clarify your position WRT an add-on pack.

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Andreas

<a href="http://www.geocities.com/greg_mudry/sturm.html">Der Kessel</a >

Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission.

[This message has been edited by Germanboy (edited 12-01-2000).]

[gaffertape]

And a BUMP

[Guest Big Time Software]

We are not sure if we will do an addon pack. As you suspect, this will cause a lot of problems with multiplayer AND for downloaded scenarios which require vehicles not present in the standard version. Add to that... every day we spend doing an addon pack for CM1 is one day not spent on CM2. We are already feeling behind schedule due to constant improvements for CM1 (6 patches so far), so the use of our time is rather an important point to think about.

And you are correct... we never promised a vehicle addon pack

As for giving the Poles access to Cromwells... I have asked Charles about this and gladly leave that ball in his court!

Steve

[gaffertape]

Thanks for the response, Steve. Its good to know that there's at least a smidgen of a possibility. As always, (and I hpoe I'm speaking for most of the forum), we respect whatever decision you come to.

GAFF

[aka_tom_w]

From a financial point of view it "should" mean MORE money for CM2 development.

I say this because a Quciky effort to pull together and code into the game some new 3D vehicles models only, could result in more sales.

I would again suggest that any new 3D models be released on a CD that we would all (ok most of us with real jobs) would be more than happy to buy.

I would suggest the ADD On pack come with ALL the current mods that you can get permission to give away and the latest V1.1 Non-beta patch and some add on vechiles without skins. YES that's right SCREW the game mag reviewers, this community is SO generous and SO talented that there will be NEW mods and GREAT looking skins for those new add on vehicles in NO time.

I say this becasue I would REALLY like to see the raw fire power of the Quad .50 cal U.S. half track NOW that would be FUN!

Anyway, why not sell us 4, 5,or 6 new vehicles for each side, offer to sell the CD to us for say $25.00 U.S and see who perorders.

I would preorder and I hope this is the FIRST preorder, if you get say 500 preorders before Dec 25/2000 maybe the project should be a go?

Again Just a Suggestion

Thanks so Much for the v1.1 TCP/IP Patch it is really wonderous!!!

-tom w

[jshandorf]

Just like to say I am a huge fan BTS and everything they have done so far but....

$25.00 freakin' dollars for at most 12 new vehicles? Your nuts. I wouldn't pay for that.

No offense mind you... I am just being realistic.

If I was to shell out half again as much as I paid for a game I would expect to see atleast 50% value returned compared to the first investment. Make sense?

But still.. an add-on pack would be nice. But in all truth there are still vehicles I haven't seen nor used in CM yet.

Jeff

[aka_tom_w]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jshandorf:

Just like to say I am a huge fan BTS and everything they have done so far but....

$25.00 freakin' dollars for at most 12 new vehicles? Your nuts. I wouldn't pay for that.

No offense mind you... I am just being realistic.

If I was to shell out half again as much as I paid for a game I would expect to see atleast 50% value returned compared to the first investment. Make sense?

But still.. an add-on pack would be nice. But in all truth there are still vehicles I haven't seen nor used in CM yet.

Jeff

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OK

It was just a suggestion,

I know there was A GREAT Deal of work, YEARS in fact that went into the original game.

My question is, seriously, how many more new vehicles do we, or the game REALLY need?

How many more WW II vehciles are there that are not represented here?

Can they get double duty out of those vehciles and model them for the ADD On pack and then re-use them in CM2?

I was trying to make a case that would be profitable for BTS and give us some new 3D models for vehicles at the same time.

First and Foremost if it is not profitable for BTS why would they do it? How many new vehicles do we really need?

How many ADD On CD's are they likely to sell?

If I were runnig BTS it I imagine some form of cost - benefit analysis would be required before any commitmant to this idea was made publically.

I was just trying to help out and make a few suggestions.

-tom w

[Phoenix]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Big Time Software:

And you are correct... we never promised a vehicle addon pack

Steve<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

DHoo!!!! But I quote you -

"Yes, we are planning on an expansion pack. More vehicles are part of that plan."

Ok, so it wasn't REALLY a promise. Oh well. CM2 will be a great expansion pack I think!

[Mord]

Twenty five bucks sounds fine by me. I've paid more for a hell of alot less than what Tom mentioned. I like the idea. If it happens Great! If not well we are that much closer to CM2. It's a win win situation.

Mord

[This message has been edited by Mord (edited 12-01-2000).]

[MikeO]

Yep, Andreas is right about the Polish Croms - read 'Steel Inferno'; they took a major part in the Falaise battles. The Polish Divisional GOC even had a famous Cromwell command tank called 'Hela' (decals included in the Tamiya kit).

[Mace]

I personally would rather see work commence on CM2, rather than on an add-on pack!

Mace

[Spook]

For once, I think I'd better weigh in quick here.....

Although I've given BTS/Steve some recent razzing on the M5A1 issue, I do see Steve's point here. If a separately purchaseable add-on pack was provided with an upgraded CM engine to consider the added vehicle models, this does become a messy compatibility issue for multiplayer games where one side has CM1 w/add-on and the other doesn't. And it is NOT a safe bet that everyone who bought into CM would also buy the add-on. (I would, but I'll only speak for myself.) And to say nothing of user-generated scenarios that include these added vehicle models; those CM gamers without an add-on pack would have to be "flagged" that their CM version is incompatible to the scenario.

One way to have it so that two different CM1 versions (with or without add-on) could stay compatible would be for "flags" to be added to the CM code. For example, in a multiplayer game, if one side has add-on and the other doesn't, the CM engine has to check this through the internet or PBEM scenario text, and then "flag" the gamer with add-on that he can't use his added vehicles. And during QB force selection, the add-ons would be removed from the list. BUT....all of this sounds pretty damn messy.

And yes, again as Steve noted, time put into an add-on cuts into the development time for CM2. Some of us MIGHT prefer an add-on now and allow a few more months delay of CM2; some of us might not. But further to BTS's view, CM2 is a projected income source; this speculative add-on isn't yet.

So my perspective of BTS's best options is this:

1) The vehicle add-ons, if to be done, would best have to be included in a new patch-package for CM1 (v1.2+), instead of being shipped as a separate CD. That way, everyone who patches up would get the new vehicles.

2) Time spent to do new vehicles for CM1 should be rewarded with new upfront income in some way.

3) BTS could gauge the majority desires of the how the CM gamer community stands on "add-on" or CM2. Perhaps there MIGHT be enough CM gamers who'd rather see a "boost" to CM1 first before CM2?

4) Perhaps---PERHAPS---some of the alluded "new features" planned for CM2 might find their way first into a CM1 patch package, along with the added vehicles?

So basically, I think it's POLL TIME again to be applied to the CM gamers with these following questions:

A) Do you want a CM1 patch with added vehicles (and possibly some new game features planned for CM2) as a higher priority to CM2?

If enough say "yes" to (A), then are you willing to pay for such a CM1 patch?

C) If so, how much? $10? $15? $20?

If enough CM gamers commit to pay through the online credit-card route to provide what BTS regards as a sufficient new-income bottom line, then the CM1 "add-on" could be viable. Otherwise, onward to CM2.

That's the best way to resolve it, Steve. a poll.

[Croda]

Spook, I think you're options are all valid, but...read between the lines.

There will be no add-on pack.

These guys have busted their collective asses to create what we play at night and talk about during the day. They're nearly at the end of the work that they've put into the TCP/IP patch, and when that is complete, so is their vision of CM:BO also complete (unless they opt for a Lucas-like remake, but that's for the future).

Be practical for a minute. They are not a public service group. An add-on pack of any size and quality that was done properly would take a solid 6 months to create. Even if they can sell it, there is no guarantee that their existing client base will buy it and obviously it's of no use to anyone without CM. So they would need to price it so as to keep they're income consistent, and to buy them enough time to spend the 2 or so years it will take to create CM2. Chances are, PC gamers being as fickle as they are, that it would not be a good enough seller to warrant releasing CM2 (the real money-maker) 6 months later than possible. All products have a life-cycle, and they need to get the new product out as soon as possible before the public (not necessarilly us die-hards) lose interest.

Now add on to that the fact that these guys do this as a passion as well as employment. They love WWII. But, as with any passion, you grow tired of something after a while and need a change of pace. They are "bored" with the WTO and want to jump into what is currently exciting them, the ETO. So it is only natural that they would want to call CM:BO done after 1.1 is complete, and begin work on CM2. After all, it is their passion for WWII and wargames that has made this game as great as it is. To ask them to work on something that isn't what they are currently fascinated by, is asking them to put aside their fervor and work for cash only.

So, your best bet is an early release of CM2 vehicles that saw action in the WTO.

Or at least that's my 2 cents.

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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Elijah Meeks: You rock, Croda<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[gaffertape]

I'd be happy to pay $25 US for some additional units ($35 or so CDN after shipping), but I do understand the problems with compatibility:

People who don't want or can't afford the add-on will feel somewhat cheated - they can't play some newer scenarios, and may be left out of PBEMs with people who insist on using any of the new units.

Bit of a double-edged sword (though being the greddy swine, I do want that glorious Brummbar).

GAFF

[Spook]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Croda:

Be practical for a minute. They are not a public service group. An add-on pack of any size and quality that was done properly would take a solid 6 months to create. Even if they can sell it, there is no guarantee that their existing client base will buy it and obviously it's of no use to anyone without CM.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I was being IMPECCABLY practical, Croda. First of all, the ability of BTS to gauge its customers' wishes is ALWAYS a practicality. That's why BTS put up the TCP/IP vote for inclusion/noninclusion in the first release of CMBO. The CM posters said by large majority, "We want CM ASAP---patch in the TCP/IP later."

And I stated repeatedly that BTS shouldn't spend effort on vehicle add-ons (beyond the halftracks argued in a separate topic) unless there is enough upfront committal of new income specific to this effort.

And your point about "fickle" gamers is a valid one. But I'm personally not going to assume a "PC game industry average" of customer interest to apply to the CM player community just yet.

So I frame the issue again: first find out if CM gamers BY MAJORITY (however you define that majority to be) want a special "add-on" before CM2. THEN find out if enough CM gamers are willing to pay for this. It's a series path with no shortcuts. And if the answer to either is "no" per BTS's definition, then it's simple. Proceed with CM2, without the speculated vehicle add-on for CM1 being a noise factor any further.

[Croda]

While I agree that an add-on pack would be loads of fun, you missed (or at least didn't comment on) my last point, that being that it doesn't appear that BTS wants to do an add-on pack. They've skirted it nicely so that they don't sound like they're disregarding the players' wishes, but I really don't think that they interest is there. If they were on the fence regarding this, then I think your options are the logical way to look at it. However, I think they know what they want to move on to, and it is not an add-on pack. They're just to nice to say it.

Didn't want to make this an argument.

------------------

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Elijah Meeks: You rock, Croda<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Spook]

Very well, then, Croda. Actually, your comments on BTS just now is my impression too. It's kind of a fence-straddle circumstance, but I certainly could believe that BTS would much rather "move on" to CM2.

I just feel that polling the CM gamers would help settle the matter. In fact, right now I'd project that most CM gamers would vote for BTS to get on track with CM2 now that TCP/IP is set in place. (Could be wrong, though.....)

[jshandorf]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Croda:

Didn't want to make this an argument.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh yeah! Well you got an argument now buddy-boy! You happy?! Huh?! Huh?! Why...I should take the belt to yer backside!

Jeff

[Jarmo]

I don't think an addon pack would be such a good idea.

Beside the few missing halftracks, the rest would be rare oddities? Right?

I wouldn't pay to get sturmtigers all over my PBEM's.

But I'd still like to get the US AA HT's...

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Big Time Software:

We are not sure if we will do an addon pack. As you suspect, this will cause a lot of problems with multiplayer AND for downloaded scenarios which require vehicles not present in the standard version. Add to that... every day we spend doing an addon pack for CM1 is one day not spent on CM2. We are already feeling behind schedule due to constant improvements for CM1 (6 patches so far), so the use of our time is rather an important point to think about.

And you are correct... we never promised a vehicle addon pack

As for giving the Poles access to Cromwells... I have asked Charles about this and gladly leave that ball in his court!

Steve<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Steve - thanks for the answer. I guess it is good to have that clarified, and the more I thought about it after posting, the clearer it became that this would create serious compatibility issues. Not worth it, I guess.

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Andreas

<a href="http://www.geocities.com/greg_mudry/sturm.html">Der Kessel</a >

Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission.

[This message has been edited by Germanboy (edited 12-02-2000).]