Proper Uses of AA guns?

[Basebal351]

Hi,

I just had a question on the "proper"

(i.e. realistic) use of AA (anti-aircraft guns). I really have no clue as to their usefulness in areas other than shooting at aircraft.

I do know they are able to kill infantry, and knock out some light vehicles, but are these acceptable uses for the guns like the 20mm or higher, or even some of the German AA vehicles? Were they used in this manner in the war?? Any advice would be appreciated, I just don't want to start using these guns the wrong way.

Thanks,

Jim

[Bastables]

If your willing to search this has come up before.

Short story at this stage of the war the Germans considred the 2cm FlaK's as obsolete in the anti air role due to the need for several hits on a single engine plane to gain a kill, and were instead seen with greater incidence as part of battlion firesupport ie in the front lines. one should note that the single 2cm guns were part of the battalion TO&E where as the 3,7cm and 8,8cm guns were part of the FlaK battalions the single 2cm guns being phased out of the FlaK battalions. Although it's not unusal see them in Infantry divisons FlaK batt soldiering on due to want of anything better.

[Guest Germanboy]

There was a thread on the Tips&Techniques forum which, if you can ignore the sizzling flamewar contained in it, had some of the info.

Or you could just go with Bastables answer. Yes it is perfectly alright and historical to shoot at infantry and lots of other stuff with 20mm AA guns.

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Andreas

<a href="http://www.geocities.com/greg_mudry/sturm.html">Der Kessel</a >

Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission.

[This message has been edited by Germanboy (edited 11-14-2000).]

[Stoffel]

If you are a commander and you would have this weapon than why not use it.

In wars it is important to kill or disable your opponents troops and vehicles.

It does not matter to me on what way that will be and a rapid firing 4 barreled 20mm gunsystem is a very effective way to do that if you have seen Saving Private Ryan you know what effect this weapon have on infantry.

[Bruno Weiss]

Considering I've seen war film after war film showing both German and Allied AA guns being used to fire on infantry and vehicle targets... Yep, I'd say it's most appropriate.

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"Gentlemen, you may be sure that of the three courses

open to the enemy, he will always choose the fourth."

-Field Marshal Count Helmuth von Moltke, (1848-1916)

[Guest wwb_99]

The Germans especially were known for their tactical resourcefulness. If all you have to KO halftracks and provide heavy fire support is a 20 mm AA setup, then most german officers would choose to employ them a la SPR.

It should be noted that the Allies had guns with similar potential as the German 88 in 1940, such as the US 90mm and the Soviet 85mm. But no one thought to equip the AA guns with ground sights, nor train the crews to fire on ground tagets. No one, that is, except for the Germans.

WWB

[Olle Petersson]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stoffel:

If you are a commander and you would have this weapon than why not use it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>The only questions are where and how.

- Order it up to the frontline, chew up enemy infantry while the enemy airforce bomb you and your HQ to pieces.

- Keep it in the rear, wading off aircraft while your frontline troops get mauled.

If it's in your CM battle then it's the first case that apply. If expecting hostile aircraft then use your AAA for rear area protection, otherwise use it more offensively against ground troops.

Cheers

Olle

[Stoffel]

here you have a good point Olle.

On a map you have to find a place where you can have a good field of fire but more important hide away for the enemies tanks and apc's.Many times you can shoot at enemy groundtargets while stay under cover from his vehicles.

I often use the aaa vehicles ,not the static guns.(both the 20 and 37mm)

If your opponent doesn't have aircraft you soon find out .

The 37mm is a real good buildingkiller and a good thing to kill M-8 Greyhounds,(good rate of fire and fast moving) while I use the 20mm for suppression of infantry.

[stimpy]

I treat any 20mm vehicle as a quick machine gun with wheels. I only use it in suppression of infantry and the occasional bashing of soft targets, including soft-skinned vehicles.

As for the 37mm. I have true respect for it. I was playing the Allies once, when all the enemy had left was a single Tiger and miscellaneous infantry. I pulled four 37mm vehicles in behind the Tiger and actually got a kill with one. It hit a weak spot on the turret ring. Ever since then I cannot recreate the kill in the scenario builder... It must of been one of those one-in-a-million shots.

stimpy

[Snake Eyes]

When it was discovered during the Spanish Civil War that the Flak 88 could be used in a direct fire role, it was discounted as being too GAMEY. German SOP required that weapon systems be used only for the purpose they were intended. As a consequence the German Sitzkrieg of France was initiated in the winter of 1939.

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It is easy to be brave from a safe distance. -Aesop

[Cybeq]

WWB_99: You seem to equate resourcefulness in the employ of AA weapons with the Germans only. In WWII the Americans came up with the slick idea of mounting a quad .50 in the back of a halftrack (M-16 GMC). It was intended to be used in the AA role. In fact, it was also used in the anti-sniper role in the Pacific. Not to shoot the sniper, but to cut down the tree he was hiding in! That's resourcefulness!

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"To subdue the enemy without fighting is the supreme excellence." -Sun Tzu, The Art Of War

[Sergei]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by wwb_99:

It should be noted that the Allies had guns with similar potential as the German 88 in 1940, such as the US 90mm and the Soviet 85mm. But no one thought to equip the AA guns with ground sights, nor train the crews to fire on ground tagets. No one, that is, except for the Germans.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think they did, at least Soviets. From what I know after playing Close Combat III and Steel Panthers WAW (I don't suppose the AP grenades were used against German aircraft?).

[Tanaka]

Hi,

sorry for the long post

Stoffel said,

"If you are a commander and you would have this weapon than why not use it.

In wars it is important to kill or disable your opponents troops and vehicles.

It does not matter to me on what way that will be and a rapid firing 4 barreled 20mm gun system is a very effective way to do that if you have seen Saving Private Ryan you know what effect this weapon have on infantry."

Taking out the last part, the one about SPRyan, this pretty much tells the story in the real world...

In CM world, the story is different...

The SdKfz 7/1 and 7/2 flak vehicles are in a special class... The unarmored class,(like jeeps trucks and others), any vehicle or AT weapon shooting at this type of targets will only use HE rounds. The practical result is that your Tanks and AT guns/weapons will use the blast to destroy the "soft" vehicle...

1) Your 37mm are useless against this targets, their blast is only 6.

2) With the 76mm you got a blast of 33 hmmm... you still are in trouble

3) with the 75mm and 17pdr the things are better,39 and 40 of blast, but don't be too confident

4) The zooks are in big big trouble... yes they will use their very small blast to try to knock out the soft target.

In resume, we all can guess what a fast 37mm AP round can do to every day car/jeep ( soft target )... We all can guess what a zook can do either...

To me this is a game limitation, this kind of vehicles are in a border between infantry and armored targets, so at the present CM doesn't handle these well.

The SdKfz is a very serious flaw, because not only is very hard to kill but also it destroys Infantry and Tanks very well ,to me any PBEM opponent using this thing is some one I wont play again...

In my opinion, any one using this vehicles in CM should only be playing against the AI. The AI doesn't give a s%", the human player might...

PS- Just in case, if you do find one of this things in a pbem, the best weapon is the artillery, then it's the HMG at close range(less then 100 m) and finely the infantry at less then 30 or 40 m ...

Thanks,

João

[This message has been edited by Tanaka (edited 11-18-2000).]

[TP_Bomber]

AA Guns can even turn the tide in your favor against heavy armor. I was playing a QB against the Germans and was using a 40mm AA gun against halftracks and infantry. A Panther just happened to get in my 40mm's LOS. The AA gun starting fireing away at him at a range of 800 meters. I must have had him hide quite well in the woods because the now buttoned up Panther couldnt find him. By the end of the turn I had imobilzed him and by the 3rd turn the crew bailed. I guess they were tired of all that banging on their hull.

[Stoffel]

Sorry Tanaka but thiis veheicles are included just like others.

And it goes way out off line to tell someone not to use them.

Most off the time I use one of these weapons because my opponent might have an airplane.

If he has not than I use them for other purposes,and only after I managed to kill his armor.

This week I started another pbem and for the first time I hadn't bought one of these vehicles and to my suprise my opponent bought a plane.

What should I do now ban him from my favourite players because he did so...?

[Von Brizee]

Not playing someone who uses AA guns and halftracks to shoot your men? Sounds like someone just had their halftrack loaded up with two arty spotters burst aflame from a well placed AA round.

It's gamey to whine about something so commonplace. I have also seen a lot of footage on PBS and the History channel of AA units shooting at ground troops. I heard that the Ostwind was considered a failure against aircraft but then they started using them as infantry support and it did well.

Look at CMBO. MANY scenarios that came with the game include German AA halftracks and guns meant to be used against ground targets.

[SF]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stoffel:

Sorry Tanaka but thiis veheicles are included just like others.

And it goes way out off line to tell someone not to use them.

Most off the time I use one of these weapons because my opponent might have an airplane.

If he has not than I use them for other purposes,and only after I managed to kill his armor.

This week I started another pbem and for the first time I hadn't bought one of these vehicles and to my suprise my opponent bought a plane.

What should I do now ban him from my favourite players because he did so...?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Using one of these vehicles in CM in any role other than AA is gamey as hell. ONLY because you are taking advantage of a flaw in the way CM models attacks vs soft skin vehicles

[This message has been edited by SF (edited 11-18-2000).]

[Von Brizee]

And as for the "hard to kill" Flak units, they really aren't too bad. At extreme ranges their guns will do little damage against targets since I have seen them having a hard time hitting them. Even at that range, they have the armor of a truck. A mortar round landing too close kills them. I have taken them out with snipers. I think you must have played a PBEM and had REAL bad luck where an opponent really whipped you when by all means you should have won.

[Tanaka]

"...but these vehicles are included just like others"

So if we discover that a certain vehicle is indestructible, (by the way this would clearly be a bug, there were no indestructible vehicles in the war ), you would use it... it was included like the others

"it goes way out off line to tell someone not to use them"

If you read my post again, you will see that I never told what is stated above... I only said what I do, and then gave an opinion... freedom of speech

"Most off the time I use one of these weapons because my opponent might have an airplane.

If he has not than I use them for other purposes,and only after I managed to kill his armor."

I can leave with one SdKfz, maybe two... with more I can't, sorry

If you are so wearied about planes, why you don't take AA guns instead of the gamey SdKfz 7/1 ?

The answer to my last question is simple... the a regular SdKfz 7/1 (4x20mm flak) costs 46 pts, the regular quad 20mm flak gun cost 52, The static one costs more !!!

Ok, I may not remember it well, but I think BTS said that, in CM the cost of the vehicles is proportional to the survival rate in the battle field (to kill chance)... If this is so, this SdKfz's are way too cheap, buy 6 of them (less then 300 pts)and your adversary will be in a world of ...

João

PS- If you play in short LOS conditions (less then 50m), please ignor my postes in this topic.

[This message has been edited by Tanaka (edited 11-19-2000).]

[Tanaka]

"A mortar round landing too close kills them. I have taken them out with snipers"

As you can see you destroyed it with with artillery (HE) and infantry (small arms fire), although a sniper shot was a bit lucky, I guess,look at the size of the crew Now go and shot it with a zook or an AT round and you will be my hero

"I think you must have played a PBEM and had REAL bad luck where an opponent really whipped you when by all means you should have won. "

I'm a little bit green on this game... I only played 2 times against the AI

I'm a lucky ba$ter# and only one of my pbem opponents used 2 of them once, one in each side of the map... after seeing them in action... and after a couple of home made tests I surrendered and reported the lose to the ladder...

João

[Guest wwb_99]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Cybeq:

WWB_99: You seem to equate resourcefulness in the employ of AA weapons with the Germans only. In WWII the Americans came up with the slick idea of mounting a quad .50 in the back of a halftrack (M-16 GMC). It was intended to be used in the AA role. In fact, it was also used in the anti-sniper role in the Pacific. Not to shoot the sniper, but to cut down the tree he was hiding in! That's resourcefulness!

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, I did not limit the resourcefulness of using AAA against ground targets to the Germans. But in France in 1940 they were the only ones with ground sights for their heavy AAA (88s), as well as crews trained to fire on ground targets. Also, they were the only ones to provide the heavy AAA with AT rounds early in the war.

IIRC, several British AAA units were overran by panzers and had no clue how to take them out. And these units were equipped with a 90mm cannon with similar ballistic characteristics as the 88.

WWB

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Ave, Caesar! Morituri te salatamus.

[Stoffel]

Sorry if my comments hurt your feelings.

I only use one or two of them.

And than why don't I use the static guns,simple a static gun is knocked out very soon by an aircraft because it can't change its position.

And the mobility is handy to get out when the situation becomes dangerous.

And I did not know they were that hard to kill,I lost several of them in earlier pbems even kills by aircraft.