Please respect Major John Howard

[Hamstersss]

We're getting progressively off-topic but keep in mind that racism wasn't even a bad thing back then. Fact is, WWII is what made racism "Bad", along with Nationalism and aggressive war. Before that, it was ok to whack Armenians because they were Armenian, discriminate against blacks and aborigones, beat up Jews, etc. When the "Free World" went to war with the Axis, it was necessary to paint everything they did as bad, so as to justify Dresden and Tokyo. The result of this was the demonization of nationalism, racism, eugenics and a dozen minor philosophical bents.

I'm amazed that American propagandists did such a good job that you are now attacking people for wanting to play Germans (With all their admittedly cool toys) or having German nicks.

[Kitty]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dr. Brian:

Jeff, yeah. I feel the same way. That's why I can't figure out why. WE WON the freaking war. *snip*

In fact, the whole German nation was geared toward racist supremecy, and those that fought for it, beleived it. They had many opportunities to speak out, but never did.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There are a lot of reasons why the Allies won the war. I was thinking of mentioning a few but that would take too long and they're easily found elsewhere.

As for the entire German nation being "geared toward racist supremecy," that's simply not true and many of those who served in the German military did not do so because they believed in the policy you cited. One that comes to mind immediately is Adolf Galland. Many served out Germany's traditional feelings of duty to their country, to seek adventure, etc. etc.

Finally, a lot of people spoke out against Nazi policy. A lot of people ended up dead as a result too.

I'm not trying to worship anyone here, just stating some facts.

[Hamstersss]

Kind of like ol' Bobby Lee during the American Civil War, eh?

[TankDawg]

Who is Bobby Lee?

And I worked hard not to turn this into a "All Germany is Evil" thread. That was not the original point.

Please read the first couple of posts in this thread. We really have gotten off topic.

------------------

Jeff Newell

TankDawg

[Dr. Brian]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lorak:

Dr. Brian and TankDawg,

Jees, talk about needing to lighten up.

So let me see If I follow you. If you play the germans your a nazi and worship hitler, If you take a german user name on a WWII board your a nazi racist too? If your looking for some Good hard music from the 40's your can't use anything german Because that means your a nazi too.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Lorak, the answer to your questions.... no, yes, and yes. But, you are not a racisit Nazi if you didn't understand their national policy of racism. Just ignorant of the facts.

Lighten up? Sheesh, Some people need to get educated more like it, and see WHAT they are glorifiying. No slant towards you, as I don't know your educational background towards this era in history. It's just a bit more "personal" when the nation calls you and your family "subhuman" and gears you for extermination after they extermianted the Jews.

That's what THEY were fighting for.

------------------

Doc

We kicked those German butts in WWII!!!

[Hamstersss]

(Please note that this post in no way is meant to demonstrate that TankDawg is dumb)

(Oh, and don't you love the fact that you could write a REALLLLLLY slanderous post and then, after getting your enemy in a huff, change it to a post about fluffy bunnies.)

Bobby Lee was Robert E. Lee, Confederate overall general during the American Civil War. He fought even though he believed in Union and abhorred slavery because he felt his honor demanded he fight for Virginia, his state.

Dr. Brian,

You cannot condemn an entire people, even singling them out based on era, because of their actions as a state or class. This is irresponsible and is the primary reason why the Nazis managed to do so well politically.

[This message has been edited by Elijah Meeks (edited 08-24-2000).]

[Bastables]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dr. Brian:

I'm not sure that this has ever been covered before, so if it has, I apologize now. Anyway, I noticed some errors in the Ham and Jam scenario. I figure since CM is at v 1.04, it would have been corrected if anyone noticed them before.

Anyway, Major John Howard (has it really been 2 years already since he passed away?) is identified in the unit ID box as "Cpt" Howard. With all due respect, he was a great soldier, and should be identified with his correct rank.

I'm sure if someone noticed "Major" Piper, it's be changed ASAP.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The fact that label of ranks and organisation follow USA Patterns has been noted before, I.e. a Captain for company commander as opposed to a correct Major in a Commonwealth Army. Or the fact that sections are referred to as the American Squads. IIRC BTS position is that it simplify matters for the gamer, no Halbzug/Section/squad brainteasers for the uninitiated. Try a search.

[Kitty]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TankDawg:

Who is Bobby Lee?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think he was a friend of Jeff Davis.

[TankDawg]

Okay,

FYI, I am not as dumb as that post appeared to make me.

I know who Robert E. Lee is. Just not Bobby Lee.

DOH!

------------------

Jeff Newell

TankDawg

[Guest Mortiis]

I play scenarios twice, being allies one game axis in the next, as for 90% of people playing as the ss, I wouldnt know I dont track the playing preferences of everyone on this board and dont care to. I shouldnt have said you were accusing anyone but I would say you sure were implying alot.

[Dr. Brian]

Mortiis, thanks for your reply and thoughts, I welcome them. I will try to respond as best I can.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mortiis:

I think your just looking for something thats not there.

I think the high interest in germany can be explained pretty easily.

1. They were the enemy and since we learned plenty thru mainstream media about the us army I think people would like to look at the other side and see how they handled military situations.

2. Since the germans were the first to make use of british tank combat theories, they had the tactical edge and so many people who enjoy tactical wargames would of course read as much as they can on the application of these theories.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Maybe it's time to look even further at our Allies, the Soviets. The Cold War blocked a lot of information. Now, we can finally see how their soldiers and generals kicked the Germans butts. Recommend reading: The Red Army Tank Commanders, by Armstrong.

A lot of people think the German Generals were great, with sweeping victories across the steppes of Ukraine and Russia. That is simply not the case.

Since Hitler was dead, any human being, such as a Germnan general, would want to protect his "ego." So he blamed Hitler for his failures. The Soviets did a splendid job after recovering from the surprise attack, and Stalin's purges which actually decimated the officer corps.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mortiis:

3. You should read some older threads on this board before making accusations, and those type of accusations are the worst when unfounded.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Call it what you want. I find the name of Peiper reprehensive and deplorible to be "used" as a screen name. When J. Peiper is responsible for the death of a family member, and the national policy of a nation is the subjegation and eventual extermination of your race, I'll make as many accusations as i want, in order to 1) stop it from ever happening again, and 2) honor those that died fighting for my family's life and survival.

Is it just a screen name? How long until it's okay to use "Adolph Hitler" as a screen name. I don't think so. Peiper is a crimminal.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mortiis:

5. My impression of the posters on this board is of intelligent people who simply want to learn all there is to know about ww2.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree. Everyone wants to learn. But those that are glorifying War Criminals and Nazi SS High boot racist thugs is offensive, at least those that know about what Germany was all about.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mortiis:

6. As for the "look at all the ss scenarious, oh my god the humanity", <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No one said "oh the humanity."

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mortiis:

1. wild bill said it best when well heck germany was the main bad guy who do want us fighting romulans,<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How about more historically accurate scenarios? The overwhelming majority of scenarios are top notch Germans and SS. That was simply not the case. Any true student of WWII knows the dredge of the German nation were in uniform fighting for Germany. More historical accurate scenarios depicting more 2nd Line Troops... enough with all these SS.

[Dr. Brian]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bastables:

So don’t pull out that line the Germans were evil because they were racist or because they subjected people, they were not alone in this.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bastables, I did not hear of that incident, but, I would not be surprised.

But, that "line" about Germany is true. You can not defend the national policy of EXTERMINATION and subjegation of the Slavic people and Jews to the individuals in the US towards blacks.

Sorry. Please, don't take this the wrong way, but, you need to get a grasp of reality.

A national policy of extermination in no way compares to a misguided bunch of ignorants. The polciy of the US was equal rights. It came slow, yes. It was not a policy of extermination. Think about that, hard.

------------------

Doc

We kicked those German butts in WWII!!!

[Lorak]

Cripes!

TankDawg,

I apoligize if my post came off as a flame towards you. It was not intended that way.

I was just trying to the gerneralization of your post. It is after all a WWII board. So for some reason I don't find it stange that people are using Names of Men and equipment from WWII as user names.

Sorry if it came out wrong.

Dr. Brian,

I can't offer such an apology, As you yourself Actualy agreed with to of those idiotic points I brought up. That you would judge a person soely by a name they choose on a Forum says a lot about your charactor.

Following your logic on descrimination... I am now not allowed to play the Americans, the English or the Germans.

I do play the Germans half the time. As would be expected. I've made some good friends here that use German names. And according to your logic, I'm surprised to find that these German worshiping nazi's show 100% more tolerance than you do.

Lorak

------------------

Proud commander of the CCT's Chinchilla Commando Teams

[Guest Mortiis]

Ive read several great books on the eastern front and I agree the russians were great fighters, but that doesnt mean the germans didnt fight well either. I myself am emberassed that we had them as alies considering how many war crimes they took part in. I mean hell they kept concentration camps going in areas they took over(buchenwald,ravensbruk) and their disregard for human life was disgusting. And lets not forget who helped nail the poles in 39. Kinda funny that in your post you sound worshipfull of the reds, shall I call you a commie If you respect their fighting ability and choose to play them in a game. No of course not Id be a fool to. This discussion is getting pretty heated and since this is a game forum you'll have to excuse me if I decide not to discuss this anymore for fear of offending anyone any further.

[This message has been edited by Mortiis (edited 08-24-2000).]

[Dr. Brian]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lorak:

I've made some good friends here that use German names. And according to your logic, I'm surprised to find that these German worshiping nazi's show 100% more tolerance than you do.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Lorak, I am glad for you, as making new friends is always a rewarding experience.

But, as far as I'm concerned, I have no desire to be tolerant to those that glorify nazi's. If you can sleep well at night and still associate with nazi's or those that glorify them, more power to you.

I guess it's just hard for people to understand how evil they were, but that's what happenes when they try to kill your family, just because of your race.

------------------

Doc

We kicked those German butts in WWII!!!

[Aussie Smith]

Guys Guys Guys

German Worship/Allied Supremacy - lol come-on!!!

All sides in WW2 committed atrocities - that's all sides - in war the rules are thrown out the window to complete objectives and things happen that in a completely rational world wouldn't.

As to German/American/Brit/Aussie/Kiwi/Canadian heroes - let people play/highlight what they want - it's a bloody game for the love of god - no need to get pent up about it.

Me - I prefer to play the Germans for two main reasons -

1. They lost the war and it's a poor Aussie trait that we love supporting the underdogs; and

2. Their stuff looks **** hot.

No nazi worship - no ideology agreements etc etc.

So please lets not get embroiled in the racism argument etc - its ugly - its not appropriate and it just makes us all look petty.

Craig

[MadDog0606]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dr. Brian:

Lighten up? Sheesh, Some people need to get educated more like it, and see WHAT they are glorifiying. No slant towards you, as I don't know your educational background towards this era in history. It's just a bit more "personal" when the nation calls you and your family "subhuman" and gears you for extermination after they extermianted the Jews.

That's what THEY were fighting for.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This one little item in this thread made me mad. Doc you need some education. Education in manners. It's just a game Doc. There is no need to insult people. I like playing the German side in CM not because of the way they acted in WW2 but because I like the look of their tanks and uniforms. Hell, if the British infantry had good looking tanks and uniforms (their paratroopers do) I'd play them all the time.

Like I said Doc, it's just a game. If I wanted a history leason on how the German leaders engineered the attrocities that they commited in WW2 I'd go read a history book.

By the way Doc, by lumping a group of people together and calling the german people as a whole racist, whats that make you?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TankDawg:

Hey,

Case in point. Check out some of the usernames right now on the "I have some German marching songs, who want them???"

thread. And they all want Nazi war songs. Again, geesh!

If this kind of stuff gets out, CM has a PR disaster in the making. I saw it almost happen on the ASL Mailing list a couple of years ago.

Jeff

TankDawg<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And TankDawg, I can understand where Lorak is comming from. It's all how somebody reads your post. Read your own post. Since you didn't put any kind of indication in that post to show you were making a joke it looks to me like your insinuating that the people in those threads (which I was one of) are Nazis.

[This message has been edited by MadDog0606 (edited 08-24-2000).]

[Dr. Brian]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Aussie Smith:

So please lets not get embroiled in the racism argument etc - its ugly - its not appropriate and it just makes us all look petty.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Craig, I'll try. Thanks for bringing it down a notch.

P.S. I'm not a commie either. They killed many of my counrtymen as well, read that as Katyn Wood. Stalin = Evil, Hitler = Worse.

------------------

Doc

We kicked those German butts in WWII!!!

[Bastables]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dr. Brian:

Bastables, I did not hear of that incident, but, I would not be surprised.

But, that "line" about Germany is true. You can not defend the national policy of EXTERMINATION and subjegation of the Slavic people and Jews to the individuals in the US towards blacks.

Sorry. Please, don't take this the wrong way, but, you need to get a grasp of reality.

A national policy of extermination in no way compares to a misguided bunch of ignorants. The polciy of the US was equal rights. It came slow, yes. It was not a policy of extermination. Think about that, hard.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The extermination of native Americans and their culture was American Government policy mate! The subjection of Hawaii and the Philippians was American Government policy mate! You should take a look at your own jingoistic 'America is the land of the free' vitriol and get some perspective MATE! The creation of the KKK was as a mainstream organisation, the Government did not need to get involved. You have to see that true attempts at equality did not come about, until JFK's rule.

Oh and telling me that I need to get a 'grasp' on reality is a superb method of insuring I will take it the wrong way. Impugning ones intelligence or ‘grasp of reality’ in such as discussion is not on. Your jingonism is no better than that Piepr chap who came on stating that he wanted to re-create the malmady massacre, both two sides of the same coin.

[This message has been edited by Bastables (edited 08-24-2000).]

[TankDawg]

Hi,

Me again. It is only a game. Using usernames that are from war criminals is not funny and has nothing to do with this great game.

I am going to register as Adolf Hitler for my user name and see what happens. This a great game. I am just tired of all the NAZI user names.

------------------

Jeff Newell

TankDawg

[Hitler]

Hi,

It is me, TankDawg. Do you think that some might find this username offensive??

Well, Dr. Brian finds the user name "Peiper" offensive. Do you have a better understanding now?

Jeff

TankDawg

(i will never use this username again)

[Kitty]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dr. Brian:

How about more historically accurate scenarios? The overwhelming majority of scenarios are top notch Germans and SS. That was simply not the case. Any true student of WWII knows the dredge of the German nation were in uniform fighting for Germany. More historical accurate scenarios depicting more 2nd Line Troops... enough with all these SS.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, but if it's historical scenarios you're talking about then I would think one possible reason for many of them including SS units is that they tended to be used in critical spots. Detailed information on the larger or more critical battles is more readily available and therefore you'll see SS units in a lot of Normandy, bocage, and Ardennes scenarios. (shrug)

As far as lowering the German troop quality to "2nd line" status, you'd also have to reduce the ratings of the Americans as well during 1945 because of the fact that the training they were receiving before being sent into combat was far from being even close to adequate.

[Aussie Smith]

TankDawg

Comeon Mate - is there any reason to inflame this issue any more - you've made your point - please let it rest.

All I advocate is that if you find a name offensive - ignore it and read another post - we need to be a little more mature about these issues.

I ask all to get back on the topic - lets not get embroiled in a flame war over somethig as trivial as a name - hell the internet allows all a say - lets just let them but as mature adults leave it to ourselves to be our own censor.

Craig

[Lorak]

TankDawg,

I'm not saying that SOME german names are not offensive to some people.

There is a lot offensive in history. Sherman came through here and burnt some of my families farms and houses to the ground. Do I foam at the mouth when I have to use sherman tanks? of course not.

Being Irish and Cherokee I could go into a long rant on what I find offensive too..

But unlike some, I can seperate a game from reality.

I find racism in all its forms in bad taste. What some people fail to realize is that by combating racism they can fall into being racist themselves.

This was all I was trying to point out.

Finding a name offensive and stating such is one thing. This I can understand and agree with. But when you automatically jump to accusing that person, who you have never met, of being a Nazi.... Well.. thats where I draw the line. Really at this point I see you as no better then the people you despise.

Lorak

------------------

Proud commander of the CCT's Chinchilla Commando Teams

[Hamstersss]

Dr. Brian,

I've posted this in a more intellectual way, you've chosen to ignore it, so I'll be blunt. Your stereotyping of people with Nazi usernames and your ardent defense of your position are for more like the conduct of those you are bashing, unlike the thoughtful and open minded responses of the people trying to tackle such a complex issue. Your simplification is the same thing the Nazis did.

TankDawg,

Your point is taken but realize that is a socialized response and another simple answer to a very complex question.