Dr. Brian Posted August 24, 2000 Share Posted August 24, 2000 I'm not sure that this has ever been covered before, so if it has, I apologize now. Anyway, I noticed some errors in the Ham and Jam scenario. I figure since CM is at v 1.04, it would have been corrected if anyone noticed them before. Anyway, Major John Howard (has it really been 2 years already since he passed away?) is identified in the unit ID box as "Cpt" Howard. With all due respect, he was a great soldier, and should be identified with his correct rank. I'm sure if someone noticed "Major" Piper, it's be changed ASAP. SPOILER X X X X X X X X X X X Additionally, the AT Gun at the bridge was in fact the 5cm PaK38, not the 7.5cm depicted. Although the change to the correct AT Gun will make little difference in scenario balance (it usually gets whacked right away), it should be corrected for historical accuracy. Well, that's my 0.02 pence. ------------------ Doc [This message has been edited by Dr. Brian (edited 08-24-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Bill Wilder Posted August 24, 2000 Share Posted August 24, 2000 Doc, in defense of Dick Reece, he would have gladly changed the rank to Major but you can't do that in the editor. You have to take the rank of Captain. It's one of those things we are pushing for in future versions of CM. I know Mr. Reece and certainly no disrespect was EVER intended in this fine scenario. ------------------ Wild Bill Lead Tester Scenario Design Team Combat Mission-Beyond Overlord billw@matrixgames.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Shaw Posted August 24, 2000 Share Posted August 24, 2000 Dr. Brian, just as a note for future reference, please preface any scenario specific comments with SPOILER so that those who haven't played the scenario can play it blind. That's something that we all kind of agreed on but obviously you couldn't be expected to know. For example: SPOILER x x x x x x x x x x x x I assume that you have the canned version of Ham and Jam. Perhaps you noticed something else awry with it? The bloody thing takes place in the DAYTIME! The designer has since fixed that issue and the new scenario is available on one or more of the sites. Finally remember that scenario designers don't necessarily follow the historical path slavishly, they are under some obligation to make the scenario competitive as well. You might go back to your original post and drop in that SPOILER tag for others. Just click on "edit" and you can make any changes you care to make. Isn't it a great game! Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TankDawg Posted August 24, 2000 Share Posted August 24, 2000 Dr. Brian, Boy, are you right-on! If it was an error in the Tiger's armor thickness or spelling Meyer's name wrong, there would already be 50+ posts on it. I just always roll my eyes with all the German-worship on this list. I mean 4 guys have Jochen as their user name. Geesh. Check out the number of 'SS on the attack' scenarios. I am a proud, current US tanker and so admire that most of our doctrine and tactics come from German armor practices of WW2. That having been said, I always remember to separate the tactics from the worship that is so prevalent on this board and even in professional circles. Anyway, a little off your original post, but needed to vent. God Bless Maj Howard. Jeff TankDawg (Proud of my US Armor fore-fathers that went up against the Mighty German Tanks and their Tank Heroes and beat them time and time again) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Brian Posted August 24, 2000 Author Share Posted August 24, 2000 Joe, Bill, Thanks for clearing that up. Sorry about the spoiler thing... taken care of. Regarding the daytime, yes... that was the other. I composed the message off-line, but didn't get the cut, copy, paste right. You are right. I think it is a good game, and it's too bad about the editor. An understandable limit. I look forward though to some sort of campaign game that is long term, perhaps over a few months of combat. ------------------ Doc We kicked those German butts in WWII!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Bill Wilder Posted August 25, 2000 Share Posted August 25, 2000 So you must not have played "Tough Tanker" yet, Jeff, where praise was rightfully lavished on the famous WW2 tanker, Lafayette G. Pool, a Tank Sergeant who had dozens of tank kills in his career. It is one of my scenarios and I since have had personal contact with Mr. Pool's family as a result of it. It was an honor for me to chat with his cousin, Chet Pool, who is also retired from the US Army. He lost a leg but continued to serve till he passed away a few years ago. One of the Tank Testing facilities is named after him at Fort Knox, "Pool Hall." You oughta get the scenario. Yes, we give credit and love the tankers of the US Army. And we give them their respect in the scenarios we do. You can find this one, 2 versions at CMHQ under Scenarios and Operations. http://combathq@thegamers.net ------------------ Wild Bill Lead Tester Scenario Design Team Combat Mission-Beyond Overlord billw@matrixgames.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Brian Posted August 25, 2000 Author Share Posted August 25, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TankDawg: Dr. Brian, I just always roll my eyes with all the German-worship on this list. I mean 4 guys have Jochen as their user name. Geesh. Check out the number of 'SS on the attack' scenarios. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Jeff, yeah. I feel the same way. That's why I can't figure out why. WE WON the freaking war. Personally, I find it deplorable when someone worships a WAR CRIMMINAL like Piper (one of my uncles was captured in December 1944, and you guessed it, he's responsible for his death). In fact, the whole German nation was geared toward racist supremecy, and those that fought for it, beleived it. They had many opportunities to speak out, but never did. It's sad. I'll take a Soviet T-34 over a MK-IV anyday. I'll take a Soviet JS over any German heavy tank. I'll take the US G.I. over any of those SS scum who pushed a policy of racial supremecy and subjegation.... ------------------ Doc We kicked those German butts in WWII!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Bill Wilder Posted August 25, 2000 Share Posted August 25, 2000 As an addendum, there is a strong effort underway to get the Congressional Medal of Honor for Sgt. Pool's widow in recognition of his courageous service in Europe. Even 56 years after the fact is still not too late for Mrs. Pool. I hope it happens. ------------------ Wild Bill Lead Tester Scenario Design Team Combat Mission-Beyond Overlord billw@matrixgames.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Speedy Posted August 25, 2000 Share Posted August 25, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dr. Brian: ......That's why I can't figure out why. WE WON the freaking war........ <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> No you didn't the Soviets did Cheers mate ------------------ Work is the curse of the drinking class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Bill Wilder Posted August 25, 2000 Share Posted August 25, 2000 No problem Doc. You did not know. I hope this and some other things can be changed so that we can create even more historical battles of all the combatants of WW2. ------------------ Wild Bill Lead Tester Scenario Design Team Combat Mission-Beyond Overlord billw@matrixgames.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Bill Wilder Posted August 25, 2000 Share Posted August 25, 2000 Well go get that Maastricht scenario and kick some German butt! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TankDawg Posted August 25, 2000 Share Posted August 25, 2000 Hi Wild Bill, Have spent more hours than I can recall in Pool Hall. He was a GREAT tanker. Sorry, I was not going after your scenarios at all. You have a lot of GREAT tank vs. tank scenarios (as I have told you before, ELSDORF is the BEST!) However, just look at the scenarios at "The Depot." Then look at how many have SS in them. Then see how many of them they are "Fanatic." It is pretty amazing. I don't know how the Allies won. nuff said. Just wanted to clarify. Jeff TankDawg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TankDawg Posted August 25, 2000 Share Posted August 25, 2000 Hey, Case in point. Check out some of the usernames right now on the "I have some German marching songs, who want them???" thread. And they all want Nazi war songs. Again, geesh! If this kind of stuff gets out, CM has a PR disaster in the making. I saw it almost happen on the ASL Mailing list a couple of years ago. Jeff TankDawg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Bill Wilder Posted August 25, 2000 Share Posted August 25, 2000 I would tend to agree with you. That is why, precisely why, I did this particular scenario. I felt that US (and other Allies) had their own tank heroes, not just the Germans. And I intend to do more. I think better representation of other countries and their tankers is needed. I should point out, however, that the Germans tend to be sometimes predominant because they are the only enemy. No matter who fights, he fights the Germans. That is one reason they always appear in scenarios. But you know that, of course! I hope I get to see "Pool Hall" one day myself. I sent you a little paper I did on the 70th Tank Battalion and am in the process of doing a campaign for SPWAW on that theme, just so you know. Let me know what you think of it, Tank Dawg! ------------------ Wild Bill Lead Tester Scenario Design Team Combat Mission-Beyond Overlord billw@matrixgames.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goanna Posted August 25, 2000 Share Posted August 25, 2000 Dr. Brian/TankDawg - While I understand your initial concern over what would appear to be worshiping of German war criminals, I can assure you that the attitude is not predominant here and BTS is far from having a PR problem. I almost always play the German forces because, having only the slightest amount of knowledge for combined arms actions (I was an MP in the army), I figured that it would be much easier for me to get my brain around a smaller force of (typically) better gear than a large force of less survivable kit. However, I am reasonably well read on the actual geopolitical history of WWII and would in no way be considered sypathetic to the German cause at the time. I would encourage you to do a search for terms such as "SS". "holocaust" and other terms you assume would be incindiary discussion topics. If you read some of these threads you will find some very balanced and reasonable discussions of the issues surrounding the actual cobat that CM models. You will also find a number of us who are ready willing and able to pound the Jochen Piper wannabes that show up over the head with reams of actual facts to belittle any revisionism that they would otherwise like to get up to. Now, that being said, I would like to offer either of you patriotic yanks a can of whoopass at the hands of my Fallschirmjagers if you would like a game. ------------------ desert rat wannabe [This message has been edited by Goanna (edited 08-24-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TankDawg Posted August 25, 2000 Share Posted August 25, 2000 Bill, The 70th was a good unit. Look forward to it. Goanna, Points well taken. I just want us all to keep our eyes on this. That's all. Jeff TankDawg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillWoodAgain Posted August 25, 2000 Share Posted August 25, 2000 The .50 cal is too strong. The 88 Long is not strong enough. The German NuclearWerferthingy that shoots out of the turret, modeled, over modeled. No US WP. Many a keystroke spent on this, but I am of the opinion that it should be in the game. Read "Combat Lessons #4" informing the GI in the field how to use WP as an offensive weapon at http://carlisle-www.army.mil/usamhi/DL/chron.htm The absence of Duds. The Dud rate of German munitions was extremely high in comparison to the Alllied, especially the American Dud rate. Seems to me I have read the German dud rates went into the double digits at times. Don't get me wrong, CM is a great wargame. It is as significant to compter wargaming as Squad Leader was/is to cardboard and paper wargames. I thoroughly enjoy playing it. Squad Leader was German friendly too, and was a long time coming from doing the American's justice when it developed GI Anvil of Victory, 1977-1983 if memory serves. Neither slight the Allied cause, its just that the Germans are more thoroughly represented. But you know, ever since I got into this wargaming hobby way back in '76, the hobby is partially and often critically driven by the interest in Nazi Germany and the Wermacht. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TankDawg Posted August 25, 2000 Share Posted August 25, 2000 Billwoodagain, AMEN! Especially about SL/ASL. I love and play ASL all the time, but it too is SO pro-German. The last 5 years, a lot of SSR's and helped the poor Americans but most scenarios are still tough on the US. Yes, I always crack up when someone (right now even) is whining about the 88mm. Too funny. ------------------ Jeff Newell TankDawg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Bill Wilder Posted August 25, 2000 Share Posted August 25, 2000 Whoa now, I think that might be a little much! Germany faced many foes. Choose the Poles, you fight Germans, British, more Germans, US, same-same, French, what else is new. USSR - don't even go there! So eventually Germany is going to show up anywhere you go. Unless you go to the Pacific...or North Africa, which we can't do yet in CM. As for the wargaming industry as a whole, I don't know if I would go that far. I've been into wargaming since 1965 and felt that overall it sort of evens out. There is sometimes a tendency to glorify the Germans a bit too much, Tank Aces, Fighter Aces. I really don't know why. Every country had their own aces, heroes, and frontrunners. I would agree that in this particular case the emphasis needs to be more balanced. Let me ask you though, when you can choose either side, which side do you play? Just curious... ------------------ Wild Bill Lead Tester Scenario Design Team Combat Mission-Beyond Overlord billw@matrixgames.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TankDawg Posted August 25, 2000 Share Posted August 25, 2000 Hi Wild Bill, I always, always play the US, British or Canadian in CM and ASL. The only exception are tournaments(roll of the dice) or once when Blackhorse (MAJ Carnes) made me play the Germans in a QB (I got killed!). I just find it so much more challenging. I lose a lot more, but have fun. ------------------ Jeff Newell TankDawg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lorak Posted August 25, 2000 Share Posted August 25, 2000 Dr. Brian and TankDawg, Jees, talk about needing to lighten up. So let me see If I follow you. If you play the germans your a nazi and worship hitler, If you take a german user name on a WWII board your a nazi racist too? If your looking for some Good hard music from the 40's your can't use anything german Because that means your a nazi too. So As you guys are concerned A WWII game should only consist of Players being able to play the Allies, no mention of Germany at all, and no music allowed except for jazz. I guess BTS could have followed "The perfect General" and just made it the red vs. the blue army... but then I guess Half of us would be accused of worshiping stalin and comunisium. It is just a game! And maybe I'm the only one... But I find half of the units in every game I've played are the allies. Lorak ------------------ Proud commander of the CCT's Chinchilla Commando Teams Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillWoodAgain Posted August 25, 2000 Share Posted August 25, 2000 When I play Single Player, I prefer the Allies. I do not exclude playing the Axis though, and I admit I enjoy playing the German forces. They do have more "neat" stuff to play with (which reinforces my point). In PBEM, to be honest, I just really got started except for with one guy, ever since the Beta, (heck, ever since I met him online discussing Operation Crusader by Atomic), he absolutely refuses to play the Axis. I have a new opponent, and he has me playing the Brits, which is just grand. Ever play AH's Russian Campaign? This was an award winning wargame in its time, and I doubt between two competent players that the Russian player could get anywhere near the historical results. Hey, TankDawg, I'd like a PBEM, which of course mean one of us has to be "the bad guys" (to quote my son). If you want me to play the Axis, I promise I won't want to be Elite SS with afull platoon of King Tigers with 1/20th of the total production run of Pumas as my recon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mortiis Posted August 25, 2000 Share Posted August 25, 2000 I think your just looking for something thats not there. I think the high interest in germany can be explained pretty easily. 1. They were the enemy and since we learned plenty thru mainstream media about the us army I think people would like to look at the other side and see how they handled military situations. 2. Since the germans were the first to make use of british tank combat theories, they had the tactical edge and so many people who enjoy tactical wargames would of course read as much as they can on the application of these theories. 3. You should read some older threads on this board before making accusations, and those type of accusations are the worst when unfounded. 4. And Im sure if any american vehicles armour thickness was innaccurate you would see demands for it to be fixed as well. 5. My impression of the posters on this board is of intelligent people who simply want to learn all there is to know about ww2. 6. As for the "look at all the ss scenarious, oh my god the humanity", two things, 1. wild bill said it best when well heck germany was the main bad guy who do want us fighting romulans, 2. Who were the ultimate enemies that people would take the most pleasure of wiping out in combat, well the ss. [This message has been edited by Mortiis (edited 08-24-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bastables Posted August 25, 2000 Share Posted August 25, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dr. Brian: In fact, the whole German nation was geared toward racist supremecy, and those that fought for it, beleived it. They had many opportunities to speak out, but never did. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> You know there was a very famous incident that took place during World War II in the capitol of New Zealand, Wellington which indicate the the love that Americans hold for the 'black man'. It began in a bar, which had been appropriated by the USA service men serving in New Zealand. Now after the Victory in Nth Africa, Kiwi soldiers were given leave and allowed to return to New Zealand for a little R&R, which meant a wholesale return of units. This resulted in an interesting tension which exploded when American service men would not allow Maoris to drink in a ‘white bar’, both Maori and Pakeha (white New Zealanders) took offence to being kicked out of there own Pub and in the ensuing riots 3 white American service men were killed. Remember the KKK was not a fringe organisation back then. None of the ‘white nations’ had a monopoly on racism. So don’t pull out that line the Germans were evil because they were racist or because they subjected people, they were not alone in this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TankDawg Posted August 25, 2000 Share Posted August 25, 2000 Wow! Where do I start? I did not accuse the board, CM, anyone of 'worshiping Hitler and Nazis' or anything of the sort. In fact, what accusations did I make? None. Just observations. Nor do I have any problems that Germany is in wargames ( I don't even know how to address this one). In fact maybe I should just stop right here. Nah! I did not say 98% of the things you are accusing me of. And Mortiis brings up 2 points that I will comment on. You say that the SS scenarios are great because it allows us all to beat up on them. Yet 98% of the AARs and game comments you see on the list are always from people playing the SS. I mean how many people have brought up questions about the Villers-Bocage operation from the British side?? (answer: none) And we wouldn't bring up a discrepancy in Sherman Armor thickness because we do NOT worship the vehicles like so many do the German vehicles. Most of us have no idea what the proper thickness is. But all the germanonphiles on this list sure know what the side armor of the 1944 Panther Ausf. D is. Look, again, we just need to keep our eyes open to some of this. ------------------ Jeff Newell TankDawg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts