Ben Galanti Posted July 11, 2000 Share Posted July 11, 2000 Both of these questions have kind of come up in the Jeep vs. Hetzer thread, but I wanted to put them in their own thread becuase it's something that I've been wondering about... First off, Was the .50 cal really as effective against light armor (armored cars, HTs, Marder's, etc..) as it seems to be in the game? The .50 cal that's mounted on most US halftracks seems to make really quick work of the German vehicles. I know that it can put a hole through a good size piece of metal, but I was just wanting to hear if anyone had any experience with it. The German HTs seem to be of little use with the number of .50 cals usually found on the allied side. Secondly, I know this was toned down from the beta demo, but I still seem to be getting a lot of armor (and light armor) kills from mortars. Now, I don't really have a problem with a mortar being able to kill a tank, it just seems to happen with a lot of frequency. Now, I haven't specifically checked this with a test scenario, but it I think part of the problem is that when mortar (or other HE) rounds start raining down, the Tac AI doesn't seem to try and move the vehicles away at all. I can often take out a HT in under a turn with mortar fire, so it seems to be something that the Tac AI needs to be able to be aware of. I assume if the target vehicle moves (or is moving), there would be a much smaller chance of a hit, becuase the mortar couldn't zero in... I'd like to hear others experiences with this though. Thanks for any insights! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfe Posted July 11, 2000 Share Posted July 11, 2000 Yeah, I get the same thing with mortars. See: http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/Forum1/HTML/006431.html And I just lost an M8 Howitzer vehicle last night to a German 81mm mortar top hit. Though I'm not sure I really want BTS to tweak the accuracy. In QB's against the AI, I'm often fighting hordes of HTs! If the TacAI can see the mortar team, it'll take it under fire and, from my experience, also move away from it. Though they do seem to just sit there if the mortars are unseen. - Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Formerly Babra Posted July 11, 2000 Share Posted July 11, 2000 I know of at least one recorded example of a Japanese destroyer being sunk by .50 cal fire. Hope that answers your question regarding their effectiveness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guachi Posted July 12, 2000 Share Posted July 12, 2000 Here is a link to an old thread with yet another link to a penetration chart of the .50cal and MG42 vs a halftrack. http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/Forum1/HTML/000232.html Jason being an anal retentive FAQ geek has its advantages (total search time - 5 seconds) edited to insert image... [This message has been edited by guachi (edited 07-12-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted July 12, 2000 Share Posted July 12, 2000 Ben, The .50 cal MG was and is a potent weapon against light armor, but is best employed against sides, top and rear of the target. I have killed quite a few halftracks with it. German armored cars are an entirely different proposition, though. Their armor is over twice as thick and is hard to pierce. Mortars are indeed the bane of halftracks (big opening) and open turreted vehicles. 60mm mortars are great for creaming halftracks and their occupants with direct hits. Near misses tend to shred the tires and immobilize the vehicle.Part of their effectiveness comes from their high rate of fire. Engine decks are also somewhat vulnerable. Jump to 81mm and per shell lethality jumps dramatically. Damage radius increases from both more explosive and heavier fragments. I pounded the daylights out of an American assault last night in a Quick Battle with FO directed mortar salvo fire, killing two halftracks outright, jammming the road,buttoning the surviving armor, including a Sherman 105mm and chewed up squads so badly that the whole advance ceased for many turns. I have also killed a buttoned StuG III with an 81mm mortar. From what I could tell, it landed on the engine deck, blew up the engine, which then set the ammo ablaze. Kaboom! Hope this helps. John Kettler P.S. Formerly Babra, WW II destroyers weren't armored. Metal was quite thin, hence "tin can" nickname. Also, you're probably talking about one being strafed by a B-25 with at least eight .50 cals firing simultaneously in a harmonized (converged) pattern. Instant metallic Swiss cheese; even worse if ammo hit. [This message has been edited by John Kettler (edited 07-12-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Galanti Posted July 12, 2000 Author Share Posted July 12, 2000 Thanks for reminding me of that graphic, guachi. I've, in fact, pointed it out to others before, but had forgotten about it Charles talked about some of the .50 cal stats in the hetzer/jeep thread. It's jsut when you see it in the game, it hits home a bit more.. Johm, thanks for the info on the mortars. I can definitely buy the fact that armor can be taken out from a mortar round. It seems like it happens a fair bit though. My theory was that it was due to the fact that vehicles don't seem to think of mortar rounds as a threat, and as such don't seem to plot paths out of a barrage. Just wondering what others thought, or if it felt about right to them. Ben Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarmo Posted July 12, 2000 Share Posted July 12, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by guachi: Here is a link to an old thread with yet another link to a penetration chart of the .50cal and MG42 vs a halftrack<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I have no idea how to read that chart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Galanti Posted July 12, 2000 Author Share Posted July 12, 2000 The percentages on the side are the percent chance for penetration. So, the .50 cal has 100% chance of penetrating the sides and rear of a Sd Kfz 251 from 1000 m (that's assuming the .50 cal is on the same level has the Sd Kfz.) In fact, from the looks of the chart, there's probably a good chance of penetrating even up to 1.25 km... The MG42 has a 100% chance of penetration from of front, rear or sides, if the range is less then 250 m. Outside 250 m, it looks like you're grunts inside don't have much to fear. Ben Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TankDawg Posted July 12, 2000 Share Posted July 12, 2000 Hi, Yes the .50 cal is that effective. I am a M1A1 Tank Commander and we are trained to destroy enemy light armor not with our 120mm, but with our .50 cal. Hope that helps. Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Simon Posted July 13, 2000 Share Posted July 13, 2000 Name another weapon system to survive unchanged (relatively speaking) for nearly a century of warfare. It's power isn't the least of the Axis' problems, when you consider that it was mounted on just about everything we had. To hear that it is considered to this day to be an effective light AFV killer mounted on arguably the best modern MBT speaks volumes ------------------ Simon http://members.tripod.com/~sjuncal/ammodump/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregory Deych Posted July 13, 2000 Share Posted July 13, 2000 If there is one area where CM manual is lacking for me, it would be in neglecting some tactical unit tips. For example, despite being no neophyte of WWII lore, I had no idea that 50 caliber was so lethal to lightly armored vehicles (I still think it's generating too many "abandoned" results. What kinds of HT components were exposed enough to be wrecked by non-penetrating .50 caliber hits and render the vehicle unusable?"). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Posted July 13, 2000 Share Posted July 13, 2000 Yeah, the Browning .50 caliber is an awesome weapon. Very deadly to a *wide* variety of targets. One of the few things you would be safe in would be a heavily armored tank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted July 13, 2000 Share Posted July 13, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gregory Deych: What kinds of HT components were exposed enough to be wrecked by non-penetrating .50 caliber hits and render the vehicle unusable?".<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Wheels come to mind, but apart from that, how do you know it is not penetrating? According to the chart, it might well do that. And if I was in the crew, I would bail then, b/c the next burst might end up being stopped by you if you stay. ------------------ Andreas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Peltz Posted July 13, 2000 Share Posted July 13, 2000 http://www.theshop.net/nitetrkr/browning_50cal.htm http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/Quarters/9283/page30.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Galanti Posted July 13, 2000 Author Share Posted July 13, 2000 Simon wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> It's power isn't the least of the Axis' problems, when you consider that it was mounted on just about everything we had.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I think thats what has just suprised me a bit. I didn't realize how prevelant it was. This decidedly shortens the life of German HTs and light armor during battles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Michael emrys Posted July 13, 2000 Share Posted July 13, 2000 I think someone at S&T (probably Jim Dunnigan) some years ago used the word "lavish" to describe their ubiquity in the U.S. Army. I think our allies were not displeased to receive them with their Lend-Lease tanks and other equipment either. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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