Dan Weaver Posted June 27, 2000 Share Posted June 27, 2000 Is it realistic to have every Allied tracked vehicle fitted with a rhino after July 1944? Also, would it be possible to make tanks leave a hole in the bocage after they pass through it? Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted June 27, 2000 Share Posted June 27, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dan Weaver: Is it realistic to have every Allied tracked vehicle fitted with a rhino after July 1944? Dan<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I believe it is, IIRC from Michael Doubler's 'Closing with the enemy'. ------------------ Andreas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allan Posted June 28, 2000 Share Posted June 28, 2000 I have been trying to design a bocage scenario for CM and have found some interesting stuff. The bocage terrain in CM slows tanks and infantry way down as they traverse it. However, it does not leave a hole when the tank passes. Also, when I hide infantry in it, they seem to be spotted way too easily. The tank not leaving a hole, I could can live with. But the spotting hiden infantry needs to be adjusted IMHO. From reading Doubler's book, it would seem very difficult to spot infantry in the hedgerows. Maybe, the next patch could address this? Allan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lorak Posted June 28, 2000 Share Posted June 28, 2000 Allan, Are you hiding your guys in the hedgerows? or behind them? If your unit says it it is hedgerow/bocage, then your actualy in it. Easy to be spotted from both sides. However if your hiding behind it, it should be hard to sopt your units. Works the same as walls. If you unit says it is in/on a wall tile. They are actualy on the wall. not behind it. Lorak ------------------ http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/combatmissionclub Lorak's FTX for CM <--Proud member of the Combat Mission Webring Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Weaver Posted June 28, 2000 Author Share Posted June 28, 2000 The AI really likes to send infantry through bocage in close assaults. Once I had eight AT gun crewmen hold off an entire SS panzergrenadier platoon because the computer insisted on sending the grenadiers through the bocage about ten yards from the house the crews were holed up in. Awfully dumb for ubermensch. Dan [This message has been edited by Dan Weaver (edited 06-27-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allan Posted June 28, 2000 Share Posted June 28, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lorak: Allan, Are you hiding your guys in the hedgerows? or behind them? If your unit says it it is hedgerow/bocage, then your actualy in it. Easy to be spotted from both sides. However if your hiding behind it, it should be hard to sopt your units. Works the same as walls. If you unit says it is in/on a wall tile. They are actualy on the wall. not behind it. Lorak <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Lorak, I am hiding them IN the bocage. It is my understanding that the hedgerow/bocage is a thick tangle of trees, roots and underbrush that would conceal a soldier very well. I am trying to set up a scenario based on some actual hedgerow accounts from Doubler's book. It seems to me you do not want to hide on one side of the bocage since it blocks LOS to the other side and you are totally exposed on the near side, thus defeating the purpose of a unit being able to cover adjacent hedgerows from a concealed position. This is why the allies usually attacked two or three adjacent hedgerows at the same time in order to minimize this overlapping effect. Allan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckeye Posted June 28, 2000 Share Posted June 28, 2000 Actually, IIRC, Charles said that bocage doesn't totally block LOS if you are reasonably close to it. I don't recall how far the LOS goes, but you should be able to see through it if you are just behind it. I haven't played a scenario with bocage yet, so haven't tried this personally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarmo Posted June 28, 2000 Share Posted June 28, 2000 So can you drive a Jeep through? Halftrack? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spook Posted June 28, 2000 Share Posted June 28, 2000 Not likely for wheeled vehicles. I think that only Allied tanks can pass. I would like to see the "Rhino" effect of taking out portions of bocage when a Rhino-type tank (with the bocage-cutting device) drives through. But this means that the bocage tile would have to be programmed as something that can be changed in the course of a scenario, similar to houses and woods that can catch fire, or houses going to rubble. Actually, I think that tanks of BOTH sides could pass through bocage hedges. It ultimately depended on the height of the hedge. For lower hedges (6-10'?), the tank could drive over it, but for a time, its front end would be pushed up into the air, and I also think it quite possible for a WW2 tank to "bog" while trying this. So in effect, to allow the Rhino effect with bocage, and other things like adjustable hedge height (linked with what vehicles could be allowed to pass through), would be quite a bit of added programming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allan Posted June 28, 2000 Share Posted June 28, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Buckeye: Actually, IIRC, Charles said that bocage doesn't totally block LOS if you are reasonably close to it. I don't recall how far the LOS goes, but you should be able to see through it if you are just behind it. I haven't played a scenario with bocage yet, so haven't tried this personally.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Buckeye, I agree with you. But my point is I am hiding infantry IN the bocage according to German tactics outlined in Doubler's book. However, when I do that they get spotted while hiding in the bocage from over 100m in some cases. The allies come busting through the hedgerow and immediatly spot my hidden units from 100m and nail them. I think rather than hide behind the hedgerow, troops should be able to hide IN the hedge and have it be at least similar to hiding in woods for spotting purposes. Allan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarmo Posted June 28, 2000 Share Posted June 28, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Allan: I think rather than hide behind the hedgerow, troops should be able to hide IN the hedge and have it be at least similar to hiding in woods for spotting purposes. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I second this. From pictures I've seen, the undergrowth would be very thick. IMO hiding in bushes should be even more effective than hiding in woods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark IV Posted June 28, 2000 Share Posted June 28, 2000 I wonder if Michael Doubler is aware of Combat Mission? As often as he is cited here, someone should clue him in. All I know is that he was affiliated with University of Kansas, and that the book was published in 1995. How about a live chat on CMHQ with Doubler? Would that be awesome, or what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Formerly Babra Posted June 28, 2000 Share Posted June 28, 2000 This might sound like a no-brainer, but have you actually ordered your troops to "hide"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allan Posted June 28, 2000 Share Posted June 28, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jarmo: I second this. From pictures I've seen, the undergrowth would be very thick. IMO hiding in bushes should be even more effective than hiding in woods.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Exactly! Maybe we can get BTS' thoughts on this. How about it Steve, Charles? Allan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckeye Posted June 28, 2000 Share Posted June 28, 2000 Yup, I see your point. I haven't tried it yet, but there should be a way to set up defensive positions in the bocage, a la the German's tactics. And they certainly were "in" rather than "behind" the bocage, and had good LOS to the next hedgerow. It also would be appealing visually if having a tank go through the bocage changed the appearance of the tile and allowed troops to follow through unimpeded. Not sure how easy that would be to program though. And most German tanks, IIRC, were not equipped to penetrate most larger hedgerows. Doubler's book is great. I wonder if he knows how admired he is by the CM community. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarmo Posted June 29, 2000 Share Posted June 29, 2000 Of course, hiding *in* the bocage, you wouldn't get much in the way of protection. Bushes don't stop bullets too well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soliloquy Posted June 29, 2000 Share Posted June 29, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jarmo: Of course, hiding *in* the bocage, you wouldn't get much in the way of protection. Bushes don't stop bullets too well.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> But you can't see through 'em either. The bushes were used as visual cover, not physical cover. And the beef here appears to be that the bocage (when in the bocage) doesn't reduce exposure enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hatch Posted June 30, 2000 Share Posted June 30, 2000 My understanding of the bocage fighting (off the top of my head). Medieval Norman farmers digging rocks and boulders out of their fields and dumping them at the edges constructed the bocage over time. This served to act as both a border and windbreak. Over time the hedgerows got larger and foliage began to grow on top of them. By the time of the Allied invasion the soil and stone “wall” bit was massive and somewhere between four to eight feet high (if my memory serves me right) with all sorts of trees and underbrush growing on top of them. Overall height was about fifteen to thirty feet. The Germans defenders had time to dig tunnels and dugouts into the earthen part of the hedgerows and this is were the Allies had problems. The tunnels facing the advancing Americans were small and camouflaged. The defenders had excellent cover, good concealment and a perfect withdrawal route. It also gave them positions of fire and observation on both sides of the hedgerow. While soldiers could take up position on top of the hedgerow, the thick growth made moving around difficult and detection easier due to moving bushes and treetops. And if they had to bug out, they could still be hit by un-aimed suppressive area fire (no covered withdrawal route). And being good soldiers, they defended in depth with all around defense as best they could. Any fairly heavy, fully tracked AFV could drive over the top of the hedgerow (no Bren Gun Carriers or half tracks) but it’s was slow going and they would have to present their undersides to enemy fire (which would have time to adjust their weapons). The Rhino tusks (or dozer blades) allowed tanks to drive straight into the soil and push a hole through the hedgerow. Following troops could then use this un-planned for gap in the German’s line. Driving over the hedgerow would just sort of squish the green bits on top and leave the vehicle isolated from its supporting Infantry. While there were dozer blades fitted to Shermans in theater, there were never enough to go around. When the rhino tusks were being introduced, the “higher ups” decided to give a little bit to everyone. The initial scale of issue was one per tank platoon but as the campaign progressed more became available. I do not believe every vehicle that could have them fitted, did (maybe one in two). By the time they became readily available the American Army was out of the Bocage and they weren’t needed anymore. It would be nice if BTS could allow a hedgerow to be breached in this manner (maybe engineer would be able to blow gaps too?) and hopefully we might see this in a future patch or add-on pack. Maybe if we are real good and say “Please”. From comments posted here I guess I’m going to have to check out Michael Doubler's 'Closing with the enemy'. Thanks. Hope this helps. ------------------ Double tap & getsome! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest *Captain Foobar* Posted June 30, 2000 Share Posted June 30, 2000 hey soliliquoy, I think that you are taking the visual representation too literally. It has been said that individual soldier location is randomized, and not true to the 3 man squad base. From what you describe, I think you actually have a couple men in the bocage, some on one side, and some on the other side of it. Personally, I try to stay 5-10 m from the stuff.. Hope that helps... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seanachai Posted June 30, 2000 Share Posted June 30, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Germanboy: I believe it is, IIRC from Michael Doubler's 'Closing with the enemy'. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I have been/am reading Doubler's book (after many posts about it here). I haven't played anything in bocage, yet, but one of the points Doubler seemed to make was that the Rhino's only helped so far, and that AFVs found them most useful against the lighter weight hedgerows, but for the nastier types they had to use engineers and explosives combined with the 'rhino' blades to get through. Is this modeled? Wouldn't Ami afvs moving through the hedgerows (albeit slowly) with just 'rhinos' allow Ami advances that were too fast, compared to the historical situation? Or is the slowness of movement meant to model the more complex process of hedgerow busting that Doubler discusses in the book? ------------------ After witnessing exceptional bravery from his Celtic mercenaries, Alexander the Great called them to him and asked if there was anything they feared. They told him nothing, except that the sky might fall on their heads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lawyer Posted June 30, 2000 Share Posted June 30, 2000 Steven Ambrose describes the Germans as basically hiding behind the hedgerows, not dug into them, in "Citizen Soldiers". ------------------ Res ipsa loquitur Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest SS Peiper Posted June 30, 2000 Share Posted June 30, 2000 oh thats great!! now I have to go buy another book 'Doubler's Closing with the enemy'. Thanks guys SS Peiper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Fox Posted June 30, 2000 Share Posted June 30, 2000 Like a moth to a light, so I am drawn inexorably to this thread. Thusfar I have resisted it's lure hoping it might fade into obscurity. But alas it's siren song can be resisted no longer. First you have to understand the bocage in CM is an abstraction of the real thing. In real life hiding in bocage means dug in behind the earthen bank which comprises the base of the hedgerow not sitting up perched on top of the bank in amongst the vegetation where in fact you would be quite exposed (to fire if not to observation). Therefore when in CM your guys are "in the bocage" they are essentially crossing it and so fairly exposed. If you want to use the bocage defensively in CM you need to be behind it not in it (though as close as possible to it) this simulates the real life circumstance of being dug "in the bocage". This distinction in CM is made so that the game can simulate both the exposure of crossing it and it's defensive value. Secondly, the bocage hedgerow terrain tile in CM represents the worst form of real life hedgerow which is impenetrable to tanks. In order to simulate bocage hedgerows of lesser density you need to use other terrain types ie hedge etc For some further enlightening discussions of this subject http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/Forum1/HTML/002878.html This ones the best http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/Forum1/HTML/001786.html also a good example of two guys argueing 'til they're blue in the face hehe ------------------ "Pink Floyd, a load of old twaddle"-John Lydon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guachi Posted June 30, 2000 Share Posted June 30, 2000 Oh, man, you guys gotta check out the second thread Simon posted. What a classic! That thread is definitely one of my top five threads. I'm amazed that thread didn't erupt into a full blown flame war! Jason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soliloquy Posted June 30, 2000 Share Posted June 30, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Simon Fox: If you want to use the bocage defensively in CM you need to be behind it not in it (though as close as possible to it) this simulates the real life circumstance of being dug "in the bocage". <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Works for me, now that I understand it. Thanks, Simon! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts