Lacky Posted December 4, 2000 Share Posted December 4, 2000 After playing Combat Mission for the last year and tackling many situations, I conclude the Allied side point values are overbalanced. Since the conception of this game a uniformed method of tallying point values was generated. The methodology was/is based on number of men and firepower. So in essence, it's advantagous to have _less_ men in a platoon. Given that most infantry battles are conducted at less than 100 meters, units with exceedingly high short range firepower are excelling. The methodology used to calculate the current infantry values is blind without consideration of terrain. Germans: Hetzer's, StuH42's, SMG platoons, + a lot of other units are so cheap in comparison to Allied units it's putting this fine game to shame. Allied open topped tank destroyers are exceedingly overpriced compared to their counterparts solely due to their turrets. When a single 81mm mortar or 20mm AA shell can wipe out a 100+ point TD something is amiss. A close HE round is sufficient to take out a TD. This means almost any 75mm HE round will knock out an Allied open topped TD. I understand this issue has been tossed around on the board for a very long time. My research shows several heated debates about the point value system used. Experience from playing other players has shown me that MOST players tend to take the same type of units. There are a lot of "gamey" players. To finalize my comments: 1) The values of open topped vehicles should be decreased 2) SMG platoons are point for point too cheap I can't count the number of times I've heard the Axis player say, "I don't like what the computer chooses" <-- Key words for a SMG's, StuH42's, Hetzers, Puppchen's, etc.. etc... The point values are in error due to terrain not being considered in the equations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holien Posted December 4, 2000 Share Posted December 4, 2000 Hi, I am now starting to get an idea of what the points can get and how the forces bought can be used and I see some value in what you are saying. To add my 2p there does seem to be a reliance on Paras and Hezters for the Germans. This was really brought home when I played a game where I brought some Archers. I thought lets try something different and see how they can do. I was totally destroyed by one Hetzer which took them one by one. As well as some HE landing close by. The chap had also got some Paras and theior fire power at close range is awesome. Well needless to say I lost. I think that there does seem to be some imbalance of points while I could have used some different tatics my tanks were hopelessly out classed. Now I know this lesson I will only buy Churchills which makes the game IMO boring as you always end up fighting the same units. To counter this I have made agreements with other players to not buy those sort of units. This worked well on Saturday when I played a small 500pt game on a small map ME 20 turns using 2min TCP/IP. It was one of the most intense gaming experiences I have had in recent years. While the other chap did get a HTz I had enough small point armour to ram some 50 cal shells into his rear at the end of the game from an Allied HT. I guess what I am saying is if the points can be re-visted I agree they should. I see fortifications cost less which is excellent. If they don't get re-adjusted then I will (and suggest others do) agree limits on what can be bought in the interest of intense game play. Cheers H Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marlow Posted December 4, 2000 Share Posted December 4, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lacky: Allied open topped tank destroyers are exceedingly overpriced compared to their counterparts solely due to their turrets. When a single 81mm mortar or 20mm AA shell can wipe out a 100+ point TD something is amiss. A close HE round is sufficient to take out a TD. This means almost any 75mm HE round will knock out an Allied open topped TD. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> This sounds like a utilization problem, not a point value issue. American TDs, when properly deployed, are some of the most effective anti-armor units in the game. The turret offers a significant advantage over German TDs, and the speed of the M-18 is unmatched by any other unit with its firepower. Also, in regards to the Hetzer. Yes it is a tough nut to crack from the front, but it also has thin side armor, a low rate of fire, and limited ammunition supplies. [This message has been edited by Marlow (edited 12-04-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest wwb_99 Posted December 4, 2000 Share Posted December 4, 2000 Also, one thing can be done to avoid gamey buying habits: automatic purchase. While it is taking your life in the computer's hand to some extent, it makes for very interesting and suprising battles. And if you don't want to do automatic purchase, I suggest British Airborne infantry, which have a healthy dose of SMGs themselves. Also, SMG squads have a weakness, being completely ineffective at ranges exceding 75m or so. If you have us rifle squads you can ream a SMG platoon advancing upon your position. WWB ------------------ Before battle, my digital soldiers turn to me and say, Ave, Caesar! Morituri te salutamus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalem Posted December 4, 2000 Share Posted December 4, 2000 Besides, even assuming the point values are off (which they most assuredly will be for someone because they're inherently subjective), or off enough to 'unbalance' things, then enjoy the drama. I've read a fair amount of military history (as have a lot of us here) and I don't remember many passages that read "And the local commander surveyed his forces and was pleased at what he saw. Just the right amounts of this and that to balance the enemy, the terrain, and the local weather." Sometimes you lose. Just lose well. Think of it as a fighting withdrawal or blocking force scenario. You're not supposed to win, just buy time for other forces off map. -dale [This message has been edited by dalem (edited 12-04-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randy Mauldin Posted December 4, 2000 Share Posted December 4, 2000 I tend to agree that they are overpriced. And I understand that some vehicles have to be used differently than others. But I think the problem comes in by not having some sort of "Rarity Factor" involved in purchasing units. I like to buy my own units, whether that's realistic or not, but I should have some limitations on those purchases. I shouldn't be able to buy a Tiger or a Hetzer or a SMG squad whenever I want. I think some of the issues with German units being "too cheap" as opposed to Allied units would be overcome by a rarity factor. ------------------ Randy aka Prairiedog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterNZer Posted December 4, 2000 Share Posted December 4, 2000 Sheesh please lets avoid rarity factors for now. It's just a total pain to consider implementing and takes some of the fun of trying new things out. If you don't want to pick fancy units, don't, and if you don't want the enemy too, ask them not to! As for allies being overpriced, I don't understand how. I've played many games of CM and the side I play is largely irrelevant to the win or loss. My past two tcp/ip games have resulted in victories for the allies. As for the open-top tanks. I love 'em myself. The m18 and m10 are fast and they use their tungsten now, yummy. As for Archers, they were seen as a stop-gap tank by the Brits. Buy them for ammusement value only. Sure, allied troops aren't cut out for battle at 30m, so don't fight at that range! Try taking germans and taking on allied platoons at 100m + range.. gets tough for the germans. I firmly believe the game is pretty balanced at the moment. You just need to think carefully about your tactics, unit selection and play style with each different force and unit selection. PeterNZ ------------------ "I can be quite pleasant, you know" - Andreas "WHERE'S THE MOAT?!" - Jon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jshandorf Posted December 4, 2000 Share Posted December 4, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Marlow: This sounds like a utilization problem, not a point value issue. American TDs, when properly deployed, are some of the most effective anti-armor units in the game. The turret offers a significant advantage over German TDs, and the speed of the M-18 is unmatched by any other unit with its firepower. Also, in regards to the Hetzer. Yes it is a tough nut to crack from the front, but it also has thin side armor, a low rate of fire, and limited ammunition supplies. [This message has been edited by Marlow (edited 12-04-2000).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> What you say about the Hellcat is true but the two draws back are it cost and it difficulty in use. For instance.. While most German TDs can "hunt" other tanks American TDs can only "react and then hunt". American armor in general does not have the survivability to sit out in the open and "overwatch" without risking immediate death more than not. Such is the case in our battle. Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randy Mauldin Posted December 4, 2000 Share Posted December 4, 2000 A Rarity Factor could be toggled on or off at the discresion of the players. It sure beats asking your opponent, "hey don't buy Tigers okay?" It would in a clean and neat way put limits on your purchases without a lot of pre-set rules and conditions. ------------------ Randy aka Prairiedog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarmo Posted December 4, 2000 Share Posted December 4, 2000 A few thoughts. Yeah, I feel the Hetzer is a bargain. But then it suits my game style very well. Jumbo 76 is also too cheap IMO. I like SMG platoons and use a lot of 'em. But they are good only at real close range. On the other hand amis and brits get plenty of cheap extras. American companies come with a load of mortars and MG's. About the balance. Go and check rugged defense ladder tournament. Last time I checked, there were just as much victories for both germans and allies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Croda Posted December 4, 2000 Share Posted December 4, 2000 Regarding the rarity factor, didn't BTS say a month or so ago that they were considering adding something similar that the user would have the ability to toggle on or off? Was that dropped? Does anyone even remember what I'm talking about? Am I a loony bird? Loony, Loony, Loony, Loony! Loony, Loony, Loony, Loony! Rarity would be nice for people like me who would really prefer to play as historically accurate as possible, but don't have the knowledge to know that there were only 3.26 M10s in service in NorthWestern France in August '44, and that one of them had extra padding on the driver's seat because the driver had hemmerhoids. A rarity equation that considered those factors for me would be fantastic, though by no means necessary. I can lose no matter what my force composition! ------------------ <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Elijah Meeks: You rock, Croda<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aka_tom_w Posted December 4, 2000 Share Posted December 4, 2000 I think that discussion regarding the rarity factor was specific to CM2 on the Eastern Front in the NEXT rebuild of the game engine. There was never any talk of a rarity factor for CMBO IIRC. Comments? -tom w Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randy Mauldin Posted December 5, 2000 Share Posted December 5, 2000 Yeah I believe you are right. I did a search and I believe the rarity factor thing will be implented in CM2. Too bad it couldn't have made the cut in CMBO. Jarmo wrote: On the other hand amis and brits get plenty of cheap extras. American companies come with a load of mortars and MG's True. But have you noticed in like a 900 pt battle you can't buy a full American Company because you are limited to something like 400 points for infantry. You have to buy your platoons and all that other stuff separetly. (Unless you buy Green troops or something.) Sometimes you can do it, but I believe it cost more buying it that way. And you don't have a Company HQ unit since you can't buy one of those separately. ------------------ Randy aka Prairiedog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarmo Posted December 5, 2000 Share Posted December 5, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Randy Mauldin: True. But have you noticed in like a 900 pt battle you can't buy a full American Company because you are limited to something like 400 points for infantry. You have to buy your platoons and all that other stuff separetly. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Yeah, that's true. I guess WWII generals just didn't think about 900 point quick battles when they came up with the way the army was organized. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M. Bates Posted December 6, 2000 Share Posted December 6, 2000 I have said the same thing. BUT the Allies so have more durable infantry, and the Greyhound. So it's about even. ------------------ Great Quotes Maximus: "And what's that Rob? The rest of the world doesn't care? I can assure you that when Boris Yeltsin stepped down in Russia last New Years, the world cared. Oh wait, you live in Canada. That's right, Canada only cares 'aboot' Canada. The whole world could be on the brink of destruction and as long as Canadian soil isn't involved, they could care less. Does the phrase, "Isolationist China" mean anything to ya?" Rob/1: "Lets just say I dont like americans ok... if you have a prolbem with that Minumis is one of the resions." jshandorf: "Suck" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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