Brumbar, Sturm Tiger, sIG 33 Bison, Panther II

[The Oak]

Any plans to add these vehicles for the Germans? They weren't all that common (save the sIG 33), however it would be nice to use them in a scenario. The Panther II (schmallturm, 88mm) would be nice to use hypothetically (or the Panther with IR for night fighting).

[Vanir]

I doubt we'll ever see a Panther II, but a Panther F... One can only hope.

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Most people assume that the M in US vehicle designations means "Model". Thus, the Medium Tank M4 Sherman would be the "Model #4" Medium tank. This is incorrect. The M actually stands for "Mortality" and the number represents the life expectancy of the vehicle in minutes. - Bullethead

[Olle Petersson]

Well, the Bison is there, sort of, in the form of an 150mm arty spotter.

Of those you mention, the Brummbär seems most reasonable to have been included. (Used in the first line and in large enough numbers, I think.) Would provide an alternative to the Hummel.

Cheers

Olle

[PawBroon]

For the ones too lazy to do a search here are some pics.

Panther Ausf F:

Panther II:

Bison sIG33:

Brummbar (aka "Mine-might-be-short-but-it's-BULKY"):

And in the BULK pissing contest, the SturmTiger:

http://www.wargamer.org/GvA/

This site is choke full of info BTW...

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And NO Bauhaus I didn't say SELF EXPLORATORY.

[This message has been edited by PawBroon (edited 11-13-2000).]

[Snake Eyes]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by The Oak:

Any plans to add these vehicles for the Germans? They weren't all that common (save the sIG 33), however it would be nice to use them in a scenario. The Panther II (schmallturm, 88mm) would be nice to use hypothetically (or the Panther with IR for night fighting).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Posted by Big Time Software on January 03, 1999 at 22:52:48:

In Reply to: Re: Sturmorser. posted by Lokesa on January 03, 1999 at 22:40:13:

: Bigtime, you got to include this

Well, you can do something to stack the odds in your favor; find us a battle that even ONE of the 18 Sturmtigers took part in We have unit numbers, strengths, and vague deployment areas, but not one word about them in combat.

Because they are so few, and we can't find a battle to stick them in, the big old bad boy of Germany may well have to miss CM's initial release. However, an exciting battle description, complete with OBs, might make us work a little harder to find a way of getting it into the initial release <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm on a personal crusade to get the Sturmmörser (aka SturmTiger) in the CM series. So far I've gleaned the following:

A prototype Sturmtiger was transported on August 12th of 1944 to Pruszkow and next day was moved to Warsaw to take part in the German attempt to contain the Polish Home Army's Uprising. This Sturmtiger saw action in Starowka and Mokotow districts of Warsaw. One of the projectiles which failed to explode is still on the display in Museum Wojska Polskiego in Warsaw.

On August 28th, after successful debut, it was brought back to Alkett plant in Berlin-Spandau. In the early September of 1944, newly formed PzStuMrKp 1000, equipped with two Sturmtigers arrived in Warsaw. From August to December 1944, Alkett completed only 18 Sturmtigers which equipped four Panzer Sturmmorser Kompanie (PzStuMrKp) - 1000, 1001, 1002 and 1003, which served on the Western Front. Each company was to be equipped with 14 Sturmtigers. Seven took part in the Ardennes Offensive (PzStuMrKp1000 and 1001), while most of them took part in the defensive battles along the River Rhine. Sturmtigers proved be an excellent defensive weapon and had to be either destroyed by a heavy artillery bombardment or an air attack. It is reported that one single shot fired by Sturmtiger from PzStuMrKp 1001 completly destroyed three M4 Shermans.

Reference: http://www.achtungpanzer.com/sttig.htm

Additional information:

10 used in East with first action August 1944. Formed 3 companies the 1000, 1001, 1002. The 1000 and 1001 were used in the Ardennes offensive with 4 tanks each.

Company 1001 saw action in western Eifel. In March 1945 their last action was east of Bonn.

Company 1002 saw action in the Reichswald area. In March 1945 they moved to Rheinberg.

Here is an interesting link which includes a Quicktime movie of the Sturmmörser firing:

http://www.geocities.com/madsin72/esturmti.html

If anyone has additional information please post it and/or send me an email.

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It is easy to be brave from a safe distance. -Aesop

[Marlow]

While we are talking about adding mythological beasts, how about one for the Americans:

T-28

95 tons and 105mm main gun.

[This message has been edited by Marlow (edited 11-13-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Marlow (edited 11-13-2000).]

[Maximus]

Originally posted by Marlow:

While we are talking about adding mythological beasts, how about one for the Americans:

T-28

95 tons and 105mm main gun.

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Actually, IIRC, all of those vehicles were originally on the vehicle list prior to the Gold Demo. They pulled those vehicles due to the rarity of them, such as the Sturmtiger, and the engagement ranges of the others like the sIG33 and Brumbar. The only time those SPA vehicles could be used is on a very large map and kept at the back edge. So what BTS did was to provide spotters for these vehicles in the form as an 150mm Arty spotter as Olle said. These vehicles are considered to be just off-map.

Probably the use of these vehilces in other games were a bit abstracted as far as their minimum range. Remember, the battlefields in Talonsoft's Campaign (Front) series were a LOT larger than the battlefields in CM. Hell what was the size of one hex in those games? 250m?

[Guest Germanboy]

In the Imperial War Museum they play a movie showing a Bison in DF mode reducing a building, at a range of maybe 100m or less. The snippet is part of a movie showing (or so they tell us) scenes from the invasion of France and the low countries in 1940. It is not possible to tell whether anybody actually was in the building or whether it was a scene faked for making impressive newsreel. If someone was in there, poor them.

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Andreas

<a href="http://www.geocities.com/greg_mudry/sturm.html">Der Kessel</a >

Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission.

[This message has been edited by Germanboy (edited 11-13-2000).]

[The Oak]

I was thinking of the Sturmtiger while I was playing the Germans against the British (as the Brits used the 290mm Churchill AVRE to level buildings that contained my squads)....I thought it would be nice if I had a similar weapon: the Sturmtiger. The StuH 42 doesn't seem to pack enough punch for my needs.

In regards to the Bison: (In its various versions), I believe it was used for close support of the infantry rather than as SPA like the Wespe or Hummel (it was an infantry gun). I liked the mid turret mounting on the PzKw 38(t), AKA the 15cm sIG33(Sf) auf Pz Kpfw 38(t) Ausf H.

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by The Oak:

I was thinking of the Sturmtiger while I was playing the Germans against the British (as the Brits used the 290mm Churchill AVRE to level buildings that contained my squads)....I thought it would be nice if I had a similar weapon: the Sturmtiger. The StuH 42 doesn't seem to pack enough punch for my needs.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

WRT the AVRE, the big difference between the Sturmtiger and the AVRE is that the AVRE was deployed in larger numbers and has a well-documented combat history in North-West Europe. The game should not really be governed by what is desirable albeit unrealistic, IMO. I would rather see BTS see add vehicles that saw substantial combat (e.g. allied AAA or Buffaloes) than another 'cool' but very rare German vehicle that we would then encounter in every second quick battle.

WRT the Bison, somebody here did research (a long time ago, I believe) and IIRC said that none was around in France 1944, the last ones having been destroyed in Africa. Could be totally wrong though.

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Andreas

<a href="http://www.geocities.com/greg_mudry/sturm.html">Der Kessel</a >

Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission.

[This message has been edited by Germanboy (edited 11-13-2000).]

[Lordfluffers]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by The Oak:

I was thinking of the Sturmtiger while I was playing the Germans against the British (as the Brits used the 290mm Churchill AVRE to level buildings that contained my squads)....I thought it would be nice if I had a similar weapon: the Sturmtiger. The StuH 42 doesn't seem to pack enough punch for my needs.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Woa!!!! That's not a good enough reason to add a Sturmtiger. It doesn't make sense to start adding semi-fictional weapons just to 'suit your needs'! Hmmm. i think I need an Abrams, those Shermans just don't seem capable enough...

[The Oak]

It's all a matter of preference. If you're a historical purist, sure, having numerous Sturm Tigers would be unrealistic. I myself like to fight "what if" battles sometimes. That's one of the reasons I still play Grigsby's "War in Russia" quite often. In that game I always tinker with production and organization options to see how they would hypothetically effect the outcome of the war. Such as: What if the Panther was produced earlier? What if the ME 262 was put into full scale production in 1943? What if the Germans concentrated 100% effort on tank rather than assault gun production (as Guderain had wanted)? What if all manpower and resources for ground forces were concentrated in the German Army rather than the WSS and LW field divisions? ETC, ETC.

Having Sturm Tigers available is not like having an Abrams in CM, as the Sturm Tigers were certainly capable of being produced in greater numbers (the technology was available). In relation to the hypothetical, I'm currently fighting an operation (Allied Advance on a 1.2km x 4.9km map)with a fictitious German WSS Kampf Group composed of 1 panther company (17 tanks) and 3 platoons of Engineers (minus the halftracks, as I have them riding on the tanks). Each platoon has a Panzerschreck team, a flamethrower, and a 150mm spotter. There are also 4 Wirblewinds, and 4 PzKw II Lynx (with sharpshooters riding as scouts) attached. They're facing 4 squadrons of British Shermans (w/Fireflys as command tanks), in addition to attached Wolverines, Cromwells (95mm), Sextons, AVREs, and Churchill Crocs. (I used the British OOB from a Panzer Leader scenario as a guide). I've even thrown in some paras in the rear area to give the Germans an additional tactical problem. The KG starts out on the far eastern part of the map, and is acting as a "fire brigade" to bail out a green battalion of LW Field Division soldiers defending a river line. Is it realistic? Sure it isn't...and I'm aware of that from the beginning. It's a lot of fun however, and it allows me to test out possible tactics and outcomes. I still get burned if I employ my units incorrectly, so having this qualitatively superior unit does not make one invincible. It provides an opportunity to see what effect changes in German production and employment would have on the battlefield.

[The Oak]

In relation to the 150mm SP IG: I checked several of my references in regards to this piece of equipment.

90 15cm sIG 33 (Sf) auf PzKw 38(t) Ausf H (aka "Grille") (gun mounted over the center) were produced between FEB to APR 43.

282 15cm sIG 33/1 auf Sfl 38(t)Ausf K(gun mounted over the rear similar to Marder III) were produced from APR to JUN 43, and from OCT to SEP 44. This vehicle was AKA "Grille."

According to the Encyclopedia of German Tanks, the Grille "served on all fronts with the schwere Infanterie-geschutz companies (SP)of armored infantry regiments. No distinction was made between Grille with Ausf H or Ausf K chassis. In FEB 1945, 173 Grille were still listed as available for service."

I'm also sure there are higher priorities for possible vehicles to include in updates. However I personally am interested in German armor, and I may not be aware of other more prevalent allied vehicles. (Although I would like to see the quad mounted 50 cal on the M3 for the Americans).

[Snake Eyes]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lordfluffers:

Woa!!!! That's not a good enough reason to add a Sturmtiger...

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by The Oak:

It's all a matter of preference... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I must agree with Oak. If you don't like the idea of using rare vehicles such as the Sturmtiger, then don't include them in games you play. But to preclude those of us who are interested in seeing what the impact of these extraordinary vehicles had or may have had on the battlefield is unfair.

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It is easy to be brave from a safe distance. -Aesop

[This message has been edited by Snake Eyes (edited 11-13-2000).]

[Olle Petersson]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by The Oak:

In regards to the Bison: ... I believe it was used for close support of the infantry rather than as SPA like the Wespe or Hummel (it was an infantry gun).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Well, they were "closer" than the field artilley, but they still were regimental artillery, mainly used for indirect fire. (Just like the towed version.)

For those who want a better punch than the Wespe or StuH42: Use a Hummel, as on map artillery it should be pretty equivalent to the different Geschützwagen, GWs (the original Bison being GWI IIRC).

Cheers

Olle

[Colin]

The StuH42 can be an extremely deadly vehicle if used correctly. SPA vehicles are probably some of my favorite vehicles to use in CM. The Sexton is also quite an awesome weapon when used properly. They have plenty of ammo and the 25lb cannon is quite powerful against infantry and buildings.

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And if we abandon any platform, I can assure you it will not be the Macintosh.

-Steve

My website!

A major source of Wild Bill scenarios!

[Croda]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Snake Eyes:

I must agree with Oak. If you don't like the idea of using rare vehicles such as the Sturmtiger, then don't include them in games you play. But to preclude those of us who are interested in seeing what the impact of these extraordinary vehicles had or may have had on the battlefield is unfair.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey Snake, I've got to disagree. There comes a point where the line has to be drawn. BTS decided to draw it at items that were limited in service or production. From the sound of things, these tanks never saw all that much action, even though they're impact may have been fairly large.

If BTS were to model everything in the war, we'd be worrying about German civilians joining the fight in their towns, running wire for Artillery, differences in footwear, and the impact of a good night's sleep and healthy breakfast.

While I agree that the more they add, the cooler the game becomes, I also agree that BTS drew their line at the right place.

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"Nuts!"

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Snake Eyes:

But to preclude those of us who are interested in seeing what the impact of these extraordinary vehicles had or may have had on the battlefield is unfair.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I must also disagree - it is a question of opportunity cost. BTS can not simply hire more people to do the work, so for every outlandish vehicle they add, time on something more realistic, and therefore more valuable (this is a simulation of actual combat, not of what-ifs) has to be dropped. Precluding those of us who would enjoy more realistic vehicles like Allied AAA assets in the game from having these by insisting on BTS to model freaks is unfair.

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Andreas

<a href="http://www.geocities.com/greg_mudry/sturm.html">Der Kessel</a >

Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission.

[This message has been edited by Germanboy (edited 11-13-2000).]

[Snake Eyes]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Croda:

While I agree that the more they add, the cooler the game becomes, I also agree that BTS drew their line at the right place.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No argument here. I understand that BTS is working with limited resources. They made the right choice in getting CM published as soon as they could. The extra fluff can be added in patches and/or CM2+.

Nonetheless, I will continue to lobby for the inclusion of rare vehicles, especially the Sturmmörser. We are all interested in alternate history by the very fact that we play CM with its historical scenarios. The inclusion of rare vehicles expands the experience. If you reference my first post in this thread you will see a quote from BTS which indicates that they were willing to include Sturmmörser in CMBO, but didn't have enough information concerning its use. So they have set a criteria which is the guideline for inclusion of rare vehicles. It is incumbent upon us, the players, to voice our desires to have rare vehicles included and it is also our responsibility to provide references to BTS that will assist them in the modeling.

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It is easy to be brave from a safe distance. -Aesop

[Jeff Heidman]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Snake Eyes:

I must agree with Oak. If you don't like the idea of using rare vehicles such as the Sturmtiger, then don't include them in games you play. But to preclude those of us who are interested in seeing what the impact of these extraordinary vehicles had or may have had on the battlefield is unfair.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Fair has nothing to do with it. Everyone seems to think that including their pet vehicle is just a matter of BTS deciding to do so.

It is simply a matter of where to allocate finite resources. Should BTS include the SturmTiger or the M26? The AVRE or the Panther II? The Brumbar or the Firefly?

In general, BTS has chosen to spend their finite resources on those weapons which saw combat as opposed to those which did not, but would fulfill some peoples desire to play with a-historical weapons.

I think that was a good decision.

Granted, given an infinate amount of time and resources, we would all love to see everything posible. But that is not the case.

Jeff Heidman

[PawBroon]

I'm pretty much with GermanBoy on this.

As much fun the Brummbar and SturmTiger might be (well at least for the first five minutes) I am rather more willing to have mandatory but not included vehicules.

First of all is the one asked by the masses.

The M16 (Quad .50 on a HT).

My second choice would be the StagHound for the Canadians.

I do NOT miss huge beasts for the germans because they do quite well already.

But depriving the Canadians (and they ALONE) of an armored car they actually used is a bit unfair.

You can go and find hundreds of posts about what should have or what could be in the game.

I take it as an homage towards this great game.

But like it was for TCP/IP, you have to stop somewhere and deliver the goods...

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And NO Bauhaus I didn't say SELF EXPLORATORY.

[This message has been edited by PawBroon (edited 11-13-2000).]

[The Oak]

You could also ask the question: Who the heck cares about the Canadians anyways? (That's not my opinion, that's just what some people might ask). Personally I have no interest in using the Canadians in any scenarios, that's just a personal preference. Does that mean the Canadians should have been excluded from CM? Absolutely not. It's nice to have the option of using them if you want to, and perhaps someday I might.

I'm sorry, I didn't know adding an extra vehicle or two (or three..) took up a alot of extra resources and time. I understand the decision that was made (a logical one), however I would be willing to fork over an extra 10-15 dollars for the inclusion of extra vehicles. Again, it's not a big deal. I guess when a game as good as "CM" comes around you get a little greedy.

It's too bad it wasn't possible to have a vehicle editor with the game. With all the superb talent out there producing all the quality MODS, I'm sure someone would have come up with a Sturm Tiger by now. That would shift the burden of effort from the developers to the players, sort of like saying: "we developed the great game engine, now if you want extras you can modify the game as you please." Opening the "code" to modifications is what keeps old games going strong by increasing their replay-ability. That's why "steel Panthers" is still popular, and why the RTS game " Total Annihilation" hung on for so long. Gamers like options.

[Chupacabra]

Oak -

The mod question has been discussed many times. Do a search if you're interested in reading the arguments, but the gist is

A) It would take as much time for BTS to okay a user-generated mod as it would for them to just do it themselves, and

Screws up multiplayer.

The "yeah, but look at TF/CS/AQ2/whatever" argument has been brought up as well

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Grand Poobah of the fresh fire of Heh.

[Guest AbnAirCav]

FWIW, while I would like to see the ones that actually went into production included eventually, I am more interested in the release of CM2 and the Eastern Front (as well as CM3-North Africa/Med and CM4-Early War/Blitzkrieg).

Having said that, the Brummbär and Sturmtiger would also be high on my list of desired vehicles.

[Snake Eyes]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jeff Heidman:

Fair has nothing to do with it. Everyone seems to think that including their pet vehicle is just a matter of BTS deciding to do so.

It is simply a matter of where to allocate finite resources. Should BTS include the SturmTiger or the M26? The AVRE or the Panther II? The Brumbar or the Firefly?

In general, BTS has chosen to spend their finite resources on those weapons which saw combat as opposed to those which did not, but would fulfill some peoples desire to play with a-historical weapons.

I think that was a good decision.

Granted, given an infinate amount of time and resources, we would all love to see everything posible. But that is not the case.

Jeff Heidman<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not everyone thinks that it’s easy to add vehicles to the game engine. It’s understood that it requires considerable effort on the part of BTS. No one is advocating the inclusion of rare vehicles to the exclusion of common vehicles, either. However, BTS has chosen to include some rare vehicles already. Case in point:

PSW 234/2 Puma 101 produced

PSW 234/3 Heavy AC 88 produced

Jagdtiger 77 produced

Flammpanzer 38(t) Hetzer 20 converted

Pershing M26 20 saw action

Super Pershing T26E4 1 produced

I think BTS can best determine how they spend their development and programming time. But as you can see from the above list, they have taken the time to include some ‘pet vehicles’.

Since BTS has offered this forum for players to discuss the game, it’s important for players to voice their opinions concerning the inclusion of rare vehicles in the future. The inclusion of a few rare vehicles with each CM release would be very welcomed.

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It is easy to be brave from a safe distance. -Aesop