Germans, Nazis and SS -- oh, my!

[Hamstersss]

Granted, you are responsible for my qoute but I must disagree. You cannot argue that because there were other high quality soldiers, the Germans were not.

However, I will argue that the German super-soldier is a myth started by the Roman Empire after their defeat by Germanic barbarians. I mean, think about it, the bloody Germans never won a war after that! 2000 years, people!

-----

You wouldn't know the dust of Thermopylae if it came up to you, handed you a business card reading "Dust of Thermopylae, 480 B.C.E.", then kicked you in the shins.

-Hakko Ichiu

[This message has been edited by Elijah Meeks (edited 08-25-2000).]

[Major Tom]

I think the problem arises when people assume that soldiers are exactly like politicians. Soldiers don't necessarily always believe in the entire reason for fighting in a war (ie. most Germans didn't believe in the Nazi superace having a manifest destiny to rule the world) and did it mostly because it was their duty, for their families, and for their fellow soldiers.

I always find it amusing when certian bad documetaries, or newscasts mention some German attack in WWII stating... "The Nazi's invaded France in..."... It wasn't the Nazi's who invaded, it was the GERMAN ARMY that invaded!!! I bet only 1% of those who invaded France in 1940 were actually a part of the Nazi party! You don't say that the Democrats landed troops in North Africa in 1942, you say that the Americans landed troops in North Africa in 1942! Many people assume German=Nazi, even that SS=Nazi (not ALWAYS so).

It just happened to be that the Germans were fighting for the greater evil, directly or indirectly.

[Hakko Ichiu]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Elijah Meeks:

Granted, you are responsible for my qoute but I must disagree. You cannot argue that because there were other high quality soldiers, the Germans were not.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My point is that the sweeping generalization of the Germans as super-soldiers, best ever, yadda, yadda, yadda is just that: a sweeping generalization. Some German formations were excellent quality, others were ****e. This is the case in most armies, certainly in modern conscription-based ones.

I object, in general, to the idolization of the Wehrmacht and (especially) the SS. I have given my reasons for this in another thread (search on "Waffen SS"). I also object to some of the underlying theories in The Commissar's post, but this is not the place to discuss it.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>However, I will argue that the German super-soldier is a myth started by the Roman Empire after their defeat by Germanic barbarians. I mean, think about it, the bloody Germans never won a war after that! 2000 years, people!

/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What about the Seven Years War, Danish-Prussian War, Austro-Prussian War, and Franco-Prussian War? They did okay then.

[DrD]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hakko Ichiu:

Sorry, but this generalization is so broad as to fall into the big stinky barrel labeled "pure bilge water".

Were the Germans tougher than the Zulus who could run 50 miles and fight a battle at the end of it?

Were Volksgrenadier conscripts better trained than the U.S. and British soldiers who won the Gulf War?

Were they more professional than the Roman Legions that conquered most of the known world?

Were they better soldiers than the IDF, which has won four full-scale wars against enemies with a combined population 40 times greater?

Maybe you should pay a bit more attention in history class and not allow yourself to be seduced by all the black leather and big guns.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

1. Yes, read "Forgotten Soldier" and you'll see what I mean. Maybe they didn't run 50 miles but they did everything else. Also, "toughness" had to be judged in terms of the overall toughness of the world at the time. Sure in the 19th century some soldiers may have been tougher but

then again so was everyone else. With disease, starvation, no electricity, etc. they had to be.

2. No, but VG divisions aren't the best example of what were talking about. Also, if you include indoctrination since childhood via the Hitler Youth etc. then the answer for the rest of the Army is "yes."

3. Yes. They conquered much more territory than the Romans. They also never revolted against the state (other than certain officers the German Army as a whole never abandoned what they perceived as their duty.)

4. Well, this one's tough since the IDF never fought the Whermacht, but I think they're very comparable. Germany basically took on the world and came awefully close to winning.

Also, I suggest you keep your debates a touch more civil. That last paragraph was rather impolite especially as this is all a matter of opinion. I mean, how can we compare the toughness and professionalism of armies so widely divergent in time and place? It's meaningless. All we can do is GUESS and render OPINIONS. Please don't disparage other's opinions. I certainly paid attention in my history classes and to the many books I've read in the last 20 years and I find myself disagreeing with you. However, I thank you for making me think and I certainly respect your opinion.

[Steve Clark]

Elijah, sorry, I did see the wink but I thought you were going to start a 'South Shall Rise Again' debate. I'm not well versed on WW2 histories but I am on the ACW. So if you want to start a debate, I'll put more than my .02 cents in...

[SS_PanzerLeader]

Thiis was said above:

I object, in general, to the idolization of the Wehrmacht and (especially) the SS. I have given my reasons for this in another thread (search on "Waffen SS"). I also object to some of the underlying theories in The Commissar's post, but this is not the place to discuss it.

Statements like this is what is a bit much for me to swallow ...it is a huge unsubstantiated leap of logic to associate someones name or the fact they like to play as germs and then to stereotype them as idolators of SS warcriminals.

Maybe Im outta line maybe this was meant for a specific nameless individaul rather than the gamers in general that like germs or their equip but it didnt seem that way.

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SS_PanzerLeader.......out

[Hamstersss]

quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What about the Seven Years War, Danish-Prussian War, Austro-Prussian War, and Franco-Prussian War? They did okay then.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Those weren't real wars.

[Gen-x87]

I have to disagree with number one. The German army MAY have been really quite efficient in certain areas but it wasn't army wide. Everyone marvels at Germany's 'efficient' Panzer forces but they always forget that those mechanized forces were a small fraction of the German army. Overall the German army was plagued by its inefficiency. So much of it relied on horse power or feet to move it around. The German army as a whole was hampered by its overall lack of motorization and mechanization.

Ill give you that one, it was a combination of Hitlers shortsightness, always fighting, and a combined world effort. For the time they were on the offensive they really were quite efficient at breaking lines and eveloping the enemy. In the end they ran up against a larger army with more weapons

And yes I learned after the V4V series of games that the germans almost never had Mech infantry.

As for number two, it may be true that the US didn't have the most menacing tank but they did have the tank that was one of the most widly produced and did win the war. The Germans were designing a new tank for just about everything that came along. The US settled on one basic design and was determined to mass-produce it. The Germans would have been better off, IMO, selecting fewer and less-complicated designs and building as many as they could instead of producing a few highly technical beasts.

This is the chinaSyndrome as I like to call it. I would hardly call the chinese army anything great. But they sure can throw some cannon fodder at you. I think we could have produced a better tank than the sherman and I believe all the crews who watched in horror as thier shells bounced off Panther and Tiger tanks only to watch a 3 foot hole open up in thiers would agree.

Gen

[Hakko Ichiu]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SS_PanzerLeader:

Thiis was said above:

I object, in general, to the idolization of the Wehrmacht and (especially) the SS. I have given my reasons for this in another thread (search on "Waffen SS"). I also object to some of the underlying theories in The Commissar's post, but this is not the place to discuss it.

Statements like this is what is a bit much for me to swallow ...it is a huge unsubstantiated leap of logic to associate someones name or the fact they like to play as germs and then to stereotype them as idolators of SS warcriminals.

Maybe Im outta line maybe this was meant for a specific nameless individaul rather than the gamers in general that like germs or their equip but it didnt seem that way.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I wasn't referring to you, SS_Panzerleader, or to people who like to play as the Axis in CM. FWIW, I prefer to play as the Allies against the AI, but in PBEM it probably works out 50/50:Axis/Allies.

You have to admit that there is a certain amount of what I describe on this board and in WW2 wargaming in general. If there weren't we wouldn't have this thread in the first place. And I don't think you have to search too far back in your memory for persons on this board who were singing the praises of the SS.

Also, please read what I wrote carefully. There is quite a distinction between "respect" for the Wehrmacht, which I myself have in abundance, and the "idolization" to which I object.

The crack at the bottom of my first post in this thread is just a crack, and perhaps a bit unfair. Even so, if it's not applicable to the specific individual at which it was directed, I'm sure it applies to a reasonably large sub-group of those who idolize the SS, which is pretty ironic if you think back to the pre-war history of the Nazi Party.

[Guest Mr. Johnson-<THC>-]

Anyone going to ask me about the moral implications about changing my name to Darth Vader Lord of the Sith? I mean look at how he hunted down the Jedi Knights one by one, and brought an even darker shadow of evil across the galaxy. When we (the Empire) destroyed Alderaann we killed more people in that one second then all the people killed in the 20th century.

[SS_PanzerLeader]

Haiko,

as I said in the latter portion of my post maybe I was getting your intenet.. Im glad that you clarified

As for large groups of wargamer diolizing the ss or germs i dont think that is so... idolization is a very strong word.. stron g interest or fascination maybe but there is a big difference IMO

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SS_PanzerLeader.......out

[Henri]

For some people, opining that the German soldier was the best fighting soldier of WW2 is akin to Nazi-worship. Whether we like it or not, it is a fact, although it is clear that not ALL German soldiers were of this ilk.

The reasons are well-known, the two main ones being the Prussian warrior ethic and the early indoctrination of German youth into paramilitary organizations (not to mention propaganda). This was not so original, the Spartans did it centuries ago, and it DID generate superior fighting men.

It is unfortunate that moderate people always find themselves caught between knee-jerk Nazi-worshippers and knee-jerk German-haters. The less said about the former the better, but it seems that the latter have difficulty reconciling the dark side of WW2 Germany with the excellence of their military (If Nazi Germany was evil then their soldiers mush have been bad). The excellence of the German fighting man is not diminished by their occasional lack of competent leadership, the evil nature of their political leaders, nor by their lack of a fully mechanized army, nor by the bottom-of-the-barrel nature of their remnants in 1945.

Henri

To him whose only tool is a hammer, everything in the world looks like a nail. (I wish I had said that)

[MadDog0606]

I don't believe this. Two threads closed because of the Name Game. Are we working on a third now?

I get it. We're going for a record.

[L.Tankersley]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SS_PanzerLeader:

...it is a huge unsubstantiated leap of logic to associate someones name or the fact they like to play as germs and then to stereotype them as idolators of SS warcriminals.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

"E. coli: the hidden Nazi menace in our midst!" (sorry, couldn't resist)

I just want to point out that this sort of reaction is not completely irrational. By voluntarily choosing to associate yourself (however remotely) with a name, idea or concept, you (IMO) have to accept the baggage that comes along with that association. I don't think we've got a lot of closet Nazis on this board or anything like that; but I do think that an outside observer that just happened to look in and see all these names might draw different conclusions. I can be fairly dispassionate about the whole thing, because my family wasn't closely touched by WWII (although one of my grandfathers did serve in the US Army in Italy), but I think it's understandable that people whose lives were dramatically affected by the war and by the Nazis and their policies might take things more personally.

------------------

Leland J. Tankersley

[Hamstersss]

Hey Steve, I'll be happy to debate the most important event of the 19th century some time. Its my focus more than this paltry WWII, as well. As to my leanings, let's just say that all of my American Airborne troops wear -slightly- different uniforms in my games of CM...

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You wouldn't know the dust of Thermopylae if it came up to you, handed you a business card reading "Dust of Thermopylae, 480 B.C.E.", then kicked you in the shins.

-Hakko Ichiu

[Mark IV]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DrD:

They conquered much more territory than the Romans..<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh, dear. I'd really like to not be part of this thread, but...

I'm not sure occupying an area for a year or two really counts as "conquering". The German occupation of large areas of the USSR was more like a temporary configuration of a large and fluid front. Considered over the course of the war, it was very temporary. North Africa? Interesting adventure, but not really a conquest.

The Romans administered and ruled vast areas, including all known (to them) centers of civilization, for hundreds of years, and disseminated their language, law, and culture throughout them. This empire included England, France, parts of modern Germany and Eastern Europe, Greece, the Middle East, North Africa, etc.

Even without semantical distinctions, I think the area Rome ruled compared quite well to that of the Third Reich.

[Lindan]

Some very good and interesting posts here.

I can't say that I like being called a nazi by an obscure "professor" just because I'm German though .

One of my grandfathers was and still is a follower of the Nazi ideology. (still has an A. Hitler bust in one of his rooms).

My other grandfather had a hard time in his youth because he wanted to have nothing of this whole NSDAP and "Führer" stuff. (nearly failing his final exams at the end of his apprenticeship for the sole reason that he didn't know when Hitlers birthday was is just one small example).

In his own words he considers Hitler the "greatest asshole that ever lived on this earth". Nonetheless he was drafted into the Wehrmacht and served from 1939-45 on all fronts.

BTW, they don't get along very well...

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visit lindan.panzershark.com

member of the Combat Mission webring

[Steve Clark]

paltry WW2?!? I bet that'll get a response around here.

While we are all calling each other names...nah, I'll skip it for some other time. Since I've been here, there have been some good ACW debates (and probably many more before then). So if you want to start a thread comparing the rise and fall of Nazism to the Confederacy...

[SS_PanzerLeader]

Well to be honest and a little blunt, this is a wargaming community and what the outside observer thinks really isnt all that relevant IMO. (Not trying to be a jerk so please dont take that wrong )

What is relevant is the extreme opinions of certain individuals that seem to want to look down their noses at others over the most stupid crap, and then force their ideals and morals on them.

Its the same with the gamey crap ..Oh if this person does that they are gamey And Im better than that .. or if this person supports a roster or a grid we are better than that.. This is getting absurd. This is a game and was a pretty good forum!

I agree that blatant glorfication of the nazis is BS. But a name is nothing more than that and it is a very relevant one to this game and that is why I chose it and have never had any crap over it til i got here with the elitist crowd.

I gamed in the zone for two years with this name never heard a word from ANYONE. NEver once did a conversation like the ones in these latest three threads ever pop up. I just dont understand the attitudes.

Im playing a game what is important is that my opponent is an honorable stand up player who would not cheat. I dont care what his name is, I dont care what he believes in,I dont care about his religion, color, sexual preference, or bank account size.

I dont make it my business to put my self in the holier than tho department, christ we had a transvestite playing CC2 and they took less crap than what some have recieved in here.

People should really get a clue

this rant really was directed at no one in particular but if the shoe fits wear it!

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SS_PanzerLeader.......out

[Hakko Ichiu]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DrD:

1. Yes, read "Forgotten Soldier" and you'll see what I mean. Maybe they didn't run 50 miles but they did everything else. Also, "toughness" had to be judged in terms of the overall toughness of the world at the time. Sure in the 19th century some soldiers may have been tougher but

then again so was everyone else. With disease, starvation, no electricity, etc. they had to be.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

"Forgotten Soldier" is a work of fiction and Guy Sajer's actual role in the war is a matter of dispute. Sure, soldiers in war, especially when on the defensive, outgunned, and freezing endure all sorts of hardship. The Wehrmacht did in the East, and so did the Screaming Eagles at Bastogne. I object to the unthinking absolute which, as you point out, is essentially unproveable.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>2. No, but VG divisions aren't the best example of what were talking about. Also, if you include indoctrination since childhood via the Hitler Youth etc. then the answer for the rest of the Army is "yes."

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, if the Germans in WW2 were the most professional soldiers ever, as The Commissar quite literally said, then why exempt the VG. And how does blind obedience to a de-based racist ideology make one a better or more professional soldier?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>

3. Yes. They conquered much more territory than the Romans. They also never revolted against the state (other than certain officers the German Army as a whole never abandoned what they perceived as their duty.)

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I could just as easily argue that the Romans captured a larger portion of their known world and without the benefit of the internal combustion engine. And perhaps the 3rd Reich collapsed militarily the legions had a chance to revolt.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>4. Well, this one's tough since the IDF never fought the Whermacht, but I think they're very comparable. Germany basically took on the world and came awefully close to winning.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly, so why insist that the Wehrmacht were the best ever. It's untestable and unproveable. And I would argue that, in the long run, Germany never had a chance once it attacked Russia w/o first finishing off Britain, not to mention once it declared war on the US.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>

Also, I suggest you keep your debates a touch more civil. That last paragraph was rather impolite especially as this is all a matter of opinion. I mean, how can we compare the toughness and professionalism of armies so widely divergent in time and place? It's meaningless. All we can do is GUESS and render OPINIONS. Please don't disparage other's opinions. I certainly paid attention in my history classes and to the many books I've read in the last 20 years and I find myself disagreeing with you. However, I thank you for making me think and I certainly respect your opinion.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thank you, but I've lived long enough not to be lectured on civility. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but all opinions are not equally valid. Some opinions deserve to have scorn heaped upon them. "The Germans were the best ever" is one of those.

Your point is perfectly correct: we can't compare armies across time in any meaningful way; hence, the statement that "The Germans were the best ever" is meaningless, and your point complements mine exactly. Therefore, I respect it. Even if I did not agree with it (or it with me), I would respect it because it is based on logic and evidence, unlike "the Germans were the best ever".

As to my final jibe, as I said elsewhere, it was just a jibe. I don't know the Commissar, and wouldn't presume to guess at his motivations.

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Ethan

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Das also war des Pudels Kern! -- Goethe

[Guest Rommel22]

Looks like I should say something.

Well, I don't think Rommel is a nazi related name. Some of my teachers in high school talked good about Rommel and showed movies like desert fox. Most people don't consider Rommel as a nazi, just a military man. I picked the name Rommel, because he really had some elan, probavly best tactician in the world at his time.

As for using nazi names alse where. Well I play a online game (name not important) where my name is nazicommmie. Now thats a joke, I do not support nazi beliefs or communistic beliefs. I just pick the name, because obviously they don't go together and it's a joke. I heard that name in the Simpsons.

As a leader name I picked Adolf Stalin, now you can see it's even a bigger joke. I know some jewish people on that site and they though it was funny, they weren't offended at all.

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From the Das Reich book as said by a German soldier

"when the Russians reached us, we opened fire, the first wave had no weapons.

The second wave didn't either (fire fodder). The 3rd and 4th had weapons and opened fire on us.

By this time we were low on ammo, but we drove them back."

[Oberst Angsthase]

Part of my affinity for taking the german side comes from the fact that I speak a little german (less every year).

Part of it is the underdog factor, not so much from history but american media. As a little kid watching TV you just felt bad for the one side that kept losing so spectacularly.

Lastly, a lot of my enjoyment in playing the axis comes from all the model tanks I built as a youth. While I built models of many nationalities, I liked the german tanks the most because of the design esthstetic and the fact that they weren't painted olive drab all over. Working out the camoflage pattern of yellow, rust, and green was one of my favorite parts of the process. I used to set my tanks up in little diaramas and stuff. Now I get to play with them all over again, only this time they shoot and burn The time came when I had to get rid of my models, so I sent them over to a lady who acts as a clearing house of stuff, receiving unwanted things and finding people who need them. Her husband saw the box of models, and sheepishly asked if he could keep them. He had been an artillery FO for the US 4th infantry division from Normandy till the end. I couldn't think of a better home for models.

cheers

[Daveman]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by The Commissar:

The SS and most German armed forces in general were the toughest, most well trained, and proffesional fighting men the world has ever seen.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I may be entering dangerous waters here, as my own knowledge of WWII isn't a deep as many here, but...

Besides their esprit de corps and their, shall we say "fanaticism", I got the impression the waffen SS weren't so hot compared to the regular army troops. Maybe this was just discrimination from the regular army, who never considered the SS as "professional" as they.

By the time of CM, I gather their experience and abilties had improved, but that their record still didn't match up to their reputation.

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"You know our standing orders. Out of ammo become a bunker, out of commission become a pillbox, out of time... become heroes." - The Beast

[Insu]

This thread is going out of line, however I do agree with Mark IV. Even comparing the Third Reich with the Roman Empire is just a lot of bull.

And Lindan, I have some similar experience (I´m half German) though more distant than you.

And Henri, I do agree with you in some of your reasoning about the German soldier but folks we´re all humans, no one can ever argue (and probably isn´t) that the Germans were better soldiers just because they are Germans, in other words good soldiers by special genetics.

Training, indoctrination and experience/motivation. Don´t forget that Reichswehr consisting of 100000 man did have a lot of time and limited resources to train, try new strategies and become the backbone of the German army.

Stop this bull thread or get back to what the thread was all about, though this IS a CM forum not a political one.

Personally I think the forum is getting worse by the day. Didn´t it all start as a CM forum?

[Major Tom]

Well, I don't know if anyone really pays attention to anyone's opinion but their own, but, there is merit in just about every argument.

The use of Nazi type names, and glorifying SS commanders might appear like pro-Nazi sentiment, but, the vast majority (100%?) are ANTI-NAZI. You can respect someones actions AND STILL disagree with their political motives.

Germans and Nazi during WWII become the same thing to many people. However THIS OPINION IS WRONG. It is just like saying that all of the US troops that fought in the Gulf War were Republicans (becuase the Republican party was in power then).

Quality wize, the best of the best in Germany were better than the best of the Allies. This was probably due to the fact of a LONG military tradition (not necessarily blind devotion to Hitler). There were some great Allied formations, but, these never managed to be better than the best of the German formations. Sure, there were many cruddy German formations, worse than the worse Allied units.