Guest Scott Clinton Posted June 27, 2000 Share Posted June 27, 2000 Finally got my game today... I had a blast playing three games tonight. But I have a question regarding a couple of lines of sight I saw. I was of the understanding that in both of these situations the LOS SHOULD HAVE been blocked. It was not. The end result of both cases was a knocked out tank. If I missed something in the manual let me have it...I deserve it. Because I frankly have not cracked it yet. Oh, btw when I check LOS after the action phase it was completely blocked. (sorry for the image sizes, slow load) ------------------ Please note: The above is solely the opinion of 'The Grumbling Grognard' and reflects no one else's views but his own. [This message has been edited by Scott Clinton (edited 06-27-2000).] [This message has been edited by Scott Clinton (edited 06-27-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest KwazyDog Posted June 27, 2000 Share Posted June 27, 2000 Scott, Im wondering if the first one happened becuase the firing unit could just see him through boccage? I am pretty sure that los can carry a short way through it. The sedond one my best guess is that you got very lucky and could just seem him through the 'cracks' in the smoke. Youll notice that the line dosnt pass straight though the centre of any smoke plumes. Anyways, just some thoughts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Scott Clinton Posted June 27, 2000 Share Posted June 27, 2000 Sorry but I don't 'buy it' Krazydog. No more smoke dropped on the turn the one was taken...yet after the action phase all LOS to the gun was blocked. If anything it would have been better right (with the smoke dispersing)? In the other, the same thing. After the action phase LOS to the immobilized tank was totally blocked. I had to move around the side of the bocage to finally KO the bugger. ------------------ Please note: The above is solely the opinion of 'The Grumbling Grognard' and reflects no one else's views but his own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest KwazyDog Posted June 27, 2000 Share Posted June 27, 2000 Oh thats interesting then I see what you mean scott, if he was knocked out and nothing had chanceg then theoritically you should still have an los to the target.....interesting situation indeed. Im suprised you noticed it twice yet Ive never noticed it myself. Just to double check your using 1.01 Scott ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Zulu1 Posted June 27, 2000 Share Posted June 27, 2000 Scott, that was the German 88mm APMDCS shell. The Germans only made a few of them and you got very unlucky. Oh, BTW APMDCS = Armor Piercing Mitt Der Chainsaw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullethead Posted June 27, 2000 Share Posted June 27, 2000 What about troop quality? I'm getting the impression that better troops see further in bad conditions. Also, I suspect there is some "under the hood" dust effect on LOS going on. Sometimes I've seen the LOS to an area under HE bombardment be blocked here and there where before it wasn't. Like from the dust from the explosions. Maybe that's why there was no LOS at the end of the turn here? ------------------ -Bullethead It was a common custom at that time, in the more romantic females, to see their soldier husbands and sweethearts as Greek heroes, instead of the whoremongering, drunken clowns most of them were. However, the Greek heroes were probably no better, so it was not so far off the mark--Flashman [This message has been edited by Bullethead (edited 06-27-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeAcH Posted June 27, 2000 Share Posted June 27, 2000 Okay, here's one for you all to digest! (BTW Scott, I agree with you that there is a bug here) LOS in the game needs an adjustment. You'll see my pic below. In it, two tanks are trading shots. How? You see, this is wrong. Mostly because of the fact that the game purports to have true LOS but in actuality, it doesn't. What effect does that have on gameplay? A lot!. First, my pic (see below) I should point out that the Tank destroyer is behind the third house and shares the same elevation. Tell me how that is NOT a flaw? Now, from a tactical perspective, how can I effectively plan an attack using cover and concealment when tanks can fire through bocage, smoke, and houses? BTS, you guys are great, no doubt about that. And you are very responsive to our questions and comments. Can you take another look at the modeling and or LOS issues? Is the engine tapped out in that regard and is this as good as the LOS is going to be? Again, Scott, I agree with you man. Im not here to rip CM apart. I love the game! Thanks TeAcH [This message has been edited by TeAcH (edited 06-28-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hnh3_cm Posted June 27, 2000 Share Posted June 27, 2000 Haven't really seen any glaring LOS problems myself. I have noticed that buildings seem to be a little bit 'off' compared to the demos. By this I mean that when placing units inside buildings, sometimes the open ground seems to reach 'inside' a building on one side, like the bulding is off center somehow. If this is the case, then that could have an effect on LOS as well. I've played nothing but Quick Battles so far, so this problem (if there is one) could be related to the map creator. The corners of buildings have always seemed, to me, rather suspect LOS-wise. As for the smoke, I don't depend on that unless I can totally saturate an area. Smoke has always been an obscurant, not some kind of cloaking device. Weather conditions cause all kinds of little openings in smoke screens (something not possible to represent on screen, given current graphics standards), especially those created by a bunch of randomly scattered shells. Smoke created by smoke generators is much more effective, of course. I've seen nothing in my own games that I would consider outside the realm of possibility considering weather related vagaries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tgra Posted June 27, 2000 Share Posted June 27, 2000 This isn't a 'scale' issue is it? If it's not already on 'real' scale perhaps there's a gap between the houses? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMC Posted June 27, 2000 Share Posted June 27, 2000 Did anybody see anything like this in the Gold Demo? I can't recall any comments. Someone should do a search.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rollstoy Posted June 27, 2000 Share Posted June 27, 2000 If Combat Mission is vector based instead of tile based (on the micro-scale, that is, like Close Combat) then this has to be a bug! If it is tile based on the micro-scale, i.e. the LOS calculations are performed on a grid of discrete points (CC!) then we will face the same problems of 'what you see is not what you get' as before! I hope there will be a comment from BTS on this issue! Regards, Thomm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Scott Clinton Posted June 27, 2000 Share Posted June 27, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>What about troop quality?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> In the one picture with the Sherman it was targeted by an Elite Crew, while the Sherman was Green/Conscript. In the smoke picture the targeting units were a regular Sherman and the gun which is either (Green or Conscript, I don't remember which) I was unable to take additional pictures because of another unrelated problem with my graphics card (it crashes the graphics when I multitask), but this SAME gun was targeted by and targeted at least three other units during this turn. All at different angles. All appeared to go through at least two smoke plumes. BTW the smoke was 81mm, and when show from closer angles it is clear that the LOS does NOT pass through any gaps. I used the zoomed out picture to show the LOS as much as possible. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>As for the smoke, I don't depend on that unless I can totally saturate an area. Smoke has always been an obscurant, not some kind of cloaking device.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Quite right, I agree. BUT if I check LOS at them start of my phase and it is BLOCKED...then during the action phase it is NOT blocked and I lose a tank (or the AI loses a tank)...then after the action phase the same LOS is blocked again...something is wrong. When a LOS can be traced through multiple smoke plumes, but only during the action phase, there is a problem. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I hope there will be a comment from BTS on this issue!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I am sure they will comment on this when/if they feel they can address it properly, either with a "Look, you grumber it works this way..." or "Oooops...next patch" or maybe even "We are working on it." Have faith Brothers! I am not here to tear the game apart, I love it. But if we see something that does not look right, and we don't say something to BTS how are they going to fix it? ------------------ Please note: The above is solely the opinion of 'The Grumbling Grognard' and reflects no one else's views but his own. [This message has been edited by Scott Clinton (edited 06-27-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingfish Posted June 27, 2000 Share Posted June 27, 2000 TeAch, What scale are you playing in? This problem came up in VoT re: Barbwire. Some things that look to be touching / blocking LOS in 2x scale will have big gaps in realistic scale. ------------------ The dead know only one thing - it is better to be alive Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Scott Clinton Posted June 27, 2000 Share Posted June 27, 2000 HEY! I just thought of a possible reason for the Bocage LOS picture... What if when the Sherman Firefly was moving in the action phase it was close enough to the bocage that my tank REALLY DID have LOS (something that it did not have prior to the action phase when it moved). Then my tank fired and got an immobilization hit on the tank. Then, because CM is so cool, the tank 'coasted' for another 3-4 meters...just enough to move it out of LOS. The more I think about it the more I think this just might be what happened in this case. But it still does not explain the 'SMOKE LOS'. BTW My pics are at "realistic scale". ------------------ Please note: The above is solely the opinion of 'The Grumbling Grognard' and reflects no one else's views but his own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexasToast Posted June 28, 2000 Share Posted June 28, 2000 I wanted to confirm hnh3's observation regarding "soft" building corners. I have seen this in VOT where a Sherman fired between two buildings at an angle where no visible crack existed from the #1 view. In the 1.01 version I also saw a tank eliminate an HMG team where the red targeting line went substantially through the corner of a building, then later a halftrack parked itself partially in the corner of a different building (at realistic scale). In the firing case I just chalked it up to the fact that the HMG crew doesn't occupy a single point in space, it is actually spread out over an area, some of which may be visible? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted June 28, 2000 Share Posted June 28, 2000 Scott, Yes I think that explains the bocage LOS issue. It's possible to see a few meters 'past' bocage, and the vehicle probably rolled over that threshold. Not sure about the smoke. It looks like a very close call on visibility, but I will keep an eye out for a bug. Charles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeAcH Posted June 28, 2000 Share Posted June 28, 2000 Ill check the scale again. Thats a good point. I think it was realistic but Ill see. I hope thats it. BTW, I reloaded my pic above. For some reason it stopped loading. Sorry to those that missed it. TeAcH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeAcH Posted June 28, 2000 Share Posted June 28, 2000 Okay. I checked and it is at the Realistic setting. Also, the setting only changes the sizes of the units not the buildings so it doesnt seem to be an issue in the matter anyway. I took two more shots from the reverse angle. Remember...these are at that Realistic scale: Charles? Steve? Any comments on this issue? Thanks, TeAcH [This message has been edited by TeAcH (edited 06-28-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lorak Posted June 28, 2000 Share Posted June 28, 2000 Hey Teach. any way you could just post the url for those pics? angelfire doesn't seem to like you embeding them here. Lorak ------------------ http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/combatmissionclub Lorak's FTX for CM <--Proud member of the Combat Mission Webring Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeAcH Posted June 28, 2000 Share Posted June 28, 2000 Thanks Lorak...did it. Hope that works. Guess I cant gripe about Angelfire. It is free after all. TeAcH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Scott Clinton Posted June 28, 2000 Share Posted June 28, 2000 Ahhhh, Hell don't start that crap! You can always gripe! Just look at me! ------------------ Please note: The above is solely the opinion of 'The Grumbling Grognard' and reflects no one else's views but his own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeAcH Posted June 28, 2000 Share Posted June 28, 2000 Okay...so Angelfire SUCKS!!! I moved them to GTE. They should all display. Now, back to the matter at hand. See what I mean. No LOS and whammo my tank dies soon after. Not Cool! TeAcH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt.Morgue Posted June 28, 2000 Share Posted June 28, 2000 Charles, This is just a wild guess about the LOS bug though the buildings. But the game may be looking though them for a distance just like if you were inside a building , you can see a few meters inside of the building. In this case the edge of the three buildings doesn't add up to the distance required to block LOS in a building. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy 4 Eyes Posted June 28, 2000 Share Posted June 28, 2000 TeAcH has been nice enough not to mention that he was playing me in this game. I have to admit that I was surprised that my tank not only targeted his tank, but fired and hit it. I watched from my end with the unit locked and on screen level "1" and I could not see his tank... This may be a bug worth looking at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seanachai Posted June 28, 2000 Share Posted June 28, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jimmy 4 Eyes: TeAcH has been nice enough not to mention that he was playing me in this game. I have to admit that I was surprised that my tank not only targeted his tank, but fired and hit it. I watched from my end with the unit locked and on screen level "1" and I could not see his tank... This may be a bug worth looking at. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> What, are you guys all blind?! The shell is passing through windows kitty corner to each other on the first house, the same again on the second house, and just squeeking by the corner of the third house! ------------------ After witnessing exceptional bravery from his Celtic mercenaries, Alexander the Great called them to him and asked if there was anything they feared. They told him nothing, except that the sky might fall on their heads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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