Spotting The Spotters

[ThunderDuck]

I enjoy this game so much I have decided to come out of the "woodwork" and join in the fun. My question concerns the forward observers. It seems to me that even when in exellent covering terrain, they are easily spotted by enemy units. Without getting to specific, in VOT my spotters are being fired at a few seconds into the game even though they are in tall pines. It would seem that 2 men in the cover of trees would not be easily seen. Aren't they hiding behind the trees? What am I missing here?

Enough ranting. Now to introduce myself to the board. I got my start with wargames playing Panzerblitz with a buddy while stationed at the NAVCOMSTA on Adak, Alaska (over 30 years ago). Now work for the Dept. of State. I have been looking for the "perfect" wargame for a long time (Across the Rhine, Amored Fist, Panzer Commander, iPanzer 44; just to name a few). CM looks and plays great. I learn something new everytime I play it. Looking forward to the rest of the series.

Sorry for running off at the 'fingers', so I will close this now. I have learned a lot from reading the posts on this board and am sure I will learn even more in the future.

[Blackhorse]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ThunderDuck:

It seems to me that even when in exellent covering terrain, they are easily spotted by enemy units. Without getting to specific, in VOT my spotters are being fired at a few seconds into the game even though they are in tall pinesI learn something new everytime I play it. Looking forward to the rest of the series.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

A couple quick questions for you. Have you issued them the "Hide" command? Are you playing against the AI or against a human?

if you are playing a human, there is a strong chance they have played the scenario before and know to pepper the hill and trees with indirect fire to suppress your FOs. If it is against the AI, then you probably need to "hide" the poor FOOS

[Bullethead]

Tall pines apparently don't have much underbrush to hide in--I find it easier to spot units in tall pines than in woods, for example. However, in almost all cases at ranges greater than a couple hundred meters, only units that move or shoot get spotted.

So, if you set your FOs up in the tall pines on Hill 216 with an LOS all over the map, but do not move them at all, they are essentially invisible until the enemy gets fairly close to them. This is whether they hide or not.

However, like Blackhorse said, humans know where to expect you to put your FOs so will often area fire Hill 216 as a precautionary measure.

------------------

-Bullethead

jtweller@delphi.com

WW2 AFV Photos: people.delphi.com/jtweller/tanks/tanks.htm

[Maximus]

Yes Bullethead is right. Actually tall pines don't produce that much cover. Think about it. In a pine forest, the floor is usually covered in pine needles which subdues most undergrowth of which there is little else to hide in besides behind the trees themselves.

For the best cover, Woods tiles are your best bet.

------------------

"While stands the Collosseum, Rome shall stand.

When falls the Collosseum, Rome shall fall.

And when Rome falls -- the World."

**Byron**

[Matt]

I tend to agree with ThunderDuck here. It would be really really hard to spot a team of 2 men moving around in tall pines at 300 meters if they were even using the slightest bit of caution.

It's not like a loud, crunching, large silhouette tank or a bunch of clanking, trampling men. It's a couple of guys with binos and a radio trying not to be detected and get their heads shot off.

Think of a patrol of men sent out to recointer the area. Would they make it very far if they were detected easily? But in real life it happened all the time and the smaller the patrol the more success they had.

In short, spotters should not be as easly detectable as a squad.

-Matt

[Schugger]

You should also take care of "how" you advance your FOs. If you use the RUN order constantly even when they reach the woods or tall pines tile edge, they're much more proned to be spotted.

Those FO units seem to be prime targets for the AI; as soon as they are identified they attract a great deal of fire.

------------------

Es gibt Tage da verliert man und Tage da gewinnen die anderen.

[ThunderDuck]

Thank you for your advise. I am playing against the AI. I have been using the default setup as well as moving the unit to the colored portion of the tall pines terrain on the big hill. Once the game starts, they do not move, and I have not hidden them. Will have to give the hide command a try. One last question on the terrain tiles. I notice that there is the graphical rendition of the terrain plus a colored area around the graphic that is identified as tall pines, woods, or whatever as well as the graphic. Does the colored area in effect represent the edge of the woods and therefore not as dense as the graphic repesentation or are they both of equal density? I hope that makes sense. Thanks much and cheers.

[Lurker]

It is the reflection from their binoculars...

Potential VoT Spoiler Below

After being the target of too many Ami artillery shells in VoT, I find that if I spot anything (unidentified infantry, sound contacts, etc) in a position that has a very good LoS, I drop some fire on it. If you're lucky enough to eliminate some of the

F.O.'s, then VoT is a whole lot more fun for the Germans.

The only thing that is likely to attract more fire than a potential F.O. is a Flame Thrower team at close range.

-Lurker

[This message has been edited by Lurker (edited 05-31-2000).]

[Guest KwazyDog]

On thing you guys might not know that you should take into consideration is that in CM all HQ units and (I believe) HMG teams are considered to have binocs they are using to spot.

Really, 300m isnt all that far and with a pair of binocs Im sure it would be hard to spot guys out to maybe 600m - 800m with them no problems. The maps you guys are playing on are small in comparason to some that you will see when you get the final. I am playing a game on a map at the moment that is on a map some 2km square, and I can tell you once you get over 1km any troops that you manage to spot will most often be listed as 'Infantry?'

[ThunderDuck]

POTENTIAL VOT SPOILER

Just did a quick first turn with VOT and used the default setup for the American side. Both FO's, the 105 and the 81mm (?) mortor are pretty close together. I tried giving both of the them hide command. Then I gave them a target command. As soon as I did that they were not hiding anymore. When I pushed go, they almost immediately started receiving fire from 5 units. How do you use the FO's if they are seen as soon as they move into a position from which they can see enemy units? Once again I feel that 2 men should be able to hide behind trees to a certain degree at least and not be seen. They fire they were receiving did not appear to be area fire. It was direct at them directly and it was deadly. The german 150 took out the 105 spotter with one shot. Any advise as to how to place the FO's for maximum safety and effectiveness will be appreciated. A general response that would be appropriate for all scenarios will be fine. Once again, thanks.

[Moriarty]

You might also consider "hiding" your FOs in plain sight by mingling them in with an infantry squad.

Lone people wandering around the battleground are easily identifiable as something you want to eliminate now, i.e. FOs, HQs, zooks, schrecks, mortars, MGs, etc.

------------------

We are both men of action. Lies do not become us. — Westley

[Peterk]

> Any advise as to how to place the FO's for > maximum safety and effectiveness will be

> appreciated. A general response that

> would be appropriate for all scenarios

> will be fine. Once again, thanks.

Don't start them in their default locations. Keep them on the back of the hill and move them into position gradually.

By the time they are in position, the AI will probably have multiple things to worry about (fire from the tanks, smoke/shelling from the direct fire mortars) and won't be able to key in on the FO's as much.

I have a feeling that those FO's are really the AI's only good targets on turn 1, so it's wailing on you with everything it's got.

p.

[Iconoclast]

I found the same thing--apparently spotters can't Hide while they are calling in fire. In fact, as soon as you issue the targetting order, they get up from the ground. My way of coping has been to give Jerry plenty of things to shoot at all at once. <g> He's usually too busy shooting at things that are overtly threatening (squads, etc.) to bother the F.O.'s

[ARCHANGEL]

TD,

The first time I played VOT, I shelled the objective hill just above and behind Plomville because even tho on turn one I hadn't seen any enemy activity, I KNEW that it must have great LOS.

The same goes for the hill on which the US FO's hide. You, and presumably the AI, can spot the high ground and take for granted SOMETHING will be up there, FO's, mortars, tanks in a fire support role, HMG's, anything that might impede your progress or ability to fight regardless of which side you are running at the time.

Keep them on the reverse slope until you plan to use them, or use them right away; the 81mm can put out smoke on the most likely German gun positions by turn two.

[This message has been edited by ARCHANGEL (edited 05-31-2000).]

[Jimmy 4 Eyes]

I don't know if it was luck. But when playing against the AI I placed my spotters slightly down the slope and as close the a tree as I could and still keep their LOS. I did most of this setup in in the ground level view screen and the AI never fired on them for the entire game. Oh and I also hid them until I was ready to use them. I don't know if it was the hiding and the units being distracted by other movement or the placement that really helped, but I have found that anytime I leave a unit static at the start I move and place them carefully with the ground level view.

[Lurker]

I just played both sides in VoT to check some spotting questions that I had.

The enemy units never spotted my Forward Observers until they moved. Apparently CM works like real life in that movement attracts the eyes.

So, in an attempt to lengthen the lives of your spotters, try putting them in a good spot (not too good, since the enemy is likely to have those spots on his list of targets) and leaving them there.

You may find that your artillery spotters have a much longer life, and in the end more of your arty falls on enemy targets.

Hope this helps,

-Lurker

[Guest grunto]

-Any advise as to how to place the FO's for maximum safety and effectiveness will be appreciated. A general response that would be appropriate for all scenarios will be fine. -

POSSIBLE VOT SPOILERS IN REPLY

use the grunto technique... put the 105 FOs behind hills or woods, out of los... they can still call in fire and sometimes 105 area is better... it does tend to use a lot of ammo but my attitude in vot is that you have a lot of ammo. Those two 105s calling in shots from hidden positions are still deadly in VOT. You might want to hide them then smoke the 75. When you see a 150 IG, put the 81mm FOs on it. They can also be out of LOS. They will almost always take the gun out. Hold on for a minute for their fire to take effect and kiss the ig goodbye.

It seems like VOT almost allows the ami to 'waste' artillery - at least to the extent that they can probably use out-of-los area fire from their FOs to attack a couple of key german positions and win the battle with the rest of their units. In other scenarios this technique might not be feasible. Just keep in mind that in a pinch the FOs can call in fire from out of LOS.

That's why in VOT a tricky german might consider setting the TRP up in a place such as just behind hill 216 on the west edge of the map and bombard a possible 105 FO hiding there...

in vot i'll put one ami 105 FO behind hill 216 and the other on the sw corner of the map or someplace like that. Sometimes i'll put a .30 cal back in that building in the sw corner in case the germans pop out of the woods and send everyone else to the left in a major 'left hook' manuever.

sometimes you can leave the flamethrowers right where the shermans will appear on turn 9, then load them up and dash into plomville and meet up with your already successful first wave attack...

andy

[Schugger]

ThunderDuck, this is maybe a stupid question: Are you playing the VoT scenario with the Full Fog of War option?

I allways start my games with this option and my FOs positioned on the hill never exposed themselves as the AI never fired upon them.

Just curious

Schugger

------------------

Es gibt Tage da verliert man und Tage da gewinnen die anderen.

[Berlichtingen]

I'm thinking that Schugger has a point. It sounds like you have FOW off.

[Black Sabot]

Question re: tall pines

Are airbursts treated differently when they hit tall pines as opposed to regular woods?

------------------

"I do like to see the arms and legs fly"

[DrD]

You can target arty out of LOS? I never tried that, thought you could only do it with a TRP.

[Mikester]

DrD,

Yes, I believe artillery spotters are the only ones that can fire to an area without direct LOS. I.e. onboard artillery such as mortars and the 150mm gun for the Germans in VoT can't do it (exception is German mortars that are within command control radius of the company HQ in VoT). Obviously, the non-LOS fire is going to be way less accurate. Bottom line is, if you click on any type of artillery unit, issue a targeting order, drag on the map to where you want it to land, and then left click, and you get a yellow/gold target line from firing unit to that point w/ text of "area fire" it is going to fire there. Regardless of whether the artillery unit has direct LOS or not.

Mike D

aka Mikester

[This message has been edited by Mikester (edited 06-01-2000).]

[Guest Scott Clinton]

On map artillary can spot out of line of sight if they are designated as "Set up for indirect fire" in the scenario, like the German 81mm mortar in VoT (check situation report--or whatever it is called).

I think, this represents the unit having accurate maps of the surronding area, ect.

This benefit is lost if the unit moves anytime during the game (I think).

My question is...

If a unit is set up like this do they/can they get extra ammo to represent 'stockpiles' that are lost if the unit moves? This was discussed a long time ago, but I don't know how it turned out.

------------------

Please note: The above is solely the opinion of 'The Grumbling Grognard' and reflects no one else's views but his own.

[Dar]

Thunderduck:

Be sure to "Sneak" or, better yet, "Crawl" into cover when you're advancing your FOs. I normally have my guys "Fast" dash between cover and "Move" through it until they reach a point where they are nearing the enemy or the end of the concealing terrain. Then I have them "Sneak" until they reach about 1/2 tile away from where I want them. Then they crawl into their final spot and hide until I find something shell-worthy.

Have you experimented with LOS into the different types of terrain? Typically, you can't see through one Tall Pines, two Woods, and three Scattered Trees from my experience (looking orthogonally; diagonally reduces that). Once my troops move into terrain that borders on exposing them given those limits, I trade the faster moves for the stealthier moves.

Try using the level "1" LOS setting, too, when plotting your movement. There are a lot of dead-spots, draws, and saddles you can cross unseen if you plot your moves carefully. You can often have guys crawl unseen up a gully in otherwise "flat" territory, or circle around a small crest. I love how CM supports this!

Dar

[DrD]

Mike, Thanks, I didn't know that.

Scott, Mortars can fire out of LOS when under command regardless of whether they've moved or not as long as the HQ has LOS. However, if they move they lose the priveledge of targeting an out of LOS TRP.

I really love the new mortar rules. A couple of 60mm mortars and an HQ with good command radius are VERY effective. Since the HQ isn't actually firing they can stay well-hidden and with the mortars out of LOS the enemy has a tough time deciding where to return fire.

Actually, I guess I just love the WHOLE GAME WHERE IS IT WHERE IS IT ohh sorry...