An almost silly rebuttle to CM's superior AI

[Guest PeterNZ]

Shermans were petrol powered

PeterNZ

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.C O M B A T. .V I S I O N.

* Film From The Front *

[Mark IV]

M4A2 was diesel-powered. Check out dano6's article on sherman development over at CMHQ.

The diesels went to Russia and the UK.

[Guest PeterNZ]

damn

my grog veneer tarnished!

i'll stick to movie =)

PeterNZ

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.C O M B A T. .V I S I O N.

* Film From The Front *

[dalem]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>How many of you Grogs out there thought the original release of SP was the best thing you'd seen since -- oh maybe -- Panzer General?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not me. I hated Steel Panthers. I still play the original Panzer General occasionally for fun but I gave up trying to make sense of SP after the first week and tossed that one into the discard bin.

-dale

[Dalton]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stef:

I think this guy has not played more than 30 sec with CM or is not interested in realistic wargames. I'm astonished by such a reflection. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Guys, I know this is a LONG time ago for many of you, but think about your first game of CM... My first game was a couple weeks ago, and took close to 4 hours - and I got my butt kicked.

Getting used to the 3D terrain - scouting out good LOS positions, places to move unseen, places to ambush opponents, etc is not easy, nor quick, until you are comfortable with the 3D views. Then add the command options, FOs and AFVs and you have a LOT to learn in you first game(s).

IMO, if you pick CM, without having read/heard about it extensively, you are in for a nasty (buy strangely addictive surprise. The CM Crusade is really necessary for CM to be a success. Without people understanding that CM 'is not your fathers war game' it will have trouble finding the interest of a large market due to its completely different user interface.

Cheers,

...Dalton

[MarkEzra]

I'm a long time player of SP. It was the most flexible, fun war game out there. When SSI handed the code to The SP Camo group and later to the Matrix folks I was very pleased. The SPWW@ and SPW@W configuration are "gamers" efforts to improve the game. They deserve our thanks as well as our support. The comments of SOME SP followers regarding CM are just wrong. Most of the SP guys I know can't wait for CM to come out. They see it, as I do, as a completely new direction in wargaming. When Matrix gets SPW@W out I'll put it on the hard drive. SP may be the culmination of hex/turn based gaming. CM is the brave new world. I'll honor the past as I play in the future

[Moon]

Part of the reason why Dalton's observations are true might be because the beta demo (and that's all it is, some people seem to forget it) has been made available with really only the barest information of how to play it. The full game will be accompanied by a large manual, which will also include a tutorial section. That plus many changes which have been inspired by people on this board makes it, IMO, a much more accessible game.

[Fionn]

Well, I've always said that it's quite possible to like many different types of wargames.

I happen to find "major reality flaws" in the Close Combat series and in Steel Panthers. Because of them I find it hard to rate those games highly although I do have some in each series.

However, I don't need to bash either of them to say CM is good and I think that is something everyone here should bear in mind.

CM is good because of what IT IS and NOT because of what others aren't.

It really doesn't matter that the AI in SP is pretty braindead and runs straight for flags. What matters is that the AI in CM is extremely good.

We shouldn't use those things which CM does better to beat other wargames about the head but should merely use THOSE IMPROVEMENTS to highlight why other wargamers we know should d/l the beta and gold demos (when it comes out).

I'm quite convinced that any SP players who can become even slightly au fait with the 3D view will become hooked on CM HOWEVER if they see CM fans attacking SP the two groups will polarise and a whole load of people who might have tried and liked and bought CM won't buy it.

So, simply remember that, as with all thing you don't have to bash the competition to justify why "your" game/country/team etc is good.

CM is good because its good. If an SP fan wants a realistic wargame with good graphics and a good AI then he should try CM. Any proper wargamer should be willing to TRY CM and about the WORST thing we can do to stop them is to attack their current favourite game.

CM sells itself so long as they guys try it so lets just take care to not run around like vandals attacking the current favourite games of all these potential customers.

What you should ALWAYS try to communicate is that " (Insert name of current favourite game here) is a good game BUT CM has better ( choose one of the following based on what the person sees as being sub-par or flawed in their current favourite game:

AI,

Graphics,

Immersion,

Realism,

PBEM features,

Game Mechanics.

Try it out some time ( insert name of person here)."

No need to bash their game since that is, in fact, counter-productive.

[Ron]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dalton:

Guys, I know this is a LONG time ago for many of you, but think about your first game of CM... My first game was a couple weeks ago, and took close to 4 hours - and I got my butt kicked. Getting used to the 3D terrain - scouting out good LOS positions, places to move unseen, places to ambush opponents, etc is not easy, nor quick, until you are comfortable with the 3D views. Then add the command options, FOs and AFVs and you have a LOT to learn in you first game(s). IMO, if you pick CM, without having read/heard about it extensively, you are in for a nasty (buy strangely addictive surprise. The CM Crusade is really necessary for CM to be a success. Without people understanding that CM 'is not your fathers war game' it will have trouble finding the interest of a large market due to its completely different user interface.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

While being fully aware that every gamer's perception is subjective, I wanted to comment that I found the exact opposite of the above to be true. The CM beta demo brought me back to wargaming in a big way largely because it is so easy to get into and play. I find the methods used to play well, ie scouting a good LOS position, moving unseen etc., felt more natural and made more sense than those employed in other wargames I have tried. For me they weren't tedious or time consuming or obtrusive at all. Perhaps because I don't have the background/conditioning from other wargames it was an easier adjustment but from this 'newbies' perspective CM is intuitive and the 'suprise' was wholly pleasant.

Ron

[Dalton]

I may have left an incorrect impression with my last post.

I really like CM!

Enough that my girlfriend hates it.

I spend a lot of time during the game scouting things out. It is just like you are there!

Setting the view to level 1, then following your guys through their actions is amazing!

- Waiting for a tank to roll into your ambush.

- Sprinting across open terrain between buildings or hills, hoping enemy MGs don't get you.

- Sneaking through the trees, trying to get the drop on an enemy squad.

WOW!

...Dalton

[Guest Ol' Blood & Guts]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ron:

I was curious also and went to the SPWAW forum to read the comments but the thread isn't there anymore!

Ron<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, the administrator deleted it right after I posted my rebuttle using quotes to pick apart his ignorance.

[Lee]

Fionn makes a good point. Do *not* run over to the SP forum and start

saying how superior CM is to SP:WaW (whether it is or not is

irrelevant). All that does it tick people off and make them not

want to try CM just because you annoyed them. And it could easily

be considered impolite to come to a forum made for fans of one

particular game and start bashing that game.

If you want to go and help spread the word about CM, fine. Just

say some good things about CM and post an address to CM site.

Answer any questions they may have and let them take it from there.

All this arguing does it anger potential CM fans.

You can catch more flies with honey than vinegar.

[Guest Gunnerdream]

"Yeah, but you catch the most with a dead cat." Woody Harrelson

[fiftymicrolitres]

Give it a break OB&G. You haven't proved nor shown anything least of all some putative superiority in either fun or realism on the part of CM .vs. SP.

5m

[Guest Big Time Software]

I agree that SP bashing isn't really necessary. I will, however, bash closed minded, illinformed, and downright grumpy people that slam CM for emotional reasons. It doesn't matter what their favorite game is, SP, CC, PitS, etc. Closed minds just tick me off, especially when they are (as they most often are) basing their case on irrelevant, subjective, and sometimes totally inaccurate "facts".

Steve

[Mark IV]

In retrospect my earlier post to this thread might be construed, with effort, as SP bashing.

I am chastened.

I spent many, many hours on SPs 1&2 back when CM was just a gleam in Steve and Charles' optics. They were great. They were groundbreaking. They had the best graphics of the time. And, their manual sucked (you see, chastened, but unrepentant).

I prefer CM. It would be foolish to promote CM through slams against other games, and 3D realism may not be for everybody. As a C-Missionary I try to make sure everyone's aware of what this game has to offer, but I don't cruise for arguments with other gamers.

Of course, if I felt someone was misrepresenting "our" game through ignorance or malice, I would feel compelled to set the record straight... in the nicest way, of course.

"Gunner, beehive, troops in the open!"

[Lee]

Agreed. I found his comments irritating and laughably inaccurate.

But it wouldn't be very helpful to have 10 of the board members run

over there and tell him how stupid he is. Better to play it cool

and let CM's undeniable greatness win the day.

I think the vast majority of SP players will love CM, even if it

takes awhile for them to get used to it. No need to beat the fact

that CM RULES into their heads. Even though it does rule.

[Guest Ol' Blood & Guts]

Well, IIRC, (cause the administrator deleted my posts) I didn't just flat out slam SP. I first wrote a message in response to an Japanese person (I think) about him asking if SP was going to have different levels in buildings and I just referred to CM having such and posted the 'texturelane.jpg' from CMHQ the other day and got bombarded by the "close-minded" remarks that Steve has spoken of.

Then I started a "Ever wanted to play a Steel Panther-isk game in 3D?" thread with non-SP-bashing rhetoric and just pointing out CM's features and all, and then I got bombarded again with the same crap. In fact, the first reply is who's quote I used to start this thread.

I never once bashed SP, until the forementioned replies were on the negative side. Then I had to, but as soon as I hit "Submit Reply", the administrator deleted the whole thread.

Steve's right on this one. It's the close-minded people that can't adjust to change that really irk me. I mean I loved the SP series in their day, but just like someone else mentioned here that they never went past SPII, I didn't either. I did try SP:WWII, but since it was DOS-based it was unstable for me.

Also, we all come on here discussing other games such as Panzer Elite, Panzer General, etc. and no one said, "Shut the Hell Up" about it. Well that's what they did over on that board about CM. They didn't want to hear about it "Because it was a SP:W@W board"

Maturity levels shining through, I guess.

That's my story and I'm stickin' to it!

P.S. It's funny though how the Matrix Games Forum just opened up just shortly before the release of their first major project.

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"I am not interested in the names of your fathers...nor of your family's lineage. What I am interested in...is your breaking point!"--Gen. Chang

[This message has been edited by Ol' Blood & Guts (edited 04-05-2000).]

[iggi]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>But it wouldn't be very helpful to have 10 of the board members run

over there and tell him how stupid he is. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Rumble!

Let's go.. pick up anything you can find,,sticks, rocks. Don't forget the matches

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"Don't tickle with the fingers, hit with the fist"

-Heinz Guderian

[Lee]

iggi: Haha.

OBG: I'm not against going to other forums and pointing out how

cool CM is and even defending CM against unjustified attacks.

I was just hoping to avoid a nasty argument brewing up over there

with a SP vs CM flame war. If some of the people on that forum

are going to incite heated exchanges by saying rediculous things

about CM, then it's probably better not to argue the point with

them too much. As that is likely to only cause more grief than

it's worth, especially when the argument is taking place on SP turf.

If it were an open neutral wargame forum it might be worth getting

into it more, but as it is, better to not stir up the SP people

too much. Most of them I'm sure aren't like that particular

individual anyhow.

I realize you didn't start this, that guy is making wild accusations

against CM that are completely wrong. I just didn't want to see

a big argument about it on their own forum. I saw some of the

reactions to what he said on the forum here and could just imagine

all the harsh responses flooding their forum. Hopefully that won't

happen. Remain calm, boys.

Now where did I put that baseball bat...

[Lorak]

Does this mean were not going to start the Van up?

[von shrad]

The van is currently unavailable at this time. Please refer to it as States Exibit #7. It WILL be back! Coming to a sidewalk near you.

'Who owns that van with the peace sign,mag wheels, and 4-on-the floor?'

Seriously, we do have to act with respect towards others opinions. When we speak of this game we represent BTS in a small way, wheather we realise it or not. Lets promote this game to the fullest through well mannered discussions. We will attract alot more people than just bashing their fav. game. I remember not long ago being skeptical about CM. I asked many questions from a well known board member, at a differant games site, and he was kind enough to take the time to explain some things. It was only after that did I check out CM. Because of that, there will be several more sales for BTS........and what does that mean....yes, more fresh blood.

'and thats all I gotta say 'bout that'

[Compassion]

It's easy for us here to talk about other games without worry. This forum is well established and there's even product to play with. This is much less of a "fan" board than a fairly established community (hell, I'm a relative newbie... wasn't even here before the demo was released). The SP forum appears to be in its infancy. Give them time to get settled in before brining different games in.

[iggi]

I reinstalled Steel Panthers. Why not give it another try after playing CM Wow, now I rememered why I dropped it for command and conquer. Boringggg. Zapped of the hard drive for the last time.

[von Lucke]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by iggi:

I reinstalled Steel Panthers. Why not give it another try after playing CM Wow, now I rememered why I dropped it for command and conquer. Boringggg. Zapped of the hard drive for the last time.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Funny, I had the opposite reaction (insert C&C for SP and vice-versa).