Aussie Smith Posted October 13, 2000 Share Posted October 13, 2000 Stefan Excellent pictures on your site mate - I was surprised about the size of the tractor compared to the Pz IV. Steve Excellent post thanks - I would think a Tiger in recoverable order would go for a cool Million then...I'd hate to think how much the Bovington Tiger in running order will be worth? Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest herbjorn Posted October 13, 2000 Share Posted October 13, 2000 A tiger in running order? Does that imply that you can fire the gun, or would that cost extra ;P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victor Semensi Posted October 13, 2000 Share Posted October 13, 2000 I seem to recall a post on the old Tankers forum that a French armor museum has a working, i.e drivable, king tiger. Does anyone know if this is true? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GriffinCheng+ Posted October 13, 2000 Share Posted October 13, 2000 IIRC, I come across a small book by "Janes/Collins" stating that T34/85 was still in service in Angola, a country just north to South Africa. It is said that it was in service in 1980 but I am not sure now. As for "running" panzers, there is a muesum in France, sorry forget the name, which has a Panther A in running condition. It has also a Tiger E too but I am not sure about its condition. They have a series of books called "Armor in Details". I have seen, quite accidentially, in the Discovery Channel, a program called "Extereme Machines" talking about tanks, its developments, operation, future, blah, blah, blah. It is rather dull but one section showed a clip where a Sherman (I think it looked like a M4A3) brought down a woonden 2-stories high house by dashing through the ground floor. (hint, hint). The VO said that it was one of the applications these surplus tanks were employed after WW2. And then, it showed a British collector driving his tank, painted in yellow, around London. I forget about the name of the "tank" (which looks like a SPA to me) but it is said it was in service in the 50's. Griffin. ------------------ "+" is just the beginning. Expect to see "GriffinCheng76", "GriffinCheng(105)" or "GriffinChengA3E8" more should Forum problems occur again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freak Posted October 13, 2000 Share Posted October 13, 2000 Aackk!!! Melted Down!?!? Oh the horror! Why melt them down? I am abit surprised that leftover tanks were melted down. A bit upsetting. Of course I am sure that at the end of the war most allie's wanted to get rid of the german stuff. Where Allied forces at the end of the war sick of german equipment, or were they collecting suviners? (bad spelling there) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest machineman Posted October 13, 2000 Share Posted October 13, 2000 I think the museum in France you are thinking of is in Saumur. http://musee-des-blindes.asso.fr It's all in French, but this is what I gathered of the german equipment there: L'Allemagne nous envie la collection pratiquement complète des chars allemands de la seconde Guerre Mondiale à nos jours : des Panzer II, III, IV, Panther, Jagdpanther, un Tigre royal de 70 tonnes, exemplaire unique restauré, jusqu'aux plus récents, Léopard I et Léopard II sans oublier de très nombreux modèles "bricolés" pendant la guerre. "un Tigre royal de 70 tonnes, exemplaire unique restauré" means working Kingtiger? ------------------ "Environment is everything - The Lion may be king of the jungle, but you airlift him to Antartica, and he's just some Penguins bitch" - Dennis Miller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted October 13, 2000 Share Posted October 13, 2000 Various answers... The post war "Thing" is not the same as a Kübelwagen. There is a place that makes Things into Kübel looking vehicles, but this greatly increases the price of the vehicle to something like $10,000. You can still find Czech OT-810s around. These were post war made HTs from factories that the Germans set up in the Czech Republic to make SPW 251s. The engine is a dirty and noisy Tarta diesel instead of the Maybach (I think) gas engine. The rear doors were different and there was thin top armor. A modified OT-810 to WWII look and feel costs about $30,000 ($18,000 unmodified). Some of the post war Hetzers can still be had, but their price is pretty steep. Not sure how much, but most of these aren't coming out of collections so I guess quite a bit. Samuer (sp?) is the French tank museum. Yes, they have the only running King Tiger in the world A T-55 would go for about the same as a T-34 I would think. $35-45,000 is about standard for a common main battle tank, WWII through 1960s. I very much doubt the $3000 NZ offer was legit. Why melt them down? Not much else to do with them. If you were a country that produced military hardware (like the US and SU), would you sell a country something you found or something that would give your people some jobs? Military equipment is no different than computers in this regard. The other thing to keep in mind is that things like tanks are VERY expensive to store, move, and keep running (not to mention restoring!). That is why they are "cheap". A M-8 armored car or a M5A1 Stuart are often more expensive than a Sherman for that reason. Low demand. Lots and lots of old hardware is still being used out there. In the Balkan war this past decade you could see T-34/85s, M36s, M10s, M18s, and all sorts of WWII small arms (MG42s in particular) being used. 4 M36s and M18s survived the conflict and were reimported back to the US. Funny enough, two of the M18s had Soviet engines in them Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GriffinCheng+ Posted October 13, 2000 Share Posted October 13, 2000 This is a "rip-off" from Amazon.com on "Armor in Details Vol. 1" <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Book Description This book is designed to provide the scale modeler with beautiful color photo-reference of a very popular WWII German subject, in this case the Tiger I tank. Photographed at the SAUMER Tank Museum in France, this is a rare opportunity to study the details of an original Tiger tank. Details covered include the Engine deck, tracks, hatches, zimmerit, roadwheels, armament, and interior details. Each photograph is accompanied by a very descriptive caption. An invaluable resource for the armor modeler, this book will also come in handy for the military enthusiast, as well as the WWII historian. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Vol. 1 is on Tiger E and Vol. 2 is on Panther A. Griffin. ------------------ "+" is just the beginning. Expect to see "GriffinCheng76", "GriffinCheng(105)" or "GriffinChengA3E8" more should Forum problems occur again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stefan Fredriksson Posted October 13, 2000 Share Posted October 13, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Aussie Smith: ...I was surprised about the size of the tractor compared to the Pz IV. ...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> It's huuuuuuuge, 18 tons. The only one in running order in the world, iirc. Concerning T34/85, T34/100: I'm certain they were used in former Yugoslavia during civil war up until -95 or so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest wwb_99 Posted October 13, 2000 Share Posted October 13, 2000 T-34/85s are still in service all over the world. Especially in North Korea, where they make up a significant portion of the North Korean armor (the rest being T-55s of some sort). They were still in service in Bulgaria (I believe) until '89. And as others have noted they made appearances in the Balkan Wars of late. Also quite popular in similar places are Su-100s. These AFVs are cheap, reliable, and comparitively easy to maintain, making them a must have for any technically and financially challenged 3rd world dictator. Also note that in an infantry support role, a T-34/85 is functionally equivalent to a M1A1. And this is the role which most of these ageing beasts play. WWB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graaf Spee Posted October 16, 2000 Share Posted October 16, 2000 Did anyone else bid on this? http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=459670179 /Kristian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest KiwiMike Posted October 16, 2000 Share Posted October 16, 2000 In 1991 I was part of a group looking at importing a T55 to New Zealand - the shelf price was NZ$10000 at the time, "as is, where is" (in Poland) - about US$7000 at the time. Lack of connection of the type to NZ meant people weren't really that interested, and drifted off when the shipping costs started being added up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reuter Posted October 16, 2000 Share Posted October 16, 2000 There is still a Tiger II available in La Gleize, a left over from Kamfgruppe Pfeiffer. It is still in good shape regarding it was used as a target practicing device for all passing American armour and infantry in 1945. Anyone can see the scratches but there is no hole in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Christensen Posted October 16, 2000 Share Posted October 16, 2000 For those with an urge to Seek, Strike, and Destroy... US 18 and M 36 TDs from Yogoslavia : http://www.coldwarremarketing.com/others.asp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrapGame Posted October 16, 2000 Share Posted October 16, 2000 I was living on Long Island at the time the Mattituck museum left. It was an amazing site seeing some of those tanks being loaded on to the transport trucks and getting on to the road. That was a great place. ------------------ CrapGame Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IntelWeenie Posted October 16, 2000 Share Posted October 16, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Big Time Software: Why melt them down? Not much else to do with them. Steve<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I remember seeing an article in a magazine a few years ago (Nat'l Geographic?) about a bunch of surplus M-60 tanks that were cleaned up and dropped in the Gulf of Mexico to form a manmade reef. ------------------ Cats aren't clean, they're covered with cat spit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Commissar Posted October 16, 2000 Author Share Posted October 16, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by IntelWeenie: I remember seeing an article in a magazine a few years ago (Nat'l Geographic?) about a bunch of surplus M-60 tanks that were cleaned up and dropped in the Gulf of Mexico to form a manmade reef. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> LOL, That has to be the most crative way to use a tank I have ever heard of. Good one Intel! And thanks for all the info from everyone else as well! ------------------ "...Every position, every meter of Soviet soil must be defended to the last drop of blood..." - Segment from Order 227 "Not a step back" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Heidman Posted October 16, 2000 Share Posted October 16, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by wwb_99: Also note that in an infantry support role, a T-34/85 is functionally equivalent to a M1A1. And this is the role which most of these ageing beasts play. WWB<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Hell, I would rather have the T-34. It at least as HE rounds for its main gun, unlike the M1. The M1 is a very poor infantry support tank, simply because the US, for some odd reason, has decided that it does not need any HE rounds for its gun. I guess theya re expected to use harsh language when an AT crew opens up on them at a range greater than their .50cal? Jeff Heidman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Claus B Posted October 17, 2000 Share Posted October 17, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Victor Semensi: I seem to recall a post on the old Tankers forum that a French armor museum has a working, i.e drivable, king tiger. Does anyone know if this is true?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> They have that and a number of other runners, including two Panthers. Here's a pic of the Tiger II going through its paces in 1999 ( http://www.mobilixnet.dk/~mob75281/pic/Tiger2.jpg ) Claus B [This message has been edited by Claus B (edited 10-16-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullethead Posted October 17, 2000 Share Posted October 17, 2000 These ain't panzers, but they're still WW2 tanks. I got all this data and photos from Ariel, who thought it would make a good contribution to this thread. The photos are from the Argentine magazine "Defensa", Vol XVII, No. 191 (1994) Here we have some photos of Shermans in Argentine service during the 90s. I understand they were retired shortly after these pictures were taken. Pic 1 Pic 2 Pic 3 All of these tanks seem to have been fairly early production Shermans; note that they all have the original 56^ upper front hull plate that left the drivers' hatches protruding out front. Note also the extra armor scabbed over the thin spots, and that they still were using extra track blocks for additional protection. They also retain VVSS instead of HVSS, although it's the later pattern heavy duty type with the return roller offset behind the center of the bogey assembly. In addition, they have a 1-piece, cast differential cover, but it's the early thin version that was more semi-circular instead of pointed in cross-section. The turret shape indicates they all started with 75mm guns. Most seem to be the final basic M4 versions, which had the cast front plate of the M4A1 pasted onto the welded hull of the M4. In the final configuration pictured here, the tanks had been modified as follows: Gun: French FTR L44-57 105mm, same as in later versions of AMX-13 and Steyr Sk-105 MGs: co-ax MAG with M2HB flex, hull MG eliminated Engine: French Poyaud 8-cyl 450 hp deisel; note aux external fuel tanks on back of turret Tracks: Argentine-made Captions to the pictures translate as follows: 1 (upper): M4 over trailer of Fiat 697 truck 1 (lower): with the very useful bulldozer blade 2: Not a Sherman column from WW2, but Argentine tanks of this type in the recent Mesopotamia I exercise 3. Sherman with the Urdan mineroller system ------------------ -Bullethead In wine there is wisdom, in beer there is strength, in water there is bacteria. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
argie Posted October 17, 2000 Share Posted October 17, 2000 The magazine is from Spain, not Argentine Ariel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
virtualfreak Posted October 18, 2000 Share Posted October 18, 2000 Check out this site! This guy has pics of the major german tanks of late WW2! http:home.epix.net/~hemperly/abtank.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
virtualfreak Posted October 18, 2000 Share Posted October 18, 2000 Check out this site! This guy has pics of the major german tanks of late WW2! http://home.epix.net/~hemperly/abtank.html the link should work this time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mike the bike Posted October 18, 2000 Share Posted October 18, 2000 Doesn't he M1 have a HESH round available? That does the same thing as HE, only it can kill tanks too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Splinty Posted October 18, 2000 Share Posted October 18, 2000 The "book" reason for M1's not having HE rounds is that they're not supposed to operate without Bradley's in support of them. ------------------ Nicht Schiessen!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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