The Commissar Posted October 11, 2000 Share Posted October 11, 2000 I only bring this up because flipping through a book on tanks I purchased recently called "Tank versus Tank" I noticed just how licensed Soviet tanks became after the war ended. Now, considering the Germans had some excellent designs like the KT and the KT2 (which could have been perfected with further work) why did they not sell these tanks to the buyer? Was it because the US/USSR did not want anyone to have access to this sort of monstrosity? Or was it simply because the German tanks were actually inferior to the designs of other countries? Considering how effective the Panther and Tiger tanks proved during the war, why didn't the US or the USSR mass produce them (something both had the capability to do)? Anyway, just a few inquieries. Wanted to see what you guys think. Cheers! ------------------ "...Every position, every meter of Soviet soil must be defended to the last drop of blood..." - Segment from Order 227 "Not a step back" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IntelWeenie Posted October 11, 2000 Share Posted October 11, 2000 I think it had a lot to do with the immense surplusses of equipment the Allies had after the war was over. A lot of the "buyer" countries had no modern equipment anyway, so even castoff Shermans would have been better than nothing. Why pay top dollar when you can get tanks for less than the price of the steel in them? ------------------ Cats aren't clean, they're covered with cat spit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L.Tankersley Posted October 11, 2000 Share Posted October 11, 2000 I think I remember reading (I'll try to dig up the source tonight and post more info) that some wartime Panzers were disarmed and converted into hamster habitats. ------------------ Leland J. Tankersley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M. Bates Posted October 11, 2000 Share Posted October 11, 2000 After the war German pieces of equipment were offered to various European communities, presumably for exhibit, but these were turned down. If you have ever seen the extravagance with which the Germans buitl their concrete fortifications in Normandy for example, you can well understand why the locals did not want more German equipment! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CavScout Posted October 11, 2000 Share Posted October 11, 2000 I would suspect that the core reason was Germany, as a nation, was occupied. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Heidman Posted October 11, 2000 Share Posted October 11, 2000 Who would do the selling? Germany had no political existence for several years after the war, and you can bet the US, USSR, and GB were not about to sell German equipment when they would much rather sell their own. Plus, were would a buyer get spare parts and support for their newly acquired King Tiger? Jeff Heidman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rommel22 Posted October 12, 2000 Share Posted October 12, 2000 Hey Commisar, I have the book too. Read through it. The Germans after the war sold or gave tanks to the middle east countries. In the six day war, both sides had some German armor, some Panters and Tigers over left form WWII. The Panters went against the Tigers, becuase both sides had so much different equipment, Russian, american and German. The Panthers and Tigers were no match for the modern Russian and American tanks. Although the Panthers and Tigers were modified with better targeting scopes (I think) and more armor was fitted on the tanks. ------------------ From the Das Reich book as said by a German soldier "when the Russians reached us, we opened fire, the first wave had no weapons. The second wave didn't either (fire fodder). The 3rd and 4th had weapons and opened fire on us. By this time we were low on ammo, but we drove them back." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest machineman Posted October 12, 2000 Share Posted October 12, 2000 From the 'Achtung Panzer' website, about the Panther: "After the war many French Army tank units were equipped with Panthers (eg. 503rd Tank Battalion in Mourmelon had 50 Panthers in 1947 and 501rd Tank Battalion used Panthers from 1946 to 1950). Other post-war users included Bulgaria (Bulgarian Panthers), Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Romania and Yugoslavia. After the war, modified Panther's 75mm KwK 42 L/70 gun was produced by French as 75mm DEFA and CN75-50 gun. It was used by them in a number of light tanks (eg. AMX 13) and armored cars (eg. EBR 75). Also, Israelis used the gun to upgrade their M50 Super Sherman. In 1947, Sweden received single Panzerbefehlswagen Panther Ausf A from France as a gift, which was then handed over to Germany in 1960/61 and is today on display in the Panzermuseum Munster. In late 1940s, Israeli high command was considering starting production of modified Panther but it was never realized." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Commissar Posted October 12, 2000 Author Share Posted October 12, 2000 Wow, thanks for the wealth of info! I guess the German tanks were used, just didnt make much publicity as the Soviet designs who just about every body used. Thanks again! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fernando Posted October 12, 2000 Share Posted October 12, 2000 I'm not sure but I think some Syrian PzKpfw IVs knocked out in the Goland Heights during the 6-Days War were ex-Spanish ones bought by the Spanish government during WWII. They were discarded after large amounts American surplus tanks were available in the late fifties and the sixties. [This message has been edited by Fernando (edited 10-11-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Andrew Hedges Posted October 12, 2000 Share Posted October 12, 2000 I think my "PzKpfw IV in action" mentions that some IV's were used in the six-day war as dug-in anti-tank guns. I also believe that Switzerland both used, and later licensed and produced Hetzers into the 60's. I would imagine that most German vehicles were not used much beyond WWII because of the relatively small number of undestroyed vehicles and the difficulty of obtaining spare parts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teutonicc Posted October 12, 2000 Share Posted October 12, 2000 The Syrians used some(from France)in 1965 to shell the Isrealis(spelling). The Isrealis knocked them out with their centurions. The Syrians again used the Pzkw IV(aquired from spain) in the six day war in 67. It is said that the last of the Mark IV's was taken out by an Isreali Sherman sporting the French Long 75mm. ------------------ Teutonicc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Death Posted October 12, 2000 Share Posted October 12, 2000 Here´s some info about post-war Finnish usage of German tanks. I found it from Andreas Lärka´s grrreat page, http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/6139/ During the war Finland bougt about 60 StuG´s from Germany. ---clip--- In 1958 about 20 ex-German Panzer III's, one StuG, 10 engines, tracks and other spare-parts were bought from Norway. In 1960 the StuG's (which were stored after war) were taken out of storage and a total of 45 remaining operational StuG's were used for training. The last StuG's were removed from the inventory in 1966. A few still served on as dug in artillery beside strategic air-fields until the 1980's (!) and some were sold to or exchanged with museums in Finland, England and Germany. And quite a lot were used for target practice... ---clip--- Wow, 40 years of "active" duty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted October 12, 2000 Share Posted October 12, 2000 First of all, the Germans didn't "sell" anything. All war materials were passed over to the Allied nation occupying the territory they were found in. So a Panther in München was American property, one in Hamburg British, etc. I assume the same happened in the liberated countries with the stuff that was collected after the war ended. France probably retained much of what was left on its soil. PzIVs were used in the Middle East. Israel even has a couple in a museum. One was recently exported to the US and is in a small museum on Long Island. Last I heard they were trying to undo Syrian modifications. A StuG IIIg was also recently exported to a collector in the US, complete with bullets still in the roadwheel's rubber! Various US WWII vehicles have been coming back "home" as well, like my 1944 M29C Weasel out of Norway. What little German stuff that is still out there goes for BIG BUCKS. It is very rare and very, very expensive. Did I mention expensive? Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freak Posted October 12, 2000 Share Posted October 12, 2000 Hello BTS, I live on Long Island. Could you give me the name of the museum where the PzIV is? Or Location? I of course will never really be able to afford such an item (most likely) but, when you say that "what little German stuff that is still out there...is very rare and very, very expensive", how rare is WWII German equipment? Tanks Specificaly. And if you know, how much would say a Panther or Tiger cost in relatively good shape? One that is drivable? Does one exsist that is drivable? Thanks BTS (Steve) Freak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasd Posted October 12, 2000 Share Posted October 12, 2000 what is the six day war? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stefan Fredriksson Posted October 12, 2000 Share Posted October 12, 2000 Bob Flemming owns a PzIV, which he, as far as I understand, is planning to get in running order. At Beltring I saw that PzIV being towed by a FAMO... http://home.swipnet.se/stefanf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruno Weiss Posted October 12, 2000 Share Posted October 12, 2000 SOLD THEM?!? Hehe, "Yes folks, this is Sixgun Steiner here with yet another hot postwar deal you just can't refuse. This little baby (dealer points to the fender of a Panzer Mark IIIj), was only used by a little old Sturmfurher from Dusseldorf to deliver the morning milk to the orphanage." (Dealer smiles brightly into camera). ------------------ "Wer zuerst schiesst hat mehr von Leben" Moto-(3./JG11 "Graf") Bruno "Stachel" Weiss Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cuchulainn Posted October 12, 2000 Share Posted October 12, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Freak: Hello BTS, I live on Long Island. Could you give me the name of the museum where the PzIV is? Or Location? I of course will never really be able to afford such an item (most likely) but, when you say that "what little German stuff that is still out there...is very rare and very, very expensive", how rare is WWII German equipment? Tanks Specificaly. And if you know, how much would say a Panther or Tiger cost in relatively good shape? One that is drivable? Does one exsist that is drivable? Thanks BTS (Steve) Freak <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Found this on the web: American Armoured Foundation Tank and Ordnance War Memorial Museum Love Lane, Mattituck (516) 588-0033 call for hours Sunday 11-4 $5 adults $4 people under 12 and senior citizens, under 4 free. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingfish Posted October 12, 2000 Share Posted October 12, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by chasd: what is the six day war?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Here you go: http://encarta.msn.com/find/Concise.asp?ti=04A23000 ------------------ Charlie don't surf! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricochet Posted October 12, 2000 Share Posted October 12, 2000 The museum in Mattituck moved to Virginia awhile back. It was excellent. Everyday they would start an AFV up and rumble about the field. Inside a large hanger was all sorts of different ordinance a lot of it hands on. Some very cool diorama’s too. But one day people moved in next door to the museum and started to complain to the town about the MkIV and the rest of the tanks making to much noise. So instead of fighting city hall they packed up and moved to a place that was happy to have them. Much to my disgust. (It was a typical scene of somebody moving in next to an airport then complaining about the planes making to much noise) There was a thread somewhere talking about Tank Museums in the US if you’d like to try a search. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest wwb_99 Posted October 12, 2000 Share Posted October 12, 2000 I believe a company or so fo Tigers ended up in the Spanish army, where they eventually wasted out of service. As noted above the Syrians used Panzer IVs and Stug IIIgs until they got on the Soviet chairty list. Also, a number of Shermans and especially T-34/85s are in use in a variety of 3rd world armies. WWB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted October 12, 2000 Share Posted October 12, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>The museum in Mattituck moved to Virginia awhile back. It was excellent. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Ah... I thought that might be the case. Thanks for the correction. I have never heard about the Spanish having Tigers. I for one doubt this very much. I am pretty sure the Soviets kept some King Tigers around after the war, but they were probably melted down. Price on German stuff? Well... let me put it into perspective for you (prices off the top of my head): Sherman M4A3 - $40-$60k depending on condition T34/85 - $35-$60k depending on condition and state of export paperwork SdKfz 2 (Kettenkraftrad) - about $50k M3 Halftrack - $18k or so (wide range of models and prices!!) T-16 Universal Carrier - $14,000 Various Jeeps from '40s - $3,000-9,000 depending on condition and type Wartime Kübelwagen - $20k-30k range fully restored StuG III G - unrestored and non-running, price 10 years ago was $125,000. Would most likely be double or tripple today. Tiger - there are none known in private hands Panther - there are none known in private hands Jagdtiger - recovered out of Poland (i.e. a rare one-off discovery). I think it went for $500,000 unrestored to a museum. Probably would have been tripple if it went for open bid And look at some weapon's prices... Browning .30 - $8,000 or so MG42 - $18,000 or so ----- A lot of this has to do with supply. There are a LOT more US vehicles around than there are German. Meaning, you can find individual US vehicles that go for big bucks too if they are rare and "special" (M26 Pershing for $145,000 for example), but German stuff is *all* rare. Add to this the "wow" factor of owning a German WWII anything and boom. Price goes WAY up. Add to this the demand for things German... forgetabout it Professional collectors usually have first whack at the rare stuff. They PAY people to go around to find the stuff out there on the market and then to purchase it at whatever the asking price is. This is an over simplification, of course, but it does underscore how impossible it is to get this stuff. As a rule of thumb... the smaller the vehicle, the easier it is to aquire. You can get Kettenkraftrads because they are small, and there are a "many" out there. Almost all of them, however, are post-war made (they were produced until 1946 IIRC). Kübels were also made by the ton, and since they were a practical vehicle post war, many survived. The heavy stuff was, for the most part, melted down for scrap. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest wwb_99 Posted October 12, 2000 Share Posted October 12, 2000 Kubelwagons were also produced after the war as VW 'Things.' Just as a comparitive figure, how much would a T-55 (not the Iraqi rebuilds) go for these days? WWB [This message has been edited by wwb_99 (edited 10-12-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ropey Posted October 12, 2000 Share Posted October 12, 2000 I seem to remember the Otago University Student's Society being quoted NZ$3000 (about US 2c these days ) for a T55 in working condition a few years back. Great for storming the registry after your student fees are increased yet again... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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