JediJobu Posted October 10, 2000 Share Posted October 10, 2000 Ok, I have spent the last hour or so reviewing previous thread about GAMEY tactics, boy there are a lot of them This is the "meat and bones" of what I have found. Gamey: 1. Recon strategies with crews, fast vehicles 2. Setting up ambush point or arty in known reinforcement spots 3. Buying cheap units en-mass 4. Buying unreasonable percentage of units (i.e. 1 platoon and 10 heavy artillery) 5. Rushing cheap vehicles with infantry or bazookas towars armor or guns - when the vehicle is destroyed, the passengers usually kill the target 6. Running around the map with 1/2 a squad left in your force and tehn trying to capture an unoccupied victory flag at the end NOT Gamey: 1. Using "rush" tactics in a meeting engagement 2. Using area fire in suspected spots of enemy location 3. Massing armor in one spot (moving together, etc) 4. Flanking maneuvers around map edge (though I have seen arguments for this beign gamey - most seem to think it is not) 5. Destroying building that infantry could be hiding in systematically Again these are more or less the "biggies" that I have found. Anyone else have others that I'm missing or noted that my info id incorrect? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coralsaw Posted October 10, 2000 Share Posted October 10, 2000 Good selection there. Now there's been a lot of talk on the forum re/ "gamey" tactics. Let me tell you I never use these tactics myself, but in all fairness I would say it's a matter of style. I would consider it "gamey" playing scenarios PBEM for a second time (I prefer double blind), but I would definitely like to do it just to see how I can improve on the particular scenario. Point being, like a kind soul said on the board before, "if you don't like these tactics, stop playing with the people that use them". Good selection of these tactics though... I really think the guy who invented the "rush with loaded APVs" tactic is a darn good gamer!!! Cheers CoralSaw ------------------ The best things in life are sniped at... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ckoharik Posted October 10, 2000 Share Posted October 10, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I really think the guy who invented the "rush with loaded APVs" tactic is a darn good gamer!!!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Or a really bad commander! Would you want to be under his command? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holdit Posted October 11, 2000 Share Posted October 11, 2000 Perhaps contributors who add to this thread would be so kind as help me with a quick straw poll which might help settle an argument elsewhere: Is it cheating to use gamey tactics? Do you consider players who use tactics like the jeep rush to be cheaters? Is it cheating if a player decides not to abide by house rules? Do you always clarify the situation vis a vis house rules with your opponent before the game starts? Do you see a player who prefers to allow the use of gamey tactics as an inferior kind of gamer? Some people seem to be upset by the word "gamey". What other word would you use as an alternative that would not hold any negative connotations? Are house rules a good thing in themselves or a necessary evil? Thanks in advance for any responses. Short answers will do fine. I'm looking for succinct opinions rather than arguments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest *Captain Foobar* Posted October 11, 2000 Share Posted October 11, 2000 No, players that are using gamey tactics are ot cheating. They look at the game as "if it works, I am going to do it, before someone deos it to me.." And thats fine, but people who dont like these unrealistic or ahistorical tactics are completely within their rights to CHOOSE to play like minded players. Its not a big deal really. There's only one gamey player who I refuse to play, and my reason really isn't the gamey tactics, it is a piss-poor, bad sportsmanship attitude that is unrelated to his tactics. Personally, I LOVE playing against people who do these sorts of things, and smacking them down.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lorak Posted October 11, 2000 Share Posted October 11, 2000 Holdit, I'll answer your questions. Personaly I have to say that none of the PBEM games I have going, have used house rules. The people I'm playing just seem to know where to draw the line. If you have a real problem with the way someone did something in a game, ask them about it. After all having fun is what it is all about. Is it cheating to use gamey tactics? Do you consider players who use tactics like the jeep rush to be cheaters? No I don't think it is cheating. I consider it more a case of bad manors. Is it cheating if a player decides not to abide by house rules? Thats just silly. Of course it isn't cheating. House rules are simple. Either the players agree and play, or they don't. Do you always clarify the situation vis a vis house rules with your opponent before the game starts? As I stated above I have not used house rules. I tend to give my new PBEM people the benifit of the doubt. But I also see no problem with agreeing to house rules if my opponent wanted them. Do you see a player who prefers to allow the use of gamey tactics as an inferior kind of gamer? Nope, too each his own. Everyone has a choice as to how they wish to play. Same as everyone has a choice on who they play. Some people seem to be upset by the word "gamey". What other word would you use as an alternative that would not hold any negative connotations? I can not really think of another good word. Since by definition Gamey tactics take advantage of how the game models things. Are house rules a good thing in themselves or a necessary evil? Really depends on how they are used. We even had some house rules back during my SL days. For example maybe you and someone decide you don't want any armor, or no airpower, or no artillery higher than 105's. These are all "house rules" but really just define the parameters of the game you'll be playing. Everything comes down to choices. Nobody is forcing anyone to play by any rules. But you have to realize that no one is forced to play anyone they don't want to also. Lorak ------------------ "Do not wait to strike till the iron is hot; but make it hot by striking."--William Butler Yeats Cesspool Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holdit Posted October 11, 2000 Share Posted October 11, 2000 Lorak and Foobar, Thanks for the feedback: that's the kind of thing I'm looking for. I should stress here that the argument to which I refer isn't in connnection with a game, it's on another forum, where the claim is being made that that people on the BTS forum look down on players who use gamey tactics and consider them to be cheaters. I don't believe that to be the case, but I thought I'd check just on the offchance that I might be wrong. I agree 100% with both of you. Anyone else like to chip in? Anyone who really does think less of free-spirited players? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coralsaw Posted October 11, 2000 Share Posted October 11, 2000 Holdit, I guess there are some people on the forum who look down on players that use "ahistorical" tactics, let alone "gamey" ones... IMO it has to do with the background of each person and the way he thinks about gaming. I'll explain. If a person has spent the last 20 years of his life as an infantry commander, chances are he/she will get a bit upset being faced with "rushing loaded APVs" (sure as hell would not like the man to be my commander ckoharik ). ALso, if a person plays CM for money (a bit extreme, are there any hardcore gamblers out there? ) he would very well be upset with a half squad running around trying to occupy a flag on the last round. I find house rules OK but kinda like stating the obvious. Something like saying "don't cheat" as a rule. On the other hand, if a player sincerely does not know that a tactic he uses is gamey, well, his savvy PBEM opponent should be sportsman enough to educate, rather than punish. You start building a character image of the people you play with after a game or two and you respect them and continue, or respect them and stop playing with them. Regards ------------------ The best things in life are sniped at... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeadams Posted October 11, 2000 Share Posted October 11, 2000 It really isn't a question of cheating or not cheating; it is a question of why you play CM? For those who want to get as close to an historical simulation as possible, then gamey tactics are not appropriate, while for those who simply enjoy the game aspect may find anything that CAN be done is acceptable. For me the bottom line is to find an opponent whose philosophy matches yours, then you will both agree on which tactics are 'allowable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Zaraath Posted October 11, 2000 Share Posted October 11, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JediJobu: Gamey: 1. Recon strategies with crews, fast vehicles 6. Running around the map with 1/2 a squad left in your force and tehn trying to capture an unoccupied victory flag at the end <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Is it considered gamey to use crews to hold captured flags? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chupacabra Posted October 11, 2000 Share Posted October 11, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Zaraath: Is it considered gamey to use crews to hold captured flags? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Use of crews in general is a pretty contentious topic I don't think you'll be able to get a straight answer on this one, honestly. ------------------ Soy super bien, soy super super bien, soy bien bien super bien bien bien super super. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mannheim Tanker Posted October 11, 2000 Share Posted October 11, 2000 Just to add my $.02 to your poll, I'd echo Lorak's sentiments 100%. I've never had a need for house rules, but have just agreed with my opponents beforehand to use only "historical" tactics - and left it at that. I've never had any problems and have enjoyed every PBEM I've played. I think some people get too worked up over being labeled as "gamey"...I don't know of any non-gamey player that has publicly stated that "gamey" = "cheater", but for some reason there are a few people out there that interpret it to mean this. To each his own... ------------------ "Gun damaged are rare on Shermans because they die like red shirts on Star Trek" - Slapdragon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilhammer Posted October 11, 2000 Share Posted October 11, 2000 How about this one: I have destroyed AFVs and other Vehicles with "indirect" HE fire from other tanks. Example, a enemy Tank is spotted just below a rise by a scout, and I direct fire from my MBT that is just short of the AFv on to the Crest. The resulting nearby explosion can kill light armor (killed several HTs in a scenario with a StUH42 once) or immobilize or hurt the crew (I have done this to US TDs). Is that gamey or smart? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JediJobu Posted October 11, 2000 Author Share Posted October 11, 2000 Zaraath, Personally, I use crews how I would think crews would react under the circumstances given to them. i.e. say a tank or vehicle gets hit from a distance and there are no enemies nearby, I would think the crew would want to run towards "friendly lines" when it appears to be safe, so I do that Now say a vehicle is hit and there is a firefight nearby, I would think the crew will try to stay low and out of harms way - indeed they are not infantry men and probably scared ****less, but would try to fight when appropite. I would not use them for "offensive" tactics, unless in dire circumstances -- say there's a couple of beat up squads and next to them a couple of half strenght crews and that building nearby, I might send them all in. Kind of get my thoughts. as for that poll, I've never asked my PBEM opponents if they use gamey tactics or not. so far, i can't say that I've encountered any tactics that I would consider to be gamey. I definetly play my games the way I think I would behave a a commander in a war. Gamey sound like a good term to me. BTW, I read in an earlier thread that some people can tell if there is alteration of PBEM files. How can I look for that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mannheim Tanker Posted October 11, 2000 Share Posted October 11, 2000 Willhammer, I'd say that was smart. It doesn't sound like you're taking advantage of the code... ------------------ "Gun damaged are rare on Shermans because they die like red shirts on Star Trek" - Slapdragon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holdit Posted October 11, 2000 Share Posted October 11, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lorak: No I don't think it is cheating. I consider it more a case of bad manors. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Lorak, Just for the record, what do you mean by bad manners, and in what context? Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holdit Posted October 11, 2000 Share Posted October 11, 2000 ldit <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by coralsaw: Holdit, I find house rules OK but kinda like stating the obvious. Something like saying "don't cheat" as a rule. On the other hand, if a player sincerely does not know that a tactic he uses is gamey, well, his savvy PBEM opponent should be sportsman enough to educate, rather than punish. You start building a character image of the people you play with after a game or two and you respect them and continue, or respect them and stop playing with them. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> For the sake of clarity, does your respect for someone depend on what tactics they prefer? Do you mean that gamey tactics are always cheating, whatever the circumstances? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coralsaw Posted October 11, 2000 Share Posted October 11, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>For the sake of clarity, does your respect for someone depend on what tactics they prefer? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Nope, all people are respectable in principle(isn't that what I said? ) <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Do you mean that gamey tactics are always cheating, whatever the circumstances? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Far from that, as I said it's just a matter of personal taste. Not my cup of tea, unless they make me LOL (like maybe chasing after a half squad at the end of the game)) Take care ------------------ My soldiers are regular, must be the fibre in the musli... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddy Posted October 11, 2000 Share Posted October 11, 2000 Here's my two cents - I think the entire conversation is twaddle - there are no rules in war and you fight within the context of the scenario. If you can get away with running a quick vehicle into enemy territory to spot the enemy then more power to you - I think most will respect those who do things the "historically realistic and conventional way", but there really isn't any set way to do things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CavScout Posted October 11, 2000 Share Posted October 11, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by buddy: Here's my two cents - I think the entire conversation is twaddle - there are no rules in war and you fight within the context of the scenario. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I wonder if the "Geneva Convention" is a 'house rule'... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coralsaw Posted October 11, 2000 Share Posted October 11, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CavScout: I wonder if the "Geneva Convention" is a 'house rule'... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Uh oh! A bit of a controversial issue this one. [soapbox on] We have three things in front of us, discreet and different: - A game (as it should play) - War by the book (as it should be) - War in real life (as it sometimes is) [soapbox off] We probably shouldn't mix those IMO. ------------------ My soldiers are regular, must be the fibre in the musli... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mannheim Tanker Posted October 11, 2000 Share Posted October 11, 2000 Buddy, if you look back to the 500-post gamey recon thread, you'll see that the opposition to gamey tactics has nothing to do with "rules of war". It is all about taking advantage of a limitation in the game (computer) code with the end result being something that can't be replicated in real life. Just trying to head off that argument before it starts another megathread ------------------ "Gun damaged are rare on Shermans because they die like red shirts on Star Trek" - Slapdragon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddy Posted October 11, 2000 Share Posted October 11, 2000 Mannheim Tanker: I guess I didn't get my point across - we are playing a game here and in the game a player can drive a fast vehicle into enemy lines to better spot the enemy positions so it was my point that if a player can do something then a player will do it and whatever it takes to win the game. Gamey? Don't understand the term, really, this IS a game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddy Posted October 11, 2000 Share Posted October 11, 2000 Another point: I do agree with Coralsaw and maybe we are talking about semantics, but my original viewpoint still stands - this is kind of a hoaky topic because it paints a player as this or that regardless of their win/lose record. Joe Blow beat the pants off everyone but used gamey tactics...who cares? Personally I haven't played anyone PBEM-wise so maybe I am not qualified to comment on this...or maybe because of the fact that I haven't played anyone but the computer AI makes me totally qualified to comment on this. dunno... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chupacabra Posted October 11, 2000 Share Posted October 11, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by buddy: Mannheim Tanker: I guess I didn't get my point across - we are playing a game here and in the game a player can drive a fast vehicle into enemy lines to better spot the enemy positions so it was my point that if a player can do something then a player will do it and whatever it takes to win the game. Gamey? Don't understand the term, really, this IS a game.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> With regards to the fast recon thing: this was a loooooong discussion, but basically, the consensus is that scooting fast vehicles (ie the US Jeep) directly into enemy positions without providing an overwatch is gamey because it gives you an unrealistic amount of information. Picture this. Lieutenant Lee says to Corporal Cole "Cole, take your jeep and drive around half a klick forward of our lines until you run into the enemy. We're not gonna provide you with any support, we've got better things to do. Make sure you drive real fast to avoid getting hit, but if you die, don't sweat it, 'cause you and the jeep are a dime a dozen." Now, in real life, Corporal Cole would probably tell Lieutenant Lee where he could stick that jeep, but assuming for the moment that Corporal Cole has a deathwish... Cole's driving around. Now, the jeep's suspension isn't too great, and he's bouncing around a lot, so he can't see too well. All of a sudden, people start shooting at him! By some miracle, he lives long enough and has the presence of mind to get on the radio to Lieutenant Lee. "Cole! Where are you?" "Uh, dunno, we're bouncing around a lot and stuff, and the windshield's cracked, so I can't really see, plus I took a few turns just now to throw off their fire, so I don't reckon I know where I've got to." "Well, what's shooting at you?" "Hell, LT, dunno that either. Like I said, we're goin' pretty fast and it's kinda hard to see. They definitely have...guns... They may be German, repeat, they may be German." "Well shoot, that's a pickle. Can you make it back?" "Dunno, we'll give it a sh......" "Corporal? Corporal?" Static on the line. "Dang." IRL, Lee would only know that Cole went out but didn't come back. But in CM, even if the recon vehicle and its crew get blown to hell, you as the player know where, and generally how, the unit got killed. You may even have an excellent idea of exactly what and where your enemy is. Until CM has relative spotting, the best thing we can do to avoid this is to use recon vehicles in their historical role, ie, with other units providing an overwatch. ------------------ Soy super bien, soy super super bien, soy bien bien super bien bien bien super super. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts