READ, very interesting Stuff!!!!!

[thomasj]

Doh!

Forgot to say that it covers laser range finders also.

[Wittmann]

I know this is an old post, but I've been looking through the archives, and i need to add my 2c worth on the MG42 story

Ian Hogg...noted weapons historian, provided evidence that the US did indeed try to copy the MG42. A protortype was produced, and a 10,000 round endurance test was arranged in front of the assembled Brass.

The copy barked into life, fired about 10 rds and jammed!!

Analysis of the weapon revealed that the draughtsman that produced the plans made an error, that made the recoil assembly 1/4 inch too short. The project was scrapped after that.

[Noba]

BIGGGIE's comment...

____________________________________________

Re: Stealth -

Saying that Stealth technology is originally Russian is not completely accurate. The mathamatical formulas that were eventually used to develop stealth tech. were developed by a Russian scientist (I can't remember his name) in the early 20th century. He published formulas on how to calculate light, sound and radio wave refraction based upon different angles of impact.

____________________________________________

The Russians' name is Pyotr Ufimtsev, chief scientist at the Moscow Institute of Radio Engineering. Apparently he revisited a set of century old set of formulas derived by Scottish physicist James Clerk Maxwell and later refined by a German electromagnetics expert Arnold Johannes Sommerfeld.

These calcs predicted the manner in which a given geometric configuration would reflect electromagnetic radiation. Ufimtsev took this earlier work further. i.e "How to accurately calculate radar cross sections across the surface of the wing and at the edge of the wing and put these two calculations together for an accurate total."

These taken from "Skunk Works" pge19 by Ben R. Rich and Leo Janos.(Warner books my copy)

Due to limited computer processing power, (1975 for the Stealth Fighter) they used flat triangular shapes added together to get a measure of the radar cross section. The B2 was able to be designed with curved surfaces due to greater calculating ability.

[Stoffel]

The Dutch airforce once had an American F15 squadron under its command.

They have been stationed in Soesterberg airbase a long time.

I know that our F-16 pilots "shot"down these guys many times in exercises.

And although our pilots receive less training than they officially need(natostandard) they are among the best of NATO forces.

In fact they performed the best in the latest actions in Bosnia.

So indeed it is the man who flies the aircraft that makes the difference.

As regards the Israeli airforce ,they decimated the Syrians with out an F15 or F16 lost in a few hours in Lebanon in the fightings in 82.

If the F15 is flown by a good pilot than it is invincible.

[CaSCa]

I know these are facts because I saw them happen:

A USN F-14 flew one lap of the 11.5 mile Unlimited Class pylon course at the Reno Air Races at 669 mph.

A USAF F-16 flew the same course at 688 mph.

A rebuilt Soviet MIG-17 at full burner flew the lap at 525 mph and won the Jet Race. The race was to test crowd appeal for future years using the late-stayers on Sunday and was very appealing. Also racing were two more 17's, a Mig-19, and some U.S. plane of the same era whose designation eludes me but it looks a lot like a P-80.

The heavily modified P-51's fly the course at about 470 mph

The stock P-51's fly the course at about 375.

There are more Hawker Sea Furies there every year.

A single man cannot live without a toaster-oven no matter what country invented it.

Actually, the last one is just an opinion.

[This message has been edited by CaSCa (edited 11-11-2000).]

[russellmz]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Joe Shaw:

BTW Rommel, you might be careful who you call a schmuck, (and yes, I know, you didn't actually call him one) the Yiddish term is defined as ... "asshole" I'd been calling people that for years 'till I found out

Joe<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

awww crap, my FPS shooter name is 'A Smuck'

(puposely misspelled to enhance the schmuck image )

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Rommel22:

"Stealth" is actually a Russian technology

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

i guess so, if u consider the original equations regarding radar waves bouncing off plane surfaces were developed by a russian scientist. he showed his research to his government. as he said "they weren't that interested." (from skunk works, a book by a major f-117 designer)

but the actual application was usa all the way. same with calling the atomic bomb a german tech, since einstein developed the equations needed.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>

The SA-80 (standard British assault rifle) will not work anywhere except in a clean-room

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

ummmm, wouldn't soldiers raise hell about this sorta thing? am i missing something?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>You can hide anything from the same equipment with an oldfashioned camouflage net

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

then why were iraqi tanks highlighted like a flare on those cool bombsight camera vids on cnn? hell, you could even see the edges of the camo net!

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>

Stealth aircraft are not undetectable by radar, and are easily visible with the latest and the best

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

it would be a stretch to say 'easily visible'. how would you test it? the shot down f-117 in serbia ain't in the best shape. the us doesn't loan them out to foreign countries either(i'm making an assumption here, hopefully i'm not making an ass out of 'u' and 'mption'). even then u need to upgrade yr entire radar net. most of those nations with the industrial scientific, and economic resources to do this are either our allies or not considered enemies anymore...

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>

The Israeli Air Force recently beat the USAF 40:1 in a combat exercise, and obtain similar results every time.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

does an israli f-15 even have that much ammo? u got around 8? missiles, then a few minutes of 20mm fire.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>

More people died during the rehearsals of D-Day landings than during the operation itself (Omaha Beach excluded), thanks to a disruption by German S-boats

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

are those s-boats or e-boats?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>

Visual range was at least twice that of radar range in 1943

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

fog, night to a far lesser extent(savo island, but also washington vs kagishima[yeah yeah misspelled])

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>

There were about 1000 Indians serving with the German Wehrmacht

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

at least 3 koreans. i may be off on the countries a bit but gist from stephen ambrose is: captured in jap/korean border war,forced to serve in jap army, captured in jap/russian war, served again, capteured on eastern front, forced to serve as ost troops at d-day invasion)

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>

Between 1871 and 1914, numerous countries adopted the Prussian "Pickelhaube" as their standard helmet.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

turned out the german helmut design protected the head better than any other design. the us uses the basic shape in their kelvar helmuts(aka the 'fritz')

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>

In World War One, the German economy was the most efficient in all the war-faring states, up until the American entry into the war, contrary to most conceptions of

popular history.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

probably, but it was one of the worst in wwii. (women were not used till very late in factories, there were 50,000 manservants at end, britain matched them in quantity of tanks, a major gold reserve of germany was taken by the allies because the railroad workers would not move the supply because of their easter? holiday)

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>

On the first day of the Battle of the Somme, the British lost 60 000 men while the Germans lost 8 000. The British rated their strategy as successful nevertheless. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

wwi generals were stupid...VERY stupid...(i know it's a sweeping generalization but damn! charging machine guns? u'd figure after the 100,000th causaulty u'd get the point...)

------------------

"They had their chance- they have not lead!" - GW Bush

"They had mechanical pencils- they have not...lead?" - Jon Stewart on The Daily Show

[This message has been edited by russellmz (edited 11-15-2000).]

[russellmz]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CaSCa:

I know these are facts because I saw them happen:

A USN F-14 flew one lap of the 11.5 mile Unlimited Class pylon course at the Reno Air Races at 669 mph.

A USAF F-16 flew the same course at 688 mph.

A rebuilt Soviet MIG-17 at full burner flew the lap at 525 mph and won the Jet Race. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

A USN F-14 at 669 mph.

A USAF F-16 at 688 mph.

A rebuilt Soviet MIG-17 at 525 mph and won the Jet Race.

?confused?

------------------

"They had their chance- they have not lead!" - GW Bush

"They had mechanical pencils- they have not...lead?" - Jon Stewart on The Daily Show

[CaSCa]

Sorry, I should have stated that the F-14 and F-16 did their laps solo during the air-show segment, while the Migs and company were actually all racing together on Sunday evening after the races were officially over. It was very cool to watch the Stolychnaya Migs light their burners when they realized that the Mig in the lead was not planning to turn his off!

[43ordcoy]

I am interested where you got your facts on the sa80 rommel22? because ten years ago I remember it being used in the gulf war.it is by no means a perfect weapon and had its teething troubles. a lot of you statements seem to be peoples possible views on how things would go in a situation.circumstances often change the way a event runs.

[Wittmann]

The SA80's teething troubles are such that they've been recalled by the Army, and sent to Heckler&Koch for rework ( a British company!!)

I have used the SA 80...you can't miss...It's ****ing accurate....It just needs a full strip every 50 rounds or so :-O

[Guest Andrew Hedges]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Visual range was at least twice that of radar range in 1943 <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As I look out my window, I can see the moon; it is, I believe, 250,000 miles away. I had no idea radar in 1943 could function out to half that distance.

If it were daylight, I think I'd be able to see even farther...

[pzvg]

SA-80's suffer the same problems as early M16's (which BTW, Army legend has it would jam if you said "dirt") It's nothing that a little more development won't cure.

Oh and all, let's not base any argument on the Gulf War, An army not wanting a fight armed with stripped down export models, is not useful for a qualitative measure, and yes the Coalition forces rated them as extremely dangerous, what else are you gonna do when you give briefings on CNN? The Cubans on Grenada weren't rated a threat by Intel, given they were CE's and the numbers,and as usual intel was hosed.

------------------

Pzvg

"Confucious say, it is better to remain silent, and be thought a fool, than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt"

[43ordcoy]

you miss understood what i wrote.there is no comparing just a statement that the sa80 was used out in the gulf a very dirty enviroment.as for stripped down export models for the iraqi's ? did your good self serve there.because what i saw wasn't stripped down export models.

[This message has been edited by 43ordcoy (edited 11-13-2000).]

[This message has been edited by 43ordcoy (edited 11-13-2000).]

[pzvg]

All battlefields are very dirty environments goes with the job.

As for the Gulf, No, I was out by then, but I have seen the equipment used. Roughly speaking, 80% of it was export versions, not that it matters when you're burying tanks in berms anyway. And I'll stand by the not really wanting to fight, An army designed for mobile combat in fixed defenses, an air force that you send out of the battle area after a token effort, a coastal defense navy that never even engaged, what do you call it?

------------------

Pzvg

"Confucious say, it is better to remain silent, and be thought a fool, than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt"

[43ordcoy]

[This message has been edited by 43ordcoy (edited 11-14-2000).]

[43ordcoy]

[Wesy]

Japanese Submarines carried aircraft as a scouting device. Yes they were used for some bombing runs in the Pacific NW, but that was not the reason why the subs carried aircraft. Japanese Naval Doctrine was very focused on the "decisive battle". This decisive battle was always thought to be fought near home waters (much like the Battle of Tsushima during the Russo-Japanese War). Naval doctrine on focused on "outranging" the enemy. Submarine doctrine focused on attriting (Bushism :)the enemy force before reaching the home waters. Japanese fleet boats had incredible operating radiuses and were thought to serve as a picket as well as method of sinking captial ships on their way to the "decisive battle".

Just my .02 cents, but the IDF are much like the Japanese forces (specifcally air units) at the outset of the war. Japanese Pilots were probably second to none at the outset of the war, but their forces were designed to fight a war of short duration. As the war continued it was very difficult for the Japanese to replace those veteran pilots. The Americans had a HUGE training program, the industrial infrastructure to build very large amounts of planes etc. If Israel is forced to fight a prolonged full intesity conflict it too would have many of the same issues that affected Japan.

[Grisha]

I read somewhere of this method devised by the Soviets to defeat AWACS & its escorts:

12 jet fighters fly very low, hedge hopping, until they are right below the AWACS. Once there, they pitch-up, straight up, launching a total of 24 missiles and both AWACS and escorts.

[Beltfed]

Pardon the interruption here but this is addressed to the "Schmuck" part of this august thread.

Just a headsup. Schmuck is actually a lot nastier yiddish phrase than described. Originally it was pronounced as schmeck and changed over the years. It actually is the part of the male genitalia discarded after a circumcision. Yech

BTW I've read somewhere that the SA80 is having considerable teething problems. Fragile and hard to clean to boot. In addition there's a tale I read about a sudden rise in the number of suicides in the British Army. Soldiers were found holding their weapons under their chin seemingly having shot through the chin to kill themselves. It was found however that the shorter length of the bullpup configuration led troops to hold it under their chin during manuevers without being aware of it and then the SA80 would accidently discharge and shoot the poor trooper in the jaw and into the head. Now this was a while back and I cannot remember the exact article or source. Does anyone recall this happening?

[This message has been edited by Beltfed (edited 11-14-2000).]

[Brian Rock]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>As I look out my window, I can see the moon; it is, I believe, 250,000 miles away. I had no idea radar in 1943 could function out to half that distance.

If it were daylight, I think I'd be able to see even farther...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Probably not. Did you notice those little blinking things called "stars"?

It's amazing how much discussion has been prompted by a rather fluffy thread. Is the cesspool full?

[Major Tom]

Just did a research paper on Bosnia, and the British SA 80's were HATED. Many older Assault rifles were on hand, and were eagerly exchanged for the cruddy SA 80. The reasoning for not scrapping the entire weapon is solely based on economics. The British Army bought a wack load of them, so, they are going to have to use them.

The Japanese I-400 class Cruiser submarine was equipped with 3 Floatplanes in a submersable hanger deck. Their aircraft were armed, so as to attack the Panama Canal (a valid IJN proposal).