READ, very interesting Stuff!!!!!

[Guest Rommel22]

"Stealth" is actually a Russian technology

The first prototypes of infra-red guided ATGMs (Anti-Tank Guided Missile) were built by the Germans at the end of World War 2

SAM (Surface-to-Air Missile) batteries were being deployed by Germany at the end of WW2

Air-launched anti-ship missiles were already in German service in 1943. The Allies soon learned to jam them

The SA-80 (standard British assault rifle) will not work anywhere except in a clean-room

You can shoot down an AH-64 Apache with an AK-47

The best mine in the world is Serbian (if indeed something that blows up as soon as something touches it can be called 'good', let alone 'best')

In the 1960s, the German Heer tested a prototype tank that had two fixed 120mm guns and looked crazy. The Australians had a similar tank in the 1940s, only with

two 25pdr guns, and the Americans had a vehicle with six recoilless rifles that was used in Vietnam.

America didn't manage to copy the MG42, however much they tried. The result was the M60. The MG42 and the MG3 (current version in service with the

Bundeswehr) are still the best machine guns around.

The 120mm mortar is a Russian invention

The assault rifle is a German one

A piece of foil in the shape of a tank is all you need to fool the most modern sighting equipment

You can hide anything from the same equipment with an oldfashioned camouflage net

Stealth aircraft are not undetectable by radar, and are easily visible with the latest and the best

The Israeli Air Force recently beat the USAF 40:1 in a combat exercise, and obtain similar results every time.

The Luftwaffe MiG-29s very recently also beat the USAF

The most modern version of the F-15 has a chance of 30% to survive an encounter with a Russian Su-27 (not 37 - it would have no chance at all there)

It has been suggested to scrap the F-22 project and buy Russian Su-35s instead

The T-72 is an all-round better tank than the T-80

The KGB was directly involved in the liberalization of the Soviet Union and it's final dissolution

More people died during the rehearsals of D-Day landings than during the operation itself (Omaha Beach excluded), thanks to a disruption by German S-boats

For the most of 1942, no messages encoded by Engima and sent to North Atlantic U-boats were decoded by the Allies

Visual range was at least twice that of radar range in 1943

There were about 1000 Indians serving with the German Wehrmacht

During World War Two, Gibraltar was attacked by planes three times. Twice by the Italians and once - by the French.

In WW2, the Japanese built a submarine aircraft carrier, which was alledgedly supposed to attack the Panama Canal.

The Japanese 'Kamikaze' style combat was not restricted only to the infamous 'Kamikaze fighters'. On the mainland, there were units of soldiers who got explosives

strapped around their body and who then threw themelves on enemy tanks and blew themselves up. At the end of the war, the Japanese battleship Yamato was

given only enough fuel to reach the Americans, not enough to return.

The Soviet Army trained special anti-tank dog units. They were trained to get food from underneath tractors and tanks, and used in 1941, first just before the battle

of Brijansk on the 30th September. They were given a saddle filled with explosives and a mechanical fuse. However their use was soon given up as they tended to

run underneath Russian tanks and detonate just as much as under German tanks.

During the campaign against Sicily, a British paratrooper regiment and a German paratrooper regiment landed in the same spot at the same time! A heavy fog was

present during the landings, confusing the troops of both sides. While attempting to rendezvous with their units there were several examples of German and British

soldiers banding together in search, the fog being so heavy that they didn't know who they were with until they tried speaking to each other! (submitted by Sleighr)

The Soviet Union was the first country to regularly train paratroopers. Only at first, they had no parachutes. They jumped off from low and slow-flying planes and

were supposed to land in snowdrifts, lakes and anything else that might cushion their fall.

During one Christmas in WW1, fraternization between the German and Allied forces happened all along the western Front. In the Marne, soldiers from both sides

engaged in a soccer game under the wager that whichever side lost would leave the battlefield. The Germans won, and the Allied troops were actually in the process

of leaving before being stopped by their commanders who had luckily returned early from their Christmas furloughs! (submitted by Sleighr)

There is another story according to which Russian soldiers on the Eastern Front in WW1 frequently came over to the German lines at night to play cards.

Japanese units who had not known the war was over were discovered on uncharted Pacific islands up to 1975. (submitted by Sleighr)

In 1943 (I think, I'll look this up again), there was an armed invasion of North America by the German Wehrmacht. The landing forces penetrated a few hundred

metres, set up a fully automated weather station and left again.

In 1942, part of the German Brandenburg regiment dressed up as Russian NKVD troops and drove straight into the Russian town of Maikop (northeast of the Black

Sea). They told the Russian commander to evacuate the city at once, which he did. The regular German army moved in without a shot fired.

On September 13th 1941, Belgrade was taken by SS-Hauptsturmführer Fitz Klingenberg with 10 soldiers of the Waffen-SS.

In 1945, Germany had night vision devices that (from a qualitative point of view) were not available to Allied armies until the 1960s. BTW - have you ever used a

night vision device? I have, it's fun!!

Between 1871 and 1914, numerous countries adopted the Prussian "Pickelhaube" as their standard helmet.

In the 1990s, it was decreed that all symbols, brand-marks and stamps of the Third Reich on weapons in service with the Bundeswehr were to be removed. The

astonishing things are that this took 50 years to be realised while everything else in Germany was rigourously 'de-nazi-ed' and that 50-year-old weapons are still in

service with the German Heer.

The helicopter was first used widely as a troop transport during the British conflict in Malaya. (submitted by Sleighr)

The flamethrower was first used by the Germans during the battle of Hooge Crater in 1916. (submitted by Sleighr)

During World War Two, Penang in Malaysia was a German U-Boat base

In World War One, the German economy was the most efficient in all the war-faring states, up until the American entry into the war, contrary to most conceptions of

popular history.

In World War One, Germany pioneered or invented excellent trench-line defences, bullets with steel cores, burning projectiles for use against balloons, poison gas,

flame-throwers, mine-throwers and steel helmets.

On the first day of the Battle of the Somme, the British lost 60 000 men while the Germans lost 8 000. The British rated their strategy as successful nevertheless.

[BFCElvis]

Steve...Charles....Somebody get a copy of the game in this guys hands STAT.

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"To conquer death you only have to die" JC

[V B]

This is news that you would find in the Weekly World News. I for one know that USAF instructors trained the Israeli crews to train their pilots. I also know that joint exercises have not been done on a large scale. The survivability rate of that f15 is beyond off. Half of the things you mentioned you can find in propaganda mags. You can shoot down just about any helo with a AK-47 due to the amount of critical areas every helo has. (Even a mi-24E with the thick armor). Some of that on there is true. Germans did start development of prototypes ATGMs. ASMs have been around since WW1, they are called rockets. In WW2 they packed a rockets with tons of explosives and it would skip across the water like a sea shell. Of course this 15% effective and never saw wide use (it would detonate as soon as it hit the water 90% of the time). Anti Stealth radar is not in wide use yet and only a few countries have started development on the system itself (it is not very effective as of yet). Russian Su-35 is a shoot and scoot version of the Su-27. The drag and wing area of the limits the manuverability compared to the agile F-22. (Still a Su-27 is Fore control fins and a larger wing span). The sub aircraft carrier did not exist. It was USN myth. Wars have included explosive soldiers with explosives strapped on them since 1400's around that period. Maikop was a war zone for many battles between Soviet and german. Belgrade at the time during WW2 was under attack by rebel soldiers (IRA equivaliant) and Germany did infact have communication with these soldiers but Belgrade was never taken by any German soldiers. Just thought I would include some of my past education with some of these prop. myths.

[Compassion]

Bah... You are letting facts get in the way of a good story.

[Doug Beman]

While serving in North Africa, Hans von Luck's recon unit struck up a gentelman's agreement with British troops operating in the same area. Once the sun set, a truce was declared so the men could rest, repair, and try to relax. German and British troops would sometimes communicate by radio, and several prisoner swaps were arranged, mainly involving medical personnel.

DjB

[Doug Beman]

The WW2 anti-ship missiles he refers to scored their greatest success in sinking the Italian battleship Roma as the vessel steamed to internment after Italy surrendered to the Allies.

DjB

[Guest Rommel22]

Hey VB,

All that stuff is facts. Even if some of the things is somewhat true, you have to admit, pretty good stuff. Most people don't know all this. You sound offended by these facts. The Isrealy Air Force and military is one of the best trained in the world, better trained that the U.S military. Their Air Force I would consider best trained in the world.

[Guest Big Time Software]

Well, I can't speak to many of the post war "facts", but most of the WWII ones check out as is. Some are, however, overstated (like the German missles and IR). Also, I was watching a show last night on helicopters and they credited the Germans with having the first helicopters in service and the first "cargo" helicopter (complete with wartime footage supplying Gebirgsjaegers!).

That F15 statistic does seem pretty laughable when one looks at the Gulf War success rates

Steve

[Kraut]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Big Time Software:

That F15 statistic does seem pretty laughable when one looks at the Gulf War success rates

Steve<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's the man, not the machine!

My father always told me nice little stories of german F4F's beating the crap out of american hot-shot pilots in their F-15's, because the american pilots would make stupid mistakes and were generally too cocky

I guess it's better to make the mistakes during training and not in war. Just wonder if those pilots learned their little lessons ?

MK

[Phandaal]

40:1??? If that is true the U.S. air force would be scraped and the U.S. would just hire the Israelis to be their Air Force. Besides if that is true, did they pit the elite training squadron of Israel against the Nebraskan Air National Guard?

Anyway, my friend was telling be about some gun footage from an Israeli/Syrian engagement. The Syrian migs were piloted by Russians. The Russian Mig was destroyed by a burst that impacted the cockpit. Ouch!

From was I understand, the Israeli air force was inefective against the Egyptians, until the Egyptian armor outpaced their Land to Air Missiles systems.

Phandaal.

[Marnix]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Rommel22:

"Stealth" is actually a Russian technology

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Maskirova is the art of deception, building decoys and mockups, which the Russians excelled at. The Germans gave it a try too:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>

Another enemy decoy, built in occupied Holland, led to a tale that has been told and retold ever since by veteran Allied pilots. The German "airfield", constructed with meticulous care, was made almost entirely of wood.

There were wooden hangars, oil tanks, gun emplacements, trucks, and aircraft.

The day finally came when the decoy was finished, down to the last wooden plank. And early the following morning, a lone RAF plane crossed the Channel, came in low, circled the field once, and dropped a large wooden bomb.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I found this on the web, it's one of the oldest example of net-lore. Allegedly excerpted from "Masquerade: The Amazing Camouflage Deceptions of World War II", Seymour Reit (Signet, 1980). I won't begin to argue that this is true, but it makes an entertaining story nonetheless

Marnix.

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"A tank is an iron box containing courage." -- Heinz Guderian

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by V B:

The sub aircraft carrier did not exist. It was USN myth.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Some Japanese subs had spotter planes on board, in a hangar behind the sail. Some of these planes flew missions over the mainland US, dropping fire-bombs into the forests on the west coast, trying to create economic damage there. Japanese submarines where very large, had great long-range torpedoes and generally suffered from being used with a faulty doctrine, i.e. that there was no honour in sinking freighters. They were also wasted in resupply missions to beleaguered garrisons, e.g. on Guadalcanal. So maybe the USN might have mistaken the ones with spotter planes as aircraft carriers?

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Andreas

The powers of accurate percetion are often called cynicism by those who do not possess them. (forgot who said it)

[RMC]

Interesting if somewhat controversial stuff.

I think the 40:1 ratio mentioned for Israelis vs the US might be a little off but I would not discount the notion that the israelis are better. Attrition in the USAF is high. The Air guard is notoriously better than the active force because it has more experienced pilots. The Air Guard lets the pilots fly planes and not desks.

This is the first I've seen of someone challenging the accepted action of Fritz Klingenberg and his 10 men who infiltrated into Belgrade and got the mayor to surrender.

[Guest aka PanzerLeader]

Rommel, I'm curious, where did you get all that stuff?? A book? A website? Your own memory? Some of the facts there are quite amazing...

[Blackhorse]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by V B:

Belgrade at the time during WW2 was under attack by rebel soldiers (IRA equivaliant) and Germany did infact have communication with these soldiers but Belgrade was never taken by any German soldiers. Just thought I would include some of my past education with some of these prop. myths. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmmm. This is interesting. The whole basis for Fritz Klingenberg winning his Knight's Cross was his capturing Belgrade with just a handful of men from his motorcycle troop. Actually, it was more like convincing the mayor to turn over the town peacefully.

Keys here being handful of men, and peacefully. Sure, no combat may have occured, but at some point, Belgrade submitted to the Axis. This is where Klingenberg comes in. He got the town without any combat between German or Yugoslavian forces.

It was a very audacious move on his part and is still regarded as one of the better cavalry actions of the war.

[Owen]

I've got another interesting fact, more British troops were killed by the Americans then by the Iraqis. Reminds me of an old joke my Grandad used to tell me.- When the Germans bombed the British, the British would duck. When the British bombed the Germans the Germans would duck, When Americans dropped their bombs everyone would duck.

[This message has been edited by Owen (edited 06-04-2000).]

[Manx]

On 'friendly fire'......Battle Of The Bulge - At 3:26 PM on December 23rd, the "American Luftwaffe" carried out another bombing run. Six B-26s from the 322nd Bombardment Group, a unit of the Ninth Air Force, were nearing their secondary target. Despite the crystalline clarity of the day, the flight leader had somehow failed to locate their primary target, the town of Zulpich, Germany. After consulting his maps, though, he decided that he was close to Lammersum, another German town that was also a legitimate target. He decided to proceed with the bomb run on Lammersum.

From 12,000 feet, the six bombers dropped a total of 98 250-pound bombs, using their top-secret Norden bombsights for precise targeting. Twelve tons of high explosives whistled down and pulverized the small town. Another successful mission accomplished, the B-26s banked and returned to their base in England. Below, in Malmedy, Belgium, the survivors of their attack, Belgian civilians and GIs from the 30th Infantry Division, screamed futile imprecations at the departing bombers. 37 Americans and scores of Belgians died in the attack.

General Hobbs, commanding the 30th Infantry Division, telephoned an Air Force general to berate him for yet another fatal screwup. This was not the first time that the Ninth Air Force had bombed American ground forces. It wasn't even the first time that they'd bombed the 30th Infantry Division. The Air Force general apologized and promised that it wouldn't happen again. But his superiors later denied that any error had occurred. And over the next five days, there were four more mistaken bombings.

[This message has been edited by Manx (edited 06-04-2000).]

[Guest Mirage2k]

RE: The Sub Aircraft Carrier

This is true...I remember watching a show on the History Channel about it. Apparently the Japanese Navy had designed a prototype capable of launching two(?) aircraft. I believe they wanted a few of these ships to take out the Panama Canal...I'm not really sure why (can't remember!). Perhaps to slow down the transfer of U.S. troops from the European to Pacific theater? But of course, that never happened anyway....

Interesting stuff.

-Andrew

[Mannheim Tanker]

While a lot of these "facts" are probably accurate, I can personally refute the claim that a camo net can foil modern AFV sights. I routinely saw throught camo nets in Europe using the M1A1's TIS (Thermal sights). Unless you have some sort of heat generator system (The US has decoys that do this), you can't fool the TIS NO HEAT signature would mean that the tank has been completely shut down and has been out of the sun for some time, but you can usually still see crew members around it (eg loader's or TC's head poking out) If the tank is really cool, it's likely that it's not combat ready (you still need to crank the engines up periodically to charge the batteries), and besides, a turret usually traverses more slowly on batteries than when powered by the engine (the hydraulic pump recharges the system much more slowly on batteries).

[Guest Mirage2k]

RE: The Aircraft "facts"

An F-15E has a 30% chance against an Su-27? What? Key FACTS: the F-15 has better radar (the US has always had better detection systems than the USSR), better top speed, better C&C (AWACS support), better pilots, and a much better medium-range missile (AIM-120 AMRAAM). I'd say that before the US adopted the AMRAAM, the F-15 would have had a 60% chance. Thank god we finally got a replacement for the Sparrow...

The Stealth aircraft fact is probably true (even though It got cut off for some reason). NOTHING is undetectable, even an Ohio SSBN. The fact is, the F-117 Nighthawk is basically a 1970s design. I've heard stories about them being detected by allied radar during the Gulf War. The B-2, of course, is much better (newer design).

About the IAF being better than the U.S. military...well, l don't know. If we parked a couple Nimitz carriers in the Med and started a full-scale operation against the IAF, I don't think they'd last long. Numbers certainly make a difference, and while the IAF may be well-trained (they have to be, after all), the US is pretty damn good, and we've got the edge in C&C and flexibility. Our bomber forces are undoubtedly better (I'm not even sure...does the IAF have any heavy bombers to speak of?).

About the Americans not being able to copy the MG42, I'm not sure that they even tried...from what I remember, the M60 (and a lot of other modern machine guns) are loosely based on German designs, but could not be called direct copies or even direct descendants.

[Joe Shaw]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>All that stuff is facts. Even if some of the things is somewhat true, you have to admit, pretty good stuff. Most people don't know all this. You sound offended by these facts. The Isrealy Air Force and military is one of the best trained in the world, better trained that the U.S military. Their Air Force I would consider best trained in the world.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

{sigh} Rommel, merely stating that something is a "fact" doesn't make it so. Even evidence that something is a "fact" isn't definitive, because evidence is dependent upon who presents it and what other evidence is taken into account. While a lot of your stuff is interesting (although the WW2 stuff is fairly well known, if exagerrated), much of it is based upon hearsay and rumor. Provide some authorities who's data can be checked or you'll continue to have people think you're making it up. BTW, I agree that the IAF is very good, but let's be reasonable ... 40:1 win ratios? Please.

Joe

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"I don't want them brave, I want them dead!"

Thomas J. (Stonewall) Jackson

[Formerly Babra]

The Japanese J1M, J2, J3, A1, A2, B1, B2 & B3 Classes of submarine were all constructed with a hanger containing one float plane. The AM Class Submarines had two planes. A total of 39 submarines of all these classes were completed.

The STO Class, as designed, carried three aircraft and were the largest subs of their day. The design was based on a proposal by Yamamoto for a sub-launched bombing raid on Panama. Two were completed, a third was converted to a submarine tanker, and twelve more were cancelled or never completed.

EDIT: I don't know about 40:1, but there's a reason pilots from less militarily advanced nations tend to outperform their Ami allies in maneuvers. They get a hell of a lot more flying time -- often dangerously more -- due to an insufficiency of military resources. Where America has three or four men to do a job, these smaller (numerically) nations have to send one man to three or four times as much. The number of combat aircraft in the Canadian Armed Forces is laughably small, but the Canada is a big place and the Arctic frontier needs to be patrolled. The end result is that Canadian pilots get more air-time.

Israel, being in a state of war with Syria for nigh on these past three or four decades, obviously has its own unique conditions.

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When I die I want to go peacefully, like my grandfather, in his sleep -- not screaming, like the passengers in his car

[This message has been edited by Formerly Babra (edited 06-04-2000).]

[Guest Rommel22]

Hey

Well, the Isreali Air Force is that good.

Someone said (I forgot who) "The Beast trained military is the one that is in combat the most." Well look at the Isreali Air Force they had fought a number of times.

Oh and someone mentioned the succes rate in the gulf, hahaha. That's laughable, the U.S could of used old F-105's and still won. The iraqis didn't even try to intercept the u.s bombers, and their radar systme is not all that great. Oh, the U.S did try to copy the mg42, there was an episode on the history channel once about this.

There is that one funny fact, the Japenese who didn't know the war was over. haha

What's also funny is, when teachers at school tell you that the Germans only recruited Blond, blue eyed men. There were divisions with muslim, indian, French, Norweigen, South African troops. I am sure most of you here know that already.

These facts are from http://www.fortunecity.co.uk/underworld/kick/495/index.htm

[Guest Big Time Software]

You have quoted two different types of "facts". Some are qunatitative, and those are hard to argue against. Things like x did y first, or on x day z did such. They still can be challenged because NOTHING is beyond that. However, as I said, most of what you quoted does appear to be correct.

The other type of "fact" you quoted are quantitative assessments of something that may or may not be facts themselves. Unless these "facts" are given context and supporting evidence, they are generally useless. It is like me saying "Fact: my dad can beat the crap out of your dad". What is the context and evidence for to support this? It might be true, but then again I might be factoring in the fact that my dad has a handgun Without context who would know?

Numbers and assessments can be twisted in all sorts of way. Quick example, listen to a political debate. More often than not BOTH sides of the debate will use the same "facts" and come up with totally opposite conclusions. So this 40:1 stuff is NOT a "fact" but rather an interpretation of some sort of study. Don't confuse the two.

In short, if you believe everything you read because someone tells you it is a "fact", you have a lot to learn

Steve

[This message has been edited by Big Time Software (edited 06-04-2000).]

[jgdpzr]

I think the statement that the US tried to copy the MG42 is misleading. While they did emulate several pieces (especially the feedplate), they purposefully designed the weapon to have a significantly lower rate of fire with mobility being of greater concern. Yes, the US learned much from the weapon, but they never tried to field a true copy of it.