Terence Posted December 15, 2000 Share Posted December 15, 2000 one word: Ostwind. HOLY CRAP!!!. This thing is like a science fiction weapon that turns infantry into terrified little pudding-men. I had 4 (four) FOUR of them in one sencario which has two companies of german Fallsch .. Falash... Falxchrim... Paratroops attacking a town with some american troops in defense. I just drove them down the main street with my troops running from cover to cover on either side and the Ostwinds turned everything to cheese. It was amazing to behold. Of course, it was against the AI, but still, even regular player must have trouble facing these without a lot of tanks and guns to nail them. Anyone else used these things? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vergeltungswaffe Posted December 15, 2000 Share Posted December 15, 2000 Its amazing what an explosive shell, like a 20mm or 37mm will do to the human body. In fact, the Geneva convention forbade using these automatic anti-aircraft guns on infantry, but, those kind of rules are, obviously, pretty hard to enforce. Like napalm now being internationally illegal. Its okay to shoot people, but not burn 'em. Anyway, Ostwinds and Wirbelwinds are real killers when there are no allied tanks to make their lives hard. I once had a truck mounted 37mm deter and kill/wound most of two platoons of attacking Americans. I thought my defenders were history till that thing opened up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terence Posted December 15, 2000 Author Share Posted December 15, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Vergeltungswaffe: Its amazing what an explosive shell, like a 20mm or 37mm will do to the human body. ... I once had a truck mounted 37mm deter and kill/wound most of two platoons of attacking Americans. I thought my defenders were history till that thing opened up.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Im imagining a reverse slope defense using these things.. its not pretty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jshandorf Posted December 15, 2000 Share Posted December 15, 2000 Begin open topped these vehicles are EXTREMELY susceptible to artillery so watch it. Jeff ------------------ I once killed a six pack just to watch it die. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terence Posted December 15, 2000 Author Share Posted December 15, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jshandorf: Begin open topped these vehicles are EXTREMELY susceptible to artillery so watch it. Jeff <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> yeah, I considered that. In this scenario, however, the US side does't seem to have any. Nyah ha ha ha ha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chupacabra Posted December 15, 2000 Share Posted December 15, 2000 Fallschirmjäger ------------------ Grand Poobah of the fresh fire of Heh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terence Posted December 15, 2000 Author Share Posted December 15, 2000 yeah, that's what I said. what does it mean anyway? "Jumping-out-of- airplanes-hunter?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chupacabra Posted December 15, 2000 Share Posted December 15, 2000 Ein Fallschirm = a parachute, so literally, parachute hunter. ------------------ Grand Poobah of the fresh fire of Heh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forever Babra Posted December 15, 2000 Share Posted December 15, 2000 I tried parachute hunting, but I ruined my eyes staring at the sun. Season's too short anyway... ------------------ Scarred on a hundred fields before Naked and starved and travel-sore Each man a tiger hunted; They stood at bay as brave as Huns The last of the Old South's splendid sons Flanked by ten thousand shotted guns And by ten thousand fronted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chupacabra Posted December 15, 2000 Share Posted December 15, 2000 Well, WizardWorks should be releasing Parachute Hunter II in the next few weeks. Stalk the fearsome parachute armed with one of three accurately modelled weapons and using hunters tricks like parachute calls and parachute scent! ------------------ Grand Poobah of the fresh fire of Heh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pathfinder Posted December 15, 2000 Share Posted December 15, 2000 here chute, here chute... BANG! ow! ah said chute not shoot! dang it... mumble.... must be a spill chukker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skott Karlsson Posted December 15, 2000 Share Posted December 15, 2000 Another good anti-aircraft gun the Germans converted to other uses was the 88 mm gun. They discovered it could punch through almost any armor the Russians could throw at them. Also played havoc on the western Allied forces too. ~Skott~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pedro Posted December 15, 2000 Share Posted December 15, 2000 Why don't the US get the M16 or the M19 in CM? The M16 was the quad mounted .50's on an M3 1/2 track and the M19 a twin mounted 40mm Bofors on M24, I believe. It seems the Germans get all matter of AA weaponary to chew up GI's but the Americans get nill. Pedro ------------------ " the recruits are salty,they are ready to eat their own guts and ask for seconds." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted December 15, 2000 Share Posted December 15, 2000 Pedro, we simply ran out of time. Because the Germans are most likely to be hit by aircraft, we thought it best to make their stuff first. And since all are based on just 3 different AA models (20mm, 37mm, and Quad 20mm) using vehicles already in the game (SdKfz 7 and PzIV hull) they were fairly easy to put in. We wanted to do at LEAST the M16, but simply ran out of time. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParaBellum Posted December 15, 2000 Share Posted December 15, 2000 To all this "Jäger"-Stuff: The term Jäger in German means hunter, that´s true, but in military language it´s just light infantry. While the "Panzerjäger" really can be translated with "tank hunter/killer", the infantry Jäger just signifies higly mobile, non armoured infantry, its counterpart would be the more "heavy" Panzergrenadiere. ------------------ Klotzen, nicht kleckern! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olle Petersson Posted December 15, 2000 Share Posted December 15, 2000 Some time ago I set up a test comparing stationary (towed) 37mm, 20mm and 20mm Quad AA guns vs attacking infantry running over open terrain. Best was the Quad, while the single 20mm was worst. The 37mm has been fairly effective against Sherman side armour as well when I used it in a battle. So against soft and lightly armoured targets the 20mm Quad is the optimum choice, while the 37mm is better if it has to fight medium armour as well. Cheers Olle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samhain Posted December 15, 2000 Share Posted December 15, 2000 I've been preaching the Wirbelwind (and Ostwind) anti-infantry gospel for some time based on frequent experience with them in CM and just wanted to second (or I guess third or fourth in this case ) their incredible utility in breaking up massed infantry advances and taking out lighter AFV's at the same time. The Wirbelwind, at least, is relatively cheap, decently armored, fairly fast, has tons of ammo, and quite powerful guns. Plus, it looks cool As noted above, though, watch out for arty and mortars. ------------------ Hope you got your things together, Hope you are quite prepared to die. --CCR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olle Petersson Posted December 15, 2000 Share Posted December 15, 2000 Even the un(lightly?)armoured AA halftracks serve well in this respect. Just treat them like Archers or so... Cheers Olle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bozza Posted December 15, 2000 Share Posted December 15, 2000 I can imagine, quad 20mm guns punching through a light building would make a swiss cheese out of anyone inside rather quickly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polar Posted December 15, 2000 Share Posted December 15, 2000 Open request to BT Software... PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE add the Allied M16, at the very least! It fairly unbalancing to add just the German counterpart, since 99% of the time their Ostwind are being used against Allied troops and Halftracks, and NOT air units. The Allies need something to counter balance these uber infantry killers. Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terence Posted December 15, 2000 Author Share Posted December 15, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Samhain: I've been preaching the Wirbelwind (and Ostwind) anti-infantry gospel for some time based on frequent experience with them in CM and just wanted to second (or I guess third or fourth in this case ) their incredible utility in breaking up massed infantry advances and taking out lighter AFV's at the same time. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> amen, brother -- I finished that battle last night. Germans 2 KIA and 8 injured loss of 1 Ostwind. The allies took 54 injured 37 KIA, which proportionally seems like a high number of dead. The Ostwinds, were primarily responsible for this, suppressing and destroying everything they saw. And they took out 3 or four halftracks, 3 AT guns, two trucks and two M8s and some jeeps as well. You know, when faced with a tank, a halftrack will 99 percent of the time back up and hide out of sight. But Im not sure they were all that interested in hiding from the Ostwinds. Anyone else seen the HT AI treat the Ostwind as if it was not as much of a threat as it seems to be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted December 15, 2000 Share Posted December 15, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Olle Petersson: The 37mm has been fairly effective against Sherman side armour as well when I used it in a battle.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> It can also achieve lower-hull frontal penetrations. Have seen that a number of times. As for Allied AAA - yes it would be nice to have it, but I do not believe it is that much of a problem, to be honest. I have yet to see an Ostwind in battle, and I don't think I have ever lost a battle because of German AAA and a lack of Allied AAA. Historically the Germans used their AA guns a lot in ground combat. Although the Allies did use them, it was never so important, I believe (e.g. the Crusader AA tanks w/40mm Bofors) were only issued ground sights after Le Havre, so throughout the Normandy campaign they would have been pretty useless in a ground role. ------------------ Andreas <a href="http://www.geocities.com/greg_mudry/sturm.html">Der Kessel</a > Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission. [This message has been edited by Germanboy (edited 12-15-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samhain Posted December 15, 2000 Share Posted December 15, 2000 I used an Ostwind in a QB meeting engagement today to great effect. What seems to make it and the Wirbelwind stand out are the combination of huge ammo stores and a high rate of fire. They can just keep pumping out rounds turn after turn, almost incessantly. For practical purposes, their reload times are almost nil. Ammo counts: Ostwind 210H 40A (!), Wirbelwind 136H 64A The Ostwind has a slightly larger silhouette, but thicker frontal armor and better armor penetration and muzzle velocity than the Wirbelwind. ------------------ Hope you got your things together, Hope you are quite prepared to die. --CCR [This message has been edited by Samhain (edited 12-15-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pedro Posted December 16, 2000 Share Posted December 16, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Big Time Software: Pedro, we simply ran out of time. Because the Germans are most likely to be hit by aircraft, we thought it best to make their stuff first. And since all are based on just 3 different AA models (20mm, 37mm, and Quad 20mm) using vehicles already in the game (SdKfz 7 and PzIV hull) they were fairly easy to put in. We wanted to do at LEAST the M16, but simply ran out of time. Steve<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Appreciate the reply but could they have included at a later time? The problem is that the German player is able purchase these high power Infantry killers at a low price and the Allied player has no equal. Its getting tiring watching squads get mowed down by AA that is armored, mobile and less than 50 points. Here is an obsurd but true account that happened to me. I lost a game in which a 4/20 mm AA vehicle killed 2 M18's and 2 baz teams all vets. One turn NINE bazooka rounds were launched at < 75 meters at the AA vehicle and all missed. The M18's were not ambushed and in fact were actively hunitng the AA vehicle. Not to mention the AA vehicle took multiple sniper hits and 3 81mm mortar barrages. Is this case for bad luck? sure, but my opponent was able to purchase this wonder weapon for a measily 46 points. ------------------ " the recruits are salty,they are ready to eat their own guts and ask for seconds." [This message has been edited by Pedro (edited 12-15-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Posted December 16, 2000 Share Posted December 16, 2000 Those in search of a flak experience should play the Allies in "Night at Cheneux". I just did, as I'm playing through all the Bulge scenarios. It's some considerable ugly. As to the US M16, I would like to see it in the game. While the US Army did not use AA weapons to engage ground targets as frequently as did the Heer, there are well documents instances of both SP and ground mounts being used against infantry. The was particuarly true in the Bulge, where the Germans succeeded in penetrating well past the US front lines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts