Panther's and KT's turrets are too slow

[Ari Maenpaa]

First I want to say that for me CM is the best game ever made. With it’s deepness and details it has made me very interested in WW2 tank warfare. So I bought some books and made some testing to compare those tank features modelled in CM with reality.

Because CM’s tanks are/were eager to shoot “secondary” targets during tank vs tank duels (I haven’t played with 1.04 yet) when there are any visual diversion, the turret speed of a tank is a very important feature in the game. Also it makes a big difference when tanks are in close combat.

I made some empiric testing and found out the actual turret speeds in CM.

These are estimations, but pretty close:

FAST TURRET rotates 360 degrees in 16 seconds

MEDIUM TURRET rotates 360 degs in 26 secs

SLOW TURRET rotates 360 degs in 46 secs

VERY SLOW TURRET rotates 360 degs in 60 secs

In addition to these times there seems to be a short pause before a tank begins to fire after it has traversed turret. This most likely simulates the fine adjustment of the sights/gun made by the gunner.

In CM Panther and King Tiger are classified as Slow Turret vehicles and Tiger I as a Very Slow Turret vehicle.

And now to my point:

Thomas Jentz in his book “Germany’s Panther, the Quest for Combat Supremacy” states that an improved hydraulic traverse was introduced with the Panther Ausf.A in which the speed at which the turret was traversed under power was dependent on the engine speed. After November ’43 Panther’s engine was governed at 2500 rpm max when the fastest turret traverse speed was 360 degrees in 18 seconds.

Also Jentz in “Germany’s Tiger Tanks, Tiger I & II: Combat Tactics” states that Tiger I was outfitted with a hydraulic motor for the turret drive which allowed traverse speed of 360 degrees in 60 seconds with max engine speed. An improved hydraulic traverse was introduced with Tiger II (King Tiger) which allowed it to traverse turret 360 degrees in 19 second with engine speed of 2000 rpm. Even at lower 1500 rpm 360 degrees was traversed in 25 seconds.

If Jentz is to be taken seriously, it seems that Tiger I’s turret speed is perfectly well modelled in CM, but that is not the case with Panther and King Tiger. Their turret speeds are far too low. Shouldn’t these two be classified as Medium Turret vehicles at least?

In this case there seems to be a BIG (almost 50 %) disparency between CM and reality. This means a lot in actual game action.

Also I made a search and found out that even Steve (Grammont) has agreed that Panther’s turret rotation speed is about 360 degs in about 15 secs.

My intention is to help to make CM as realistic and enjoyable as possible. There may be something that I miss here so please feel free to enlighten me.

Ari

[PeterNZer]

Goodness me! A well researched Junior Member!

Well done Wish i was so conscientious.. now i'll let the grogs take over.

que Fionn et al

PeterNZ

[Formerly Babra]

I THINK there was a long thread on this issue from several months ago. You may find some answers there if you can find it. Interesting though.

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Sounds like 100% weapons-grade bolonium to me.

[ntg84]

These turrets are really heavy, it takes longer to rotate a huge 15+ton object.

[PzKpfw 1]

Yes the Panther & Tiger B's turrets seem rather slow compared to tech data. I sugest reading the thread:

http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/Forum1/HTML/002943.html

As Bastables pointsa out we have the operational Panther at Sumar as well as the French 1947 test reports on the Panther Ausf.G as well.

Which also points out some negative aspects of the Panther turret, Ie, the traverse drive could not turn the turret or hold it in place on on inclines of 20^. The Panther was incapable of fireing while moveing, as the turret shifted due to the weak traverse motor. Their was also a delay of up to 30 secs after the TC had located a target, because the gunner had no periscope,he was practicly blind.

Some other data from the French report concerning the Panther:

- Pzgr.40 was more accurate at 1500ms then Pzgr.39 but after 1500ms Pzgr.40 accuracy declined, due to trajectory loss.

- The gunsight with 2 magnification stages is remarkably clear. Observation of target and shells is clear out to & over 3000ms.

- Very high accuracy from 1400 - 2000ms with very little ammunition expendreture, Even SprGr scored on usualy the 4th round at 2000ms.

- Due to the 7.5 cm KwK.42's accuracy and the excelent optics; optimal engagement range for the Panther was 2000ms with a high % chance of success.

- 105mm HC was the lowest calibre HC that could defeat the Panthers glacis armor.

- Running gear was very suceptable to 105mm & above HE damage.

-Fragmentation shells of 75mm & above that repeatedly strike the glacis at the same spot can penetrate the armor & or break weld seams.

Regards, John Waters

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"Go for the eyes Boo, go for the eyes!!".

[This message has been edited by PzKpfw 1 (edited 08-20-2000).]

[M Hofbauer]

(added later NOTE: disregard this post. I confused things. The Pz VI J _has_ a slow turret in CM.

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very interesting observation Ari.

while we are at it, on the opposite side of the turret-speed anomaly spectrum we have a Panzer IV Ausf. J who in CM has the same MEDIUM turret speed as the other Pz IV versions although it was one of the MAIN differences of the much simplified Pz IV J over the earlier models that it did not have that dedicated electric motor for turret traverse, instead the turret had to be rotated manually (!). In other words, the J should have much slower turret rotation than the G or H.

Or am I missing something?

yours sincerely,

M.Hofbauer

P.S.: maybe BTS just thought it didn't matter anyway since all Pz IV's die like snowballs in hell

[This message has been edited by M Hofbauer (edited 08-20-2000).]

[Formerly Babra]

Sorry, Hofbauer, Pz IVJ definitely is rated as slow traverse in CM.

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Sounds like 100% weapons-grade bolonium to me.

[Guest Mirage2k]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>while we are at it, on the opposite side of the turret-speed anomaly spectrum we have a Panzer IV Ausf. J who in CM has the same MEDIUM turret speed as the other Pz IV versions although it was one of the MAIN differences of the much simplified Pz IV J over the earlier models that it did not have that dedicated electric motor for turret traverse, instead the turret had to be rotated manually (!). In other words, the J should have much slower turret rotation than the G or H.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't actually know the answer to this, but I'd just like to point out that automation doesn't necessarily equal better performance. One only has to look at the auto-loader in the T-72—slow, and prone to breakdown.

-Andrew

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[Ari Maenpaa]

PzKpfw 1,

thanks for a very informative reply.

If Panther's slow turret speed in CM is based on that report, it's a tough compromise for Panther. Sometimes TacAI can make the slow turret speed to become a much harder hindrance than it seems to be at first glance.

And because King Tiger is Panther's "big brother" the same report most likely applies to it too. Gotta read some more.

Hmmm, could there be a possibility to get "an official take" on this from BTS?

I read the recommended thread earlier, but there was nothing to base the current rotating speeds on. Contrary to that I would say.

Ari

[howardb]

heheh.. Ari will feel quite at home here I guess.

[Måkjager]

According to H . Doyle who works closely with Mr Jentz the Kingtiger could at the max speed of the engine of 3000rpm rotate its turret 360ø in less than 10 secs.

source

New Vanguard 1 Kingtiger Heavt Tank 1942-1945

[Fionn]

Question...

Given the heat buildup problems with the Panther engine just how often do you think crews had their engines running at 2500 rpms when sitting in a defensive position?

Basically the thing is the Panther's rotation ranged from 16 seconds to 92 seconds ( or more) depending on rpms.

Guess what, half of 92 is 46 . So it seems to me to be quite clear that Charles basically figured that the Panther's engine would be running at medium RPMs and thus yield a 45 degree full rotation.

CM is NOT set up to vary traverse speeds based on RPMs and as such this compromise is necessary. And, to be fair, it seems pretty reasonable to me.

BTW. Kudos on the researched post. It's refreshing to see a newbie come in here with a nice researched post and not just a load of hot air and opinions.

Markus,

Yes, you are missing something.. Namely, you're missing that the IV J DOESN@T have the same traverse speed as the other IVs .

Andrew,

Agreed regarding automation but what was being discussed here was the fact that a turret being traversed by a matter can traverse more quickly than one being hand-cranked.

I challenge anyone to use a knee-level hand-crank to turn the Tiger Is turret. 720 revolutions of the wheel to turn the turret through 360 degrees. It made a great fine-tuner for long range firing though but you can just imagine how slow the manual traverse on a Tiger,when getting into a close-in fight,must have been if you try to simulate this yourself.

[Guest Michael emrys]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fionn:

I challenge anyone to use a knee-level hand-crank to turn the Tiger Is turret. 720 revolutions of the wheel to turn the turret through 360 degrees. It made a great fine-tuner for long range firing though but you can just imagine how slow the manual traverse on a Tiger,when getting into a close-in fight,must have been if you try to simulate this yourself.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This being the case, one wonders if it would be worthwhile to allow players the option often used by actual tankers: training the gun in the direction from which trouble is expected. Of course, if you guess wrong on that, you can kiss your ass goodbye.

Michael

[Måkjager]

Sorry Fionn , i meant to say in an emergency situation that the rpm could be stoked up to that level , so allowing the turret to traverse at that speed.

[Guest machineman]

42 seconds would seem like an eternity with an enemy tank spotted on a flank. Surely the driver would step on the gas in a flash or, better yet, turn the tank so the front glacis faced the threat. A thread here some time back mentioned that allied tankers complaining that the Panthers and Tigers ability to turn in place made it very difficult to get a flank shot.

[PzKpfw 1]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by machineman:

42 seconds would seem like an eternity with an enemy tank spotted on a flank. Surely the driver would step on the gas in a flash or, better yet, turn the tank so the front glacis faced the threat. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>]

Yes, during fireing engagements the gunner would call for traverse speed to be increased, etc. But as Fionn pointed out CM doesn't model RPMs, so a traversal speed of '46' was compromised on.

I can also see where it may have been an playability issue as well, as Shermans would be in bigger trouble in CM if the Panther had its actual RPM traversel rate. .

Regards, John Waters

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"Go for the eyes Boo, go for the eyes!!."

[This message has been edited by PzKpfw 1 (edited 08-20-2000).]

[KiwiJoe]

Would it be that hard to model...

If stationary or in reverse turrent = slow

If hunting or moving turrent = med

If fast moving turrent = fast

[guachi]

I was in a Suncoast video about six months ago talking to an employee who was a crewman on M1 tanks. I remember asking him about turret traverse speeds and he gave me some blindingly fast number.

I then asked him about hand cranking the turret and he mentioned he had to do that a few times but that it wasn't easy at all. He even said that on an incline it was virtually impossible to keep the turret from swinging around and pointing downhill.

Not exactly relevant to the discussion, but I thought it was interesting.

Jason

[Guest machineman]

Some sort of variable system like that may be a good compromise, although I still think it would take Hans the driver about 1/2 second to step on the gas after the commander shouted "Sherman at 3 o'clock", idling at the time or not.

[:USERNAME:]

From my readings I remember that RPMs were throttled as needed by the driver. The early D had the slow turret and the panther , like its name, could have a burst of speed.

I also remember reading that Panthers out of gas were SOL. It was near impossible to track a moving tank if there was no power. So the game might easily have to make an engine dead panther a super slow turret.

A good book I just read "The forgotten Battle" says the germans adopted a dispersed tank approach during these successful defensive battles. Panthers would individually disperse across the front during the day providing long range AT fire and bolstering the infantry/ATguns. At night they would move back to reserve positions together to form up a counterattack force.

Spooling up the RPMs in a defensive position is sound anyway. You need this to reverse in low gear. It might have been momentary to build up the pressure in the hydraulic reserve (you dont need to keep it buzzin). The driver probably had guages showing hyd motor pressure and would rev accordingly.

Lewis

[PzKpfw 1]

After further thought on the Panther & Tiger II's traverse speed, as well as a couple QBs & thinking of CM's commitment to realism, I believe that their traverse need adjustments and technichal data supports that the traverse speed in CM as it is now is to slow.

Fionn has brought up that Panther's wouldnt sit their with their RPM@2500 and that CM does not model RPM traversel rates. I agree they would not & understand his point; but during combat the gunner dictated the traverse RPM rate, and currently the Panther & Tiger II have been hamstrung.

46 secs was compromised on because the slowest traverse of the Panther at idle RPM is 360^ in 92secs. The use of 46 does not correctly model the Panther or TigerII's traversel rates as it ignores their RPM traverse advantages & limits them to a traversal model of Idle RPM.

IMHO the Panthers traverse should be adjusted to lower rate say 23 - 26 to represent medium RPM traverse, as well as should the Tiger II's traverse rate be adjusted to an closer number to medium traverse rates to reflect their actual capabilities. I am not sugesting we give them 2500rpm traverse rates I am saying that medium traverse rates would more realisticly model them then CM currently does.

The Sherman etc would still have faster traverse rates, just not as long as they currently have.

Regards, John Waters

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"Go for the eyes Boo, go for the eyes!!".

[This message has been edited by PzKpfw 1 (edited 08-21-2000).]

[Juardis]

Perhaps it would be better to leave the turret speed alone for conscript/green troops as presumably they would not know to increase the rpm's or would not be skilled enough to do so. For regular/veteran troops increase the speed to what John suggested (i.e., medium speed). For crack/elite give them max speed since presumably they would know the limitations for their tanks.

Just an idea.

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Jeff Abbott

[Jeff Heidman]

I think Jeff has the right idea.

Most of the things I have read about the Panther turret traverse say that it can be quite fast if you had a good crew. Namely a gunner and driver who worked together well to have the RPMs up when necessary.

However, coding the turret speed to the crew experience level could be more work than can be expected in a patch. If that is the case, the better compromise would be to go with a medium speed turret.

I think the compromise of averaging the RPMs out is flawed. There is no reason to think that the turret would ever be traversed while the engine is idling, so using that as a lower bound is invalid.

Jeff Heidman

[Juardis]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jeff Heidman:

However, coding the turret speed to the crew experience level could be more work than can be expected in a patch. If that is the case, the better compromise would be to go with a medium speed turret.

Jeff Heidman<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not for the uber programmer Charles Just kidding. You may be right, I have no idea, just offering possible solution that could be worked into CM2 if not in a patch for CM1. If not in CM1, then I agree perhaps increase the turret speed to 26 sec for all crew qualities.

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Jeff Abbott

[Juha Ahoniemi]

That is very good idea from Jeff indeed. Clearly the present solution, or compromise, does not make justice to Panther. It is very true that veteran crew would use tank abilities more efficient than green one. I have a little perspective of my own on this one since when I served in army I drove an AA-vehicle called "Marksman"(british turret with swiss 35mm dual Oerlikons mounted on T-55AM refitted hull).That vehicle weighs 40 metric tons and when You are green You just concentrate to not break it up! But when you get to kwow Your "tool" it is possible perform more things with better results.

Someone mentioned that you wouldn´t roar the engine when standing still with Your Panther- OK, I don´t know what kind of overheating problems there were with the Panther but cooling systems of T-55 required that after driving we had to roar engine to cool it down. That was because the cooling system worked better with higher revs. But then again T-55 is originally russian design Of course if You are lurking some prey You don´t roar your engine if you are hiding. But I sure You that with a little experience crew would use more "tricks" and achieve better results. My point here is that I agree with Ari - and Jeff just presented a great idea IMHO. But I enjoy enormously about CM as it is - the best wargame ever made.

Juha