Wish-list

[BDW]

I used to post here in the "old days" when there was uproar over things like bad alpha graphics and the proper potrayal of burning men. Those were exciting times, and I have been eargerly awaiting this demo ever since.

I must say I was mucho-confused and found the interface very awkward at first. The operative words here are "at first". After a few goes at it, and nothwithstanding a few techinical glitches, I realized this beta demo truly kicks ass!!

Beta demo. This isn't even the REAL demo yet. Wow! What an awesome, subtle, and interesting game. You really have to think and plan and orchestrate your moves. I spend a bunch of time on the set-up phase and my initial order phase. Those way-points are so cool. I usually don't have to do anything for the first three or four turns - if things go according to plan, that is....

I am impressed that BTS has created an entirely new kind of game.

OK - I have a few suggestions I'd like to add to the pool of suggestions for BTS:

1) I would like to see a feature that would work like this: when you select a unit, you can press a key that highlights all the enemy units that have a LOS to your unit. Even better would be if the LOS's were drawn from your unit to all the enemey units that are in LOS. This would be helpful when you are considering taking hidden units out of hiding and opening fire. This would also be helpful when deciding who to target in general. It would also help so you don't accidentally overlook an enemy unit that can see you. (of course, this can be done manually, now, by selecting your unit then dragging the LOS thing around, but that is kind of a hassle and when your computer isn't that fast, the LOS cursur has a tendency to jump around quite a bit. I would like to be able to select a unit, wait a few seconds for the LOS lines to enemy units to be drawn, then be able to survey the situation by moving the camera around)

2) I would like to see a yes/no confirmation ("are you sure?") before you accidentally cancel an artillary barrage by selecting another target before the artillery is fired. I won't do it againg - but it sucked learning that lesson the hard way. This happened to me after I had waited 4 minutes for artillery to fall.

3) I would like to see the unit bases be a brighter color - like during set up phase. The grey is hard to see from a distance. I would prefer bright red for one side and bright blue for the other side (or maybe you'd let us choose the colors?)

4) I would like to see a more drastic coloring of the terrain. I find it very hard to distinguish the shades of green and determine elevation. I would really like to see it go from lite green to brown, rather then from lite green to dark green.

5) I thought hand-to-hand combat fell kind of flat. Basically, the enemy guys walked up to my guys and then my guys disappeared off the map. I'm not sure what could be done to make it more exciting, though.

6) One thing I would really like to see is a little floating number over the heads of the infantry units representing strength. I really like the labels, and I think it would be very cool to have the option of having the strength/size number, too. I think it would be VERY cool to sit back and watch all those little numbers above the enemy units count down as I let them have it. It would be much more satisfying and easier to read then clicking on all the units or carefully looking at the represented number of "men" on the battlefield.

7) Tougher AI. (I think so...although I have only played twice - but I got a Total Victory both times. The AI seems to do stuff I find odd - like bunching up its units and changing it's mind. The AI seems to lack a pro-active plan. It seems too reactive to me.)

Well, that is my wish-list for now. I'd welcome any comments from BTS (or from anyone else for that matter).

OK time to get some sleep now - damn you BTS!

[Thomm]

I second especially (6), but I would prefer vertical stacks of counters for inactive/healthy soldiers. A picture tells more than 1000 numbers ! (Please see also my suggestions).

[Guest Scott Clinton]

(This may have been brought up before)

I would like to see future releases add in command delays for units based on the distance they are from their COMPANY HQ or higher level HQs in addition to Platoon HQs.

The "command chain" in CM has only one link in it. Although this is one more (and better) than any other game, adding a second link for already existing HQ units would be great IMO!

The way the game works now (at least in the demo) the Company HQ ends up just being an auxiliary HQ. You use it to pick up stragglers, and to command independent elements, and fill holes in the line where you don't have enough Platoon HQs.

It would be great if there was a command link from COMPANY HQs to the Platoon HQs similar to the links now from each Squad or Team to its Platoon HQ. The length of these would have to be allowed to be longer, but the principle would be the same, I think.

I would go to say that any delay do to the Platoon HQ being too far from the Company HQ would apply not only to the Platoon HQ but also to all of its subordinate units.

And, of course…

A friendly 'unit-overview screen'...

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The Grumbling Grognard

[Jarmo]

6) One thing I would really like to see is a little floating number over the heads of the infantry units representing strength.

That would be great. As an option, not for all time.

[TangoYankee]

What would have really helped:

1. Right-click on any unoccupied place in the map to get the "Hotkeys" menu to pop up. Then be able to select items on the Hotkeys menu with the mouse. (You don't know how many times I would right-click expecting to see a menu)

2. Being able to hit ESC in the middle of ploting a command to remove it instead of having to plot it, the backspace to remove it. Same for arty, ambushes, etc.

3. Left-click on any part of the map and show what the terrain is for that area. It's hard to tell the difference between Trees, Woods and Heavy Woods, even with the max trees turned on.

4. An popup (with a great layout by M Hofbauer here: http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/Forum1/HTML/001164.html) to show the current status of your units. It's the same as clicking on each one to see how they're doing. A time-saver.

I think everything else is great. The best wargame sim so far. Can't wait for the release.

TY

[Los]

BDW...

re: unit bases: I believe that's a function of the unit editor, there are three possible colors for each side, but I may be wrong. I seem to remmeber being able to do that. point is if it's in the editor it'll be in the release. (colors I saw were bright green, red, blue, grey and a few others).

RE: Terrain. Just IMO, it looks good as is. I like the fact that you have to get down to make a good terrain anlysis, that is as it should be. But again in the editor, you get a good 2d terrain elevation and other terrain type model.

RE: H2H I agree with you, there's not much there to watch up close. But there's a lot of work that has to go into modelling stuff like that and it's late in the game. Hopefully after CM is released they will be able to continue to add models and animations after they hire another five or ten modellers/artisist based on all the green they'll be hauling in.

As an aside, I very rarely go down and watch the models at the lowest levels. the only time I do that is if I want to see the terrain from that level. I like the miniatures tabletop view.

Scott

Re: command Delays, Again I'm not sure but you already get varying command delays depending upon some things, how far away you are from eth leader and whether or not you are in and out of CC radius. When you give a movement order you initially get a delay number for how long it will take for them to get moving. But perhaps you are looking for something else or I am explaining it wrong?

Cheers...

Los

P.S> I haven't messed with the beta demo only the full beta so i don't know what you guys have access too re: the editor so my apolgies if I'm stating the obvious..

[Mike D]

I would really like to see items 1-3 proposed by TangoYankee implemented in the game.

Mike D

aka Mikester

[Guest Scott Clinton]

LOS:

Are you saying that there are command delays for the PLATOON HQs built into the game (just no 'lines')?

If so GREAT! Do they 'trickle down' to the squads and teams too?

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The Grumbling Grognard

[Los]

TY:

I like one and two good idea Two would require remapping the window switching key to something else but hitting esc is intuitive for cancelling something anyway. (Lord knows a number of times I've had brain lock up and gotten into a click trap!) RE: 3 I believe it already does that. But if not it definately should be.

Scott: regarding all the intricacies, I'm afraid I can't go into that since I don't know the specific math behind it,(as far as what factors effect to what agree how long the delays are.) I'm sure someone will bealong from BTS shortly.

BDW regarding your number one item. (IDing LOS of units that can see you.) That's really info that you don't have in an actual engagement. You only know what you can see not who can see you so it would be gamey as heck. Perhaps an as an option though I doubt BTS would implement it.

Los

[Moon]

TangoYankee - thanks for that short list. It's actually funny when I think that this is the essence of something like 2000 messages on this board and a bucket full of high blood pressure

[TangoYankee]

I think that my only complaints being three low and one medium level cosmetic items, and only a couple of minor technical issues is an example of good prep work that BTS has done. I truely am amazed at how good the first release is. I've never seen any software start this well with such minor issues to be fixed.

[kingtiger]

Moon,

It really is a short list of desired add-ons. About that pop-up OOB. I think it is still uneccesary, but now I really don't want to see it mainly because of a comment by

__________________________________________

R Cunningham:

"So Richard, you are perfectly willing to be thrashed by a anal retentive control freak who will watch the replay 50 times, check the status of each unit and the kills screen where it tells you how many casualties have been inflicted by that unit, do a little math and beat you in the information game?

Contrary to your idea that this would destroy the level playing field, I see no change. It may be advantageous to use it but Jedi masters of the "old ways" can still click their way to total enlightenment. The difference would be just a matter of time."

____________________________________________

Well what can I say:

I can't believe that the "Jedi Masters of the Old ways" would really replay the video 50 times to gather information and write it onto little notepads. I love the idea of knowing that someone is spending 30 hours on a PBEM just to lose a game that I spend 150 minutes at. It really makes me chuckle. I think that if these Jedi Masters of the Old ways" truly are going to spend that kind of time playing this or any game to win a scenario, I say, "NUTS". I don't know why I chose to say that, but I remember it was used to reply to the surrender request from ......

Sincerely,

Richard Kalajian

[Harold Jones]

Two things I'd like to see.

1. Multiple starting unit packages for a scenario. For example, in Reisburg the Germans get a couple of companies of infantry and 2 88's every time. Instead a scenario designer could set up maybe 3 at start units and assign a probability for each one. That way the forces controlled by each side would be somewhat variable.

2. Allow something similar for reinforcements. Sort of an if/then thing. If the Shermans arrive on turn 5 then the 3 hellcats scheduled to arrive on turn 7 don't show up, or something like that.

Granted these options would make scenario balancing a lot more difficult, but I think they would be worth it from a replayability standpoint. As it stands today, I know that the Hellcats won't show up for at least the first ten minutes and also once I kill all three of them the US only has bazookas for AT defense.

------------------

If something cannot be fixed by hitting it or by swearing at it, it wasn't worth saving anyway.

[guachi]

I also more or less want the first feature that BDW proposed.

Basically, I want to have some kind of feature that will only show what enemy units a particular friendly unit has LOS to. This would help immensely when making decisions on who to fire at. As it is, only the level one view gives any idea on who a unit can see and I don't find level one good for giving orders.

I give orders from the top down view. I like to think of it as the map the company commander has. Having a tool that shows all the units a particular unit can see is like the Platoon HQ yelling out "How many Yanks do you see, Private?" And the reply coming back, "Four, sir. One on the ridge, one in a foxhole, and two in trees to my left." This keeps me from having to use the LOS tool to check every possible unit on the map. I find it hard in top down view to figure out if units can see the enemy or not because the topdown maps lack contour lines (which I think they should have) and keeping trees on sometimes obscures the units underneath that I have LOS to. Heck, trees sometimes obscure MY guys.

I also want the reverse. That is, when I clic on an enemy unit I get a line to all of the friendly guys that can se it. This is especially useful if there is a specific target that I want to surpress. It's like the HQ saying, "I want everybody that can see that MG to fire at it and keep its head down!"

I find it boring having to repeatedly check this stuff. We've already got a firing at/being fired at line by default. Why not add a enemies that can be seen/friendly units that can see enemy line? Maybe make it hot key switchable from one to the other.

Not only would this feature be helpful, I think that it is (somewhat) realistic, too. The hypothetical orders from the HQ are how I imagine this works.

If we can have firing lines we can have LOS lines.

"Private, what unit are you firing at?" "That squad over there, sir."

"Who's firing at the Heavy SMG squad?"

"Looks like it's taking fire from four directions, sir"

"Okay, let's see if we can't relieve the pressure and hope it can make a successful withdrawal"

"How may guys we got shooting at that squad on the hill?"

"I'm getting reports that five squads and a MG, sir"

"Six! Well, that's too many. Give a couple of 'em orders to shoot at something else."

And this is how I imagaine the conversation goes that is summed up in the yellow and red firing lines.

One more feature that has been requested that I also want is for the game to show what terrain (and possibly elevation) is underneath the cursor without having to use the LOS tool. I figure that if the company or battalion HQ has a map of the battle area, he already has access to this info anyway.

Notice that, while my suggestions are from a gameplay standpoint, I think they are things that a platoon/company/battalion HQ would have access to. Although I will admit that a unit not in command radius of any HQ might not be able to provide LOS info to his commander.

And I don't wish for an OOB screen. I knew what type of game CM was supposed to be and took that design choice to heart. And this comes from a person who is proud to be a numbers junkie

(There were actually several more paragraphs added to the above. But there has already been too much digital inked spilled on this topic)

Jason

[Guest Michael emrys]

Thought I'd vote on some of these suggestions.

1) I would like to see a feature that would work like this: when you select a unit, you can press a key that highlights all the enemy units that have a LOS to your unit. Even better would be if the LOS's were drawn from your unit to all the enemey units that are in LOS. This would be helpful when you are considering taking hidden units out of hiding and opening fire. This would also be helpful when deciding who to target in general. It would also help so you don't accidentally overlook an enemy unit that can see you. (of course, this can be done manually, now, by selecting your unit then dragging the LOS thing around, but that is kind of a hassle and when your computer isn't that fast, the LOS cursur has a tendency to jump around quite a bit. I would like to be able to select a unit, wait a few seconds for the LOS lines to enemy units to be drawn, then be able to survey the situation by moving the camera around)

Too "gamey", in my opinion.

2) I would like to see a yes/no confirmation ("are you sure?") before you accidentally cancel an artillary barrage by selecting another target before the artillery is fired. I won't do it againg - but it sucked learning that lesson the hard way. This happened to me after I had waited 4 minutes for artillery to fall.

Not a bad idea.

3) I would like to see the unit bases be a brighter color - like during set up phase. The grey is hard to see from a distance. I would prefer bright red for one side and bright blue for the other side (or maybe you'd let us choose the colors?)

Indifferent.

4) I would like to see a more drastic coloring of the terrain. I find it very hard to distinguish the shades of green and determine elevation. I would really like to see it go from lite green to brown, rather then from lite green to dark green.

I sort of agree with this, but not about the green to brown bit. I would like a somewhat higher saturation in the colors and some more light/dark contrast would give the picture more snap. I'd give up my .45 for a real sky. I didn't realize how much I missed that until I saw a screenshot form Panzer Elite that had it and I almost wept.

5) I thought hand-to-hand combat fell kind of flat. Basically, the enemy guys walked up to my guys and then my guys disappeared off the map. I'm not sure what could be done to make it more exciting, though.

No comment.

6) One thing I would really like to see is a little floating number over the heads of the infantry units representing strength. I really like the labels, and I think it would be very cool to have the option of having the strength/size number, too. I think it would be VERY cool to sit back and watch all those little numbers above the enemy units count down as I let them have it. It would be much more satisfying and easier to read then clicking on all the units or carefully looking at the represented number of "men" on the battlefield.

Absolutely not! Way too "gamey". I wouldn't want to play with that and I wouldn't want to play against anybody using it.

7) Tougher AI. (I think so...although I have only played twice - but I got a Total Victory both times. The AI seems to do stuff I find odd - like bunching up its units and changing it's mind. The AI seems to lack a pro-active plan. It seems too reactive to me.)

Give a few more shots at you. It may hold some surprises.

Michael

[Los]

Just wanted to confirm that unit base color is something set in the scenario editor.

I also agree with Michael that the whole LOS issues brought up on this thread are way to "gamey" and fly in the face of what CM is trying to do.

Los

[guachi]

Los,

How is it 'gamey' for me to be able to tell what enemy units one of my units can see? I get automatic fire lines now, why not an automatic line to units in LOS.

When an enemy unit appears, it's a real pain in the ass trying to find out which unit it is that can see it. Targeting units is the one part of the game I find really boring and tedious. It sucks when each side has 15 units in one area. Maybe 10 of them are potentially visible to one of my guys. I use the LOS tool to find out that really only five are visible to the highlighted unit. Then I have to go back over those five (if I can remember which five) and pick the best target based on firepower, exposure and my tactical plan.

The reverse is also true. If I want all available units to fire at a particular enemy I have to click to find them all.

In my first attempt at Riesberg as the Germans I decided to write up an AAR.

These are the number of turns I gave no fire orders:

1,2,5,6,10,11,12,15

The game was pretty much over at this point

so I didn't bother keeping track of things turn by turn.

Why did I give no orders? Because it was a pain trying to target things. I only targeted when something was really important. A couple of times was when a unit was underfire and I wanted to relieve the pressure a bit, but I'm not sure how well the units carried out my orders. I know there is some talk about this and I wish I had been paying closer attention. I suppose if I hadn't been writing an AAR and taking screenshots I might have taken more time.

Maybe I'm doing something wrong but fighting the interface shouldn't be something a player should have to do for more than a game or two. It's not that I don't have the time to do this, I just find it boring.

Jason

[This message has been edited by guachi (edited 11-03-99).]

[Fionn]

Have patience... It simply takes some people a little longer to get accustomed to really SEEING LOS etc...

It just seems to be taking you a bit longer Jason but it will happen.

------------------

___________

Fionn Kelly

Manager of Historical Research,

The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers

[guachi]

From what view level should I use to determine LOS?

I find level one doesn't work too well when trying to spot from units in trees/buildings to units in trees/buildings. Things get obscured. If I take trees off then I have a hard time telling if a unit is being blocked from the now nonexistent trees. If I give orders from a top down view it reduces greatly the amount of panning I have to do. This really wasn't a problem in Last Defense. But in Riesberg it is a mess with all the trees.

Can anybody who is succeding at making quick LOS judgements clue me in on to how to do it quickly?

It's not really a big problem, it's just that it is not fun dragging an LOS line all over the screen. And it's also the one part of the game that wasn't super easy to pick up on.

And the other reason I'm griping for no particular reason is that I know somebody out there who cares will read this and take the time to respond.

Jason

[Los]

Settle down Guachi, you might knock something over! Your particular point about highlighting what units your squad already has LOS to is not so bad, but witness others in this thread:

1."when you select a unit, you can press a

key that highlights all the enemy units that have a LOS to your unit."

That's BS. SO...any unit that can see me is automagically given away? I wish we had that feature in real life.

As far as how to help you judge LOS, I don't know what to tell you. The Mark One eyeball usually works pretty well, then from there if I need to make a LOS check I do. When I position units somewhere (say on D) I make LOS checks to the terrain around them, IDing deadspace and whatnot. They're there to cover a certain piece of ground anyone in there after that gets blasted. I don't feel the need to make LOS checks with all my units all the time to see if they should be shooting something. My units are moving or firing to achieve some specific purpose like to support an assault or breakthrough at some point etc. Nor do I feel that I have to have my units firing all the time at whatever they can see just because they can. And usually they do fine shooting on their own without me having to hold their hands, but that's through proper positioning. Sorry if the interface is too cludgy, or that you have to fight it, I haven't had that problem. If you are "to lazy" to target or the game is too boring, well...oh well?

As far as what's the best view to check LOS? If you are going to do a LOS check with the actual tool then I prefer to do it from a 2 or 3 key three-quarter view. (Mostly becasue it's easier to select the target point that way especially in undulating terrain. I don't use the top down views becasue it's harder to see elevation that way. With the three quarter views then I can see _why_ something is being blocked. And that leads to learning about it and judging it on the fly next time.

Still It's also a good idea, at times to get down, select the questioning unit, hit TAB and then key 1 and see things from their eyes, (though it's hard to use the LOS tool from this view.) This view is particularly useful when you want to check a covered and concealed route to or from somewhere, or view your defensive setup from the enemy's perspective, or check out dead space.

This is the bread and butter or what real commanders do. Terrain analysis/appreciation and understandibng how terrain plays a vital role in tactics and in the friendly and enemy plans. More than any other game before, CM puts this key aspect where it is supposed to be: right at the forefront.

On another front, Scott, regarding Command Delays, I'm not so sure now, that the current game has the command delays as you describe, I notice even units in the black or with their HQs wiped out can usually do something fairly quickly. I've sene pauses of 6, 13, and maybe 20 tops but that's no so bad really. But hopefully Fionnn or Steve knows more.

Cheers...

Los

[This message has been edited by Los (edited 11-03-99).]

[guachi]

Ah, now I understand where your gamey comment came from, los (not LOS )

You're right, of course, that knowing what the enemy can see is a bit gamey.

Maybe I'll just start up a scenario just to play around with LOS (not los) and jsut focus on why my units can/can't see something.

Maybe if I make a crusade out of this, I can become as irritating as the OOB screen proponents. Or maybe not.

If Steve reads this, I think an auto LOS would speed order giving up a bit.

Although I think I've spent more time writing and thinking about this topic than the extra time it would take in the game to do it the way I have been doing it.

Jason

[This message has been edited by guachi (edited 11-03-99).]

[Thorsten]

I also have thought about the LOS situation while playing. Actually, I thought about this while playing Close Combat. Instead of an LOS tool, I would prefer LOS to be indicated by a 2-D field. Thus any area within LOS shows up as red, while anything blocked by trees, buildings, elevation, etc. would appear as normal. It occurred to me that someone might think this was 'gamey' but if you think about it, it's the LOS tool that is gamey, not an LOS field. When you look over a particular area, you instantly know what you can see and what you can't see. You don't have to look through some scope or through the sights of a gun in order to find out what you can see. The limitation should be that the LOS field only covers the direction the unit is facing, within say a 120 degree arc (obviously less for buttoned up AFVs). This makes sense since you can't tell if you can see something if you aren't looking at it.

Whether this should be used in addition to the LOS tool, I don't know. I don't know if it should be added to CM either, it was just a thought I had that I think is worth considering.

Thorsten

[kingtiger]

Harold Jones mentioned way da heck up dis tread:

Two things I'd like to see.

1. Multiple starting unit packages for a scenario. For example, in Reisburg the Germans get a couple of companies of infantry and 2 88's every time. Instead a scenario designer could set up maybe 3 at start units and assign a probability for each one. That way the forces controlled by each side would be somewhat variable.

2. Allow something similar for reinforcements. Sort of an if/then thing. If the Shermans arrive on turn 5 then the 3 hellcats scheduled to arrive on turn 7 don't show up, or something like that.

Did anyone have a comment on this or did BTS say yes, no or on-list?

Richard Kalajian

[Thomm]

Two thoughts on LOS (only suggestions, do not flame me, please):

1. Restrict possible camera positions in such a way that eye level can be obtained only in the close vicinity of friendly units, whereas high levels >4 can be set all over the map (as the equivalent to a real map):
   
   
   
2. Introduce a more subtle "Movement to Visual Contact" order, which allows forward observers or MG teams to use as much cover as possible yet obtain a LOS to the enemy. This is vital for the abstracted woods, where (at least I) cannot tell clearly from where I will get a LOS.
   
   

Thanks for your attention,

Thomm

[This message has been edited by Thomm (edited 11-04-99).]

[Moon]

Thomm, here is a quick hint on how to find out what your LOS is when in woods. Click on a unit in woods and call up the LOS tool. Extend the LOS line to the egde of the woods. You will see that part of the line is red, and part is black. The black part is "roughly" the distance you have to move forward closer the the woods edge to be able to look out.