Lighting a candle for the "Kursk"

[Fionn]

Guachi,

Point taken. I was just attempting to point out the duality in perception. Nowadays sensibilities have changed do Custer isn't viewed as a "hero" by those in the know HOWEVER at the time he was very much the impetuous hero.

Judgement of actions depends on both which side one is on and the sensibilities of one's culture/society ( they are distinct and separate entities).

Nowadays, thankfully, people who know the history of the situation don't see him as a hero BUT if you stop your average history-illiterate American on the streets and ask them about Custer well, 90% won't have any idea what you're talking about and probably 90% of those who do will come back with the stock " Army officer killed in a big fight with the indians"...

Only a tiny minority will have read any books and understand the deeper issue at play here.

Now for Johnson,

Well, I would suggest getting access to some satellite channels or somesuch. Unfortunatel TV media in Europe is going down the tubes also ( reports about new films, hairstyles etc etc). Still, some of the documentaries etc are still worth viewing.

As for Seanachai's points... All I'll say is that through my reading and personal experience I have come to believe that man's natural state is one of "selfish inhumanity to others". Admittedly the world would be a better place if it all got "touchy-feely" and peace-loving BUT it isn't, it won't and to delude yourself that it is is merely to set yourself up to be easily manipulable. At least if you understand the realpolitik and sheer, unadulterated savagery of the world you have some degree of armour against naivete clouding your perceptions. It's not much but it is all one can do, unfortunately.

As for the "looking into Irish history".. You may have smiled but I personally didn't. I saw it as just another American who probably has almost no understanding of the situation taking a dig at me when I discuss civil wars elsewhere just because I happen to be Irish. I saw nothing funny in it.

Guachi,

As for Sherman . Well, I doubt that many people ever regard an enemy general as a hero, even after they are absorbed into the victorious country.

I guess Sherman for you would be like Cromwell is to an Irish person . Not exactly and exalted name

[Guest Mr. Johnson-<THC>-]

Holy ****! I had no idea you were Irish Fionn! I would have used native americans or something anything else. Just trying to make a point about wars of independence and all, hope you understand. Pure Nastiness, civil wars, there is nothing civil about them. When you mentioned the Sherman back there I thought you were refering to the Tank, aka purple heart pillboxes. How old are Fionn? 1020 years old? Seems like you've done 3 or 4 generations worth of research on Military history. I'm doing my best to match you, but I did know if I'll live long enough to absorb as much as you have. Really sorry about using the Irish example back there. I've got some Scotsman in me too. hehehe I secretly love to give the redcoats a thrashing in any wargame. Not to say I dislike Brits, we do share good taste in beer.

[AR]

Why is Fionn talking about the Soviets all the time. Soviet this and Soviet that. Perhaps one or two historybooks too many. I believe it is Russia nowadays but I can be wrong. It has happened before.

[Fionn]

AR,

It'll always be the Soviet Red Army to me . Ah, the good old days .

Honestly, I'm just so used to calling them the Soviets that it is hard to remember to call them Russians these days.

Johnson,

Ok, I thought you knew I was Irish and that therefore the comment was "aimed". I'm perfectly willing to accept you didn't know though. No hard feelings.

And no, I'm only a youngster . A youngster with an old and cynical outlook though

[Jeff Heidman]

The latest is that US "technical sources" (read: really, really sophisticated sonar on the two attack subs we have parked in the area) are saying that there was not one explosion on the Kursk, but two. One large one, followed by a much larger one.

Also, US intelligence is claiming that there has NOT been any tapping on the hull at all, and that the best guess of the analysts is that the entire crew was killed during or shortly after the accident.

However, I am not sure I would put too much faith in those reports. However, if there was tapping loud enough to be heard by teh fleet above or a submersible close to Kursk, it should be audible to a US sub in the area.

Finally, the latest estimates say that if anyone is alive their oxygen will run out Friday. The Brit DSRV should be there Saturday. That would be a horrible shame to find out that some of those men died because the Russians could not make a decision to seek help fast enough.

Jeff Heidman

[Jeff Heidman]

On a related note:

After the rescue mission is over, what then?

If the Russians decide to not raise the Kursk, would they destroy it in place? I would assume that they would not leave it there, simply because it is shallow enough water that NATO would be all over it in a heartbeat.

Jeff Heidman

[Guest Der Unbekannte Jäger]

Just thought a bit of an update was in order, the Russian navy has actually upded the number of crew said to be onboard. It now stands at 118 men.

And I am sorry if this has been mentioned before but there were two explossions that were supposedly heard. One primary (torpedo, mine whatever set things off) and then a massive secondary. The secondary is thought to be from torpedo storage.

As well the British DSRV has an ETA of Saturday. Much too late IMO.

[Spook]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fionn:

Spook,

Sheesh, lighten up a bit. Regardless of the seriousness of the situation it IS blackly ironic to light a candle for people dyingfrom /having died of oxygen deprivation.

As for the critique part. I wasn't critiquing anyone. I was simply noting an irony. If you can't look at the fact that I was simply pointing out an irony without getting all tangled up in political correctness etc then its your own bad.

Sheesh, sometimes I wonder if you Americans want to create a world where no-one can point out errors or ironic occurences for fear of "hurting someone's feelings". Get a grip, it's the real world and feelings get trampled on and people die.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Fionn, it's rather "darkly amusing" to me that YOU would make such a lecture to me about "getting a grip". I'm not normally inclined to bring up forum history, but I've seen you lose your cool plenty of times here (justifiably or otherwise) to take up such a position now in such an aloof manner.

My response to your critique (and yes, Fionn, word-parsing doesn't change the fact that it was still that) has nothing to do with "political correctness", or "hurt feelings", or being an American/Irish/Russian, or whatever other strawman you choose here. It's your own bad, and yours alone, when you choose to drop a "black irony" comment that was lacking a bit in dignity. It would simply have been better for you to have remained silent in this one case, no matter how vehemently you may argue otherwise.

And finally, you are NOT in a position to lecture to me about how hard a world it is out there, because you know nothing of my own personal life. I've lived it damn near 40 years---in the US and in the Philippines---to have my toes crushed plenty of times, and to see it done to others. I've seen death, and I've seen squalor in places like Cebu & Manila that defies any written description. But I've also marveled at how many of the people I've seen living in such conditions can still maintain their good grace and dignity.

I maintain that you made inappropriate comment, and you've dug in your heels and maintain otherwise. So be it. "Get a grip" and realize that some of your statements can be challenged and refuted in a rational manner, and further allow that it's POSSIBLE for you to be wrong once in a while.

Well, I'm not going to direct any further comments to you on this thread, as I am uncomfortable at having to take you to task over this minor issue (although it's a hard world, as you say). And I prefer for our future interaction on these forums to stay on a cordial note.

And I think it was actually worse for this thread to stray from its initial good intentions into debating instead Cold-War politics and nationalist mantras, but the counter-posts on those have sufficed to preclude my added commentary there. If it strays too much more, though, I'll probably request a padlock.

[risc]

I will add my candle to the cause. I follow the news since it started and I sincerely hope that the sailors get saved, though I know that at this stage things look very bad. I can image in the horror those guys must go through, Das Boot movie comes to mind a bit...I hope that the British rescue team will complete their mission, last hope for the sailors.

Peter

[tss]

Fionn wrote:

It'll always be the Soviet Red Army to me

... of Workers and Peasants. Or was it the another way round.

- Tommi

[Fionn]

Spook,

Of course it is possible to be wrong sometimes etc. BUT in ANY case when you are going to chastise someone over the TONE of their comments (and not the actually substance) the INTENTION behind those comments comes into play.

1. I didn't write what I wrote in any attempt to get on Grogs case.

2. I made it clear that I was merely posting because I felt there was something blackly ironic here. I actually found it AMUSING if you must know. However, due to sensibilities here I didn't write.. "Hey, does anyone else find it funny that this thread features the lighting of a candle in memory of guys who suffocated?" I wrote it in a slightly different manner. THEN you come along and misinterpret it.. Now I can categorically say I wasn't chastising anyone because I actually was amused by the title and I'm not in the habit of chastising people for making darkly amusing faux pas. Of course, I don't expect any reason to stop you now that you're going.

3. What the hell is wrong with pointing out black irony? I didn't attack anyone vehemently. I didn't tell people I hoped the Russians died. I didn't do much of anything. Hell, I even went out of my way to only hint at amusement so as not to offend anyone.

OTOH you decided to take issue with this for some reason and keep taking issue with it so you can batter me around with your righteous indignation or something.

4. I think the fact that you're taking the comments SO seriously that you're going off the deep end about "40 years of hard life" etc show that just maybe you're taking this a bit too seriously, certainly a lot more seriously than I intended and that perhaps you've just venting at me because I happen to be here???

Venting at me because of something else? Oh, and if you want to get into the absolute ****iness of life and who has seen more of humanity's low points then I'm quite sure I can take you on one for one. However, again, you attacked me for "introducing" something I didn't introduce.

Frankly, I can't help it if you've decided to get yourself angry over this. If there's one thing I've learnt on this forum it is that if someone WANTs to get angry with you then they WILL get angry with you regardless of what you say. You and others like you will ALWAYS find some pretext and there's nothing I can do to stop that.

6. I wasn't "lecturing" you. I wrote ONE godamn sentence condemning political correctness and then basically said that I felt political corectness had no place in the harsh world and YOU turn it into a "lecture"????

Sorry dude but whatever nerve I tipped in YOU has got you reading things into what I'm saying which aren't there.

You're seeing critiques of others which aren't there, critiques of yourself which aren't there, lectures which aren't there etc. Like I said, if you want to see those things there's nothing I can do to stop you seeing them. ANY human will always see what he wants to see if the situation can possibly allow it.

As for future interactions . Oh trust me, if you're going to continue to read things into what I write which aren't there then I will take the one course open to me to prevent that.. I'll make sure not to respond to anything you write. It's the only sure way I've found of stopping people who "want" to pick a fight.. Simply cut off the supply of words they can wilfully misinterpret to justify their sense of anger etc.

So, in closing, so long as you see things which aren't there, accuse me of lecturing you whenever I write a single godamn sentence etc I see absolutely no compelling reason for us to interact. Like I've said many times before.. I don't feel like being a target to malcontents.

Oh and as for forum history...

Sure, I've gotten angry at people who have attacked me etc. However I TRY not to.. In your case I didn't get angry at someone who completely misrepresented my position etc etc. I should THINK that you should be congratulatory as regards the fact that I am TRYING to maintain control more instead of using said improvement to attack me even more.

It's people like you with your "holier than thou"... "I don't like bringing up the past BUT since it'll allow me to get a punch in below the belt I WILL AND I'll make it count"... attitudes and continual offence whenever I don't screen every word who make me extremely annoyed.

Now, the ball's quite simply in your court. As far as I'm concerned I want nothing to do with ANY person who is going to continue to misrepresent my position after I have publicly explained the error of his original misinterpretation.

Also, I'll note that it is pretty damned low to attack someone who DOES have a temper but DOES try to control it for CONTROLLING IT. If you'd attacked me after I flamed you for no reason that'd have been cool but to attack me because I succeeded in being civil with you is just pretty despicable.

So, hope you continue to have fun attacking people whilst proclaiming loudly that you don't enjoy doing so. Hope it soothes whatever needs your soul has.

[Spook]

Well, If it's "back in my court", I will then be a cur and violate my earlier assertion about not posting again.

Quite an impressive, long-written statement about how you resent when other people read things into your words & views. It's all the more impressive in that I agree with it in principle. But as you've chosen to read my counter-replys as "having fun in attacking you or other people", it APPEARS that you don't quite understand some of your own written principles well enough. I suggest that you make a printed copy of your new comments and read them to yourself in a mirror about three or four times.

I'm "having fun" getting on your case? Not in the least, sir, not in the least. And I'm not having fun with this now.

It's rather obvious that I've touched more than a few of your nerves by the length of your counter-reply. If you regard all of my earlier comments as an personal attack on your character, then I publicly apologize as that wasn't my intention. I just think you made one mistake in your "irony" post, I still think it was a mistake regardless of the "dark humour" you say you were attempting, but hey, you're a sinner, I'm a sinner (big-time! ), we all make mistakes, and life goes on.

If it means anything to you, then yeah, I took the "sheltered PC American unable to get a grip" on a personal note. I felt it directed to me, and and such, devoid of the perspective that you typically try to show here. I felt it as a LOW attack at me.

So guess what? By touching your nerves, you touched mine back, and I escalated with equating your "get a grip" reply with some "forum history." So guess what further? I'll now admit that specific follow-up to be MY mistake. I'm a sinner, I'll own up to my sin. Unlike "fdiskboy's" comment on another topic, it isn't fun in the least to see forum clashes. I think it's a bit saddening instead, and I will admit that you usually try to show restraint in such situations.

And yet....here we are.

If I've now made you too indignant to respond to me in the future, that's regrettable, but it's your choice too. Well, thanks anyway for the past CM & historical information that you've provided specifically to me.

Life goes on.

[This message has been edited by Spook (edited 08-17-2000).]

[Jeff Heidman]

Hey, anyone heard about that Russian submarine that sank?

Jeff

[Trooper]

Eh? What? Where?! I've been too busy reading these posts about war heroes, Chechnya and whether attacks on Ireland are taken personally by Fionn!

NTM

[Fionn]

"It's rather obvious that I've touched more than a few of your nerves by the length of your counter-reply. "

No. When confronted with errors etc it is my training and temperament to list and elucidate them to whatever length is necessary to both convey their quantity and quality. Matt often jibes me about how I automatically and instantly create lists and reply with numbered points to his questions on certain topics.

"If I've now made you too indignant to respond to me in the future, that's regrettable, but it's your choice too."

Indeed.

"Well, thanks anyway for the past CM & historical information that you've provided specifically to me."

Think nothing of it. I do the same for anyone else who reads nothing which is not present into my statements.

[This message has been edited by Fionn (edited 08-17-2000).]

[Fionn]

Trooper,

You mean you aren't sick of hearing people assume that we in the South live in a place with bombs and bullets lying in the streets?

I hardly think there's anything wrong with taking exception to such an incorrect assumption and pointing out the reality. YMMV of course.

[Zamo]

Sometimes the tripe these bastards throw around gets so deep you need wings to stay above it. It's always disappointed me when I read complete and utter garbage from people who I'd like to respect on other issues, only to realize they are actually well read, but completely assinine morons.

As to the wreck of the Kursk. I will be really surprised if the get anybody out. I think they've all been fish food for days. Sad to say. May the rest in peace. I hope I'm wrong, but...Now they're saying the entire bow section fore of the tower is smashed. That's pretty catastrophic. I fear it shall prove far grimer business then early reports indicated.

Zamo

[Guest TOBRUK]

I, too, am an old submarine sailor. I wish to express my deep concern for the poor souls on this 'boat.'

Also; thanks to Grognerd-fog for starting this thread and expressing his sympathies.

-T

[Hamstersss]

Fionn,

I think you're cold-blooded when it comes to marshall matters. In that aspect I think you take people off-guard. The same guys who would throw a company of CM troops into near-certain death find it hard to reconcile such thinking with the real world. Hell, I'm one of them, but I realize that it's true.

Sherman said, "War is all hell," and he was right. He was the first modern general and he knew, as Shelby Foote says, that, "civilians are the backers-up of war" so he naturally took the war to them. Patton knew the cost of war and the fact that hard, bloody fighting brought quick resolution. These men got reputations for being cold-blooded SOBs, as well they should, but that doesn't make them wrong.

All those Russians had families, as did every man who ever died, in war and out. We Americans haven't experienced catastrophic loss like those in Europe and Asia have since the Civil War, so please understand that our social skill to deal with catastrophic loss has atrophied. I guess we take everything to heart and in that aspect we embody the worst quality of young men, naivette, but I think we make up for it with the best, that of idealism.

[Pvt. Ryan]

I haven't had time to read the entire thread so I don't know if this has been posted, but here is some more info on the rescue effort:

http://www.ragingbull.altavista.com/mboard/boards.cgi?board=GBLX&read=13822

------------------

Ow, my leg!

[Guest Pillar]

Something to keep in mind and to consider:

What would be going on right now - in the media and everywhere else - if this was an American Sub and those were American servicemen dying?

Thanks.

[dumbo]

Poor bastards.

Heres hoping that SOMEHOW they get out alive.

[Jeff Heidman]

Pillar, if that were an American sub in similar circumstances, the crew would either be out by now, or we would know that they were all dead.

Jeff Heidman

[Hamstersss]

Kinda like what happened during WWII with that cruiser (USS Indianapolis) and the sharks, eh? Immediate and efficient resolution and rescue...

[This message has been edited by Elijah Meeks (edited 08-17-2000).]

[Guest AlfieE]

Fionn - out of simple interest, what exactly is / was your training / temprement?

I too feel for the families of the sailors. I pity the poor devils who have will have to deal with the 'clean up' operation.