Lighting a candle for the "Kursk"

[Fionn]

AlfieE,

Medical training. Temperament: hmm, a belief that emotion has no place in the study of history, medical decisions or the nastier sides of life and that life isn't priceless. It IS precious but it isn't priceless and as such there are some prices too high to pay to sustain life.

Suffice it to say I've been within 12 feet of where a jumper landed ( as he landed... ruined my clothes with the splatter effect... Of course, 12 feet in the other direction and he'd have taken me with him (some of you undoubtedly wish he had) ), couple of hundred feet from a car crash which featured an impalation with broken spine on some nice pointy iron railings ( died later in hospital), an erased-face child... what tarmac does to a kid who skids along it face-first isn't pretty, and a funky old decapitation ( not wearing a seatbelt etc). Obviously, since I was so close I approached the scene before any ambulances etc got on the scene and sure got close enough to realise that there wasn't anything I could do for the five people involved. Those are the gruesome highlight, there's others. They obviously colour my perceptions and value systems.

Anyways, I'm quite sure serving soldiers and vets have seen worse but the simple point is that I refuse to get all worked up over other's deaths or my own. Obviously I haven't died yet but I've been close enough to know that there's nothing special about anyone's life and that you're best off not being too attached to life lest it become necessary to risk/lose it during the course of some "event". Sometimes you need to spend lives for the greater good and therefore I guess I just view lives as a valuable commodity but not a priceless one. Some things ARE worth the loss of hundreds if not thousands of lives, including my own if necessary ( well, at least I'm confident enough sitting here that I wouldn't chicken out and disgrace myself by saving myself at the cost of others... One can never tell for sure of course but I've detected no moral weakness when undergoing fairly sizable ( and dangerous) risks so, hopefully, if the situation arose I'd die without dishonouring myself. )

And, as I've said many times here and elsewhere, I DO believe most Western societies are aberrant insofar as they obsess about even small loss of life.

Now, having said all that I AM aware of how that viewpoint can come across as callous and uncaring. It isn't really, I just don't consider the loss of my own life or those of others to be as big a deal and as major a tragedy as media outlets would like them to be. Of course, I've been present at quite a few nasty deaths so that feeds into my belief that the West has, as a whole, lost touch with the nasty realities and fragility of life.

Obviously the loss of those sailor's lives is a tragedy for the families of the sailors but I guess basically I just don't subscribe to the current Western notions of how important life is/lives are. Fifty years ago I wouldn't have seemed halfway out of place .

Hmm, I guess that being around death a lot and seeing a couple of dozen people die in front of my eyes ( outside of the hospital setting) I've thought about this issue more than most. YMMV of course but I was asked for my own thoughts and gave them. I do not say they are the only correct thoughts on the issue and I don't seek to impose them on anyone.

I would welcome discussion if someone is interested. Polite and open discussion only obviously.

[Aussie Smith]

In a nutshell I'm afraid its probably too late to save the Russian sailors - politics politics - may their souls rest in peace.

Fionn - Spook - I think enough already - Guys your both right and lets face it - in these arguments misconstruing is par for the course and cyclic. I think most of us here respect both your views - lets just not let it spiral down into something which will (for some of us) remove the respect we have for both of you.

No matter the situation - no matter the political reality 118 poor souls have lost their lives - lets not forget that while we play war games - I for one do not glorify it.

Craig

[Fionn]

Aussie,

Rest assured that my last post to Spook was my last word on that topic unless he changes his position.

So, here's hoping for staying away from the whole "being told what I meant when I said something" gig .

[Aussie Smith]

Cheers Fionn

[Trooper]

Forgive me, YMMV means what exactly?

I never cease to be mildly amused that certain personages I encounter in the US ask me if it's "Safe" to travel around Ireland. I realise it's been a few years since I read it, but doesn't Northern Ireland have the lowest crime rate in Europe? That might have changed of late however.

The other popular one I'm asked, given my pro-gun leanings, is "Are you in the IRA?" to which I reply in the affirmative, and then explain the difference between the IRA and the PIRA.

I have never gotten pissed off or irritated by these questions, however. I merely look at this as a sad reflection of the quality of education and the media, happily inform them otherwise, and continue. As I say, more good-natured bemusement than annoyance.

Can we get back to the sub now please?

What was wrong with the idea of simply raising the tail end of the 500 foot sumbarine to the surface leaving the bow on the bottom 300 feet below?

NTM

[Spook]

Agreed too, Aussie. Carry on.

[Spook]

Trooper:

YMMV = "Your mileage may vary."

As to the concept of lifting just the back end of the Kursk with rear-only pontoons, that depends on at least two factors. One, it's uncertain as to how the sub hulk structure will react to being lifted on one end (and how much of the sub weight comes onto only one "pontoon loop" in terms of load distribution). And even if the back end could be lifted, it next becomes a matter of getting to the escape hatchways while the sub dangles near-vertical. I'm uncertain as to whether or not available rescue pods/subs can attach in this alignment. If, instead, the sub end is sufficiently floated so that one escape hatchway can clear the water's surface, then entry is simplified. Otherwise, you may only just be flooding the escape route.

[This message has been edited by Spook (edited 08-17-2000).]

[Seanachai]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fionn:

As for Seanachai's points... All I'll say is that through my reading and personal experience I have come to believe that man's natural state is one of "selfish inhumanity to others". Admittedly the world would be a better place if it all got "touchy-feely" and peace-loving BUT it isn't, it won't and to delude yourself that it is is merely to set yourself up to be easily manipulable. At least if you understand the realpolitik and sheer, unadulterated savagery of the world you have some degree of armour against naivete clouding your perceptions. It's not much but it is all one can do, unfortunately.

As for the "looking into Irish history".. You may have smiled but I personally didn't. I saw it as just another American who probably has almost no understanding of the situation taking a dig at me when I discuss civil wars elsewhere just because I happen to be Irish. I saw nothing funny in it.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Fionn, my apologies for appearing to make light of the 'Irish' remark. I was merely so taken aback that he would make this remark that I could only shake my head in wonder. I had to assume that he was either quite daft, or had no idea you were Irish (I see from a later post of his that I was right about the latter). Not all americans are completely clueless as to Ireland's history and situation, and please believe me when I say you'll never get any snide digs or arrogant ignorance from me on this score. My misplaced humour came from amazement, not from any desire to make light of something troubling.

As for your other remarks, I believe we are mostly in agreement. I do believe people can try to mitigate the horror, and most of those who do make a difference do it without guns and only through grinding work and self-sacrifice. Most of us aren't up to that challenge, and therefore it is most important that we not fall back on simple prejudices and starry-eyed myths concerning 'bad guys and good guys' in order not to make the work of destruction that much easier.

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After witnessing exceptional bravery from his Celtic mercenaries, Alexander the Great called them to him and asked if there was anything they feared. They told him nothing, except that the sky might fall on their heads.

[Zamo]

I removed a long disertation on morality and the worth of individual life here because I thought it belittled the original intent of this thread...

Zamo

[This message has been edited by Zamo (edited 08-17-2000).]

[Zamo]

Again here...

Z

[This message has been edited by Zamo (edited 08-17-2000).]

[Guest *Captain Foobar*]

OK....this discussion is tired.... Lets talk about the Kursk, as the title suggests?

[Mark IV]

Compare the Kursk and the recent Concorde crash. The difference to me, even though the casualties will probably be about the same, is the lingering helplessness of the Russian sailors' deaths. More horrible.

Psychologically, this to me is not offset by the fact that the Russians were military men, nor by the fact that I am a frequent flier. It's that I empathize with those who must reflect on the horror of the inevitable, more than with those who are snuffed in an instant. I would prefer the latter.

[This message has been edited by Mark IV (edited 08-17-2000).]

[Guest Der Unbekannte Jäger]

Not sure if you have heard but new camera footage from the rescue teams has revealed a large hole or "rip" on the starboard side of the vessel. The Russian Navy has said that chances are that most of the brave 118 men were most likely engulfed in the "flash" instant of the explossion and the resulting catastrophe.

At this point the British and Norwegian teams are still a fair ways away, and could not in all likely hood make it to the site before the weekend. At this point it is thought that most of the crew was killed in the first minutes of the accident. The submarine is also thought to now be slipping into the mud on the sea floor which may make recovery difficult in the case of the submarine being raised.

[Splinty]

First I want add my prayers for the poor crewman aboard Kursk,I doubt any of them are still alive but until there is confirmation one way or the other,I'll still hold some hope.

I'll bet that accident was a combination of several factors:

Poor Maintainance,

Semi or Poorly Trained Crewmembers

Incompetance

These are just my personal speculations

Again my thoughts are with the crew...

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Nicht Schiessen!!

[Seanachai]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mr. Johnson-<THC>-:

Seanachai, I won't disput anything you said. Most of it was right on. I am a little disapointed that you think my naivete is so sad. Not that you care. My whole line of thought on this matter is if you have to fight at least make the world a better place when your done. I don't know If that is Naivete, and I don't care. If that was the goal of the entire world, too make it better, then I would be a very happy man.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Spoken like a gentleman. All naivete makes me sad, because the people who hope for the best, get the worst, and often choose the most poorly. Understand that I don't wish to attack you, but the belief that going out and killing the bad people is useless, right from the start. My ex-fiancee (and make no mistake about the 'ex' she is still my best friend in the world; I went to her wedding, and have seldom known a greater moment of happiness), is a Quaker and a Lawyer. She's lived and worked in Salvador, Guatemala, the Gaza Strip, and Ethiopia. She's never picked up a weapon, but she's risked her life many, many times to try to make things better, including going out with family members of the disapearred in Salvador to recover their remains, as a 'western' observer, so as to keep the Army off their case. She's one of the people I admire and respect more than anyone I've ever known. And she's goofy as hell, sometimes you have to point out to her that she was voted 'most likely to be killed under the present circumstances'. Her response has always been an innocent grin, and shouting "what, what?". Work towards a better world, Mr. Johnson. It won't actually be achieved, but it certainly won't be achieved by 'killing the bad guys'.

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After witnessing exceptional bravery from his Celtic mercenaries, Alexander the Great called them to him and asked if there was anything they feared. They told him nothing, except that the sky might fall on their heads.

[patboivin]

I thought I should bump this thread, the info about the Kursk is coming in again.

http://asia.dailynews.yahoo.com/headlines/world/afp/article.html?s=asia/headlines/001027/world/afp/Russia_reveals_first_chilling_details_of_how_Kursk_sank.html

[Subvet]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fionn:

So, next question...

Will they raise it and recommission it?

I'd say yes since, after all, the Thresher was raised, renamed and put back into service and the Russians have always been even more sanguine than the West about such things.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thresher was never raised, renamed and put back into service. I assume you mean the boat that sank in '63, SSN-593, and not SS-200 which was also named Thresher. SSN-593 sank in very deep water and was crushed. It was in small pieces when finally located. SS-200 never sank and it had a pretty successful war time record. More can be learned about SS-200's war patrols at http://www.subnet.com/fleet/ss200.htm if anyone is interested. It's quite a story.