Lighting a candle for the "Kursk"

[Grognerd_Fogman]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DrD:

I'm confused about one thing -- I thought those subs had enough oxygen for months. Was the system damaged? Were they carrying less because it was a limited deployment? Also, the Russians are saying that the reactor is turned off. How could they go to sea without it? I imagine the auxilary diesel is insuficient for all but emergency use.

I'm afraid there are going to be many survivors, if any. I read in today's paper that the rescue craft can only hold 20 men so even if they hook up they would have to do it 5 more times to get everyone off.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There must have been something catastrophic that happened to cause them to secure the nuclear reactor. It could have also been shut down automatically and unable to be restarted. There are many safeguards in place which would do this to prevent nuclear mishaps. Without the reactor the only available power onboard would be the ships battery. This battery would only be able to provide very limited functioning of the subs minor systems (backup lights, emergency communications systems etc...) before needing a recharge after several hours of use. This battery can only be recharged from the normal power system (reactor running supplying the ships generators) or by the auxiliary diesel. The ships auxiliary diesel cannot be utilized in this case since the subs depth is too great. It can only be used at snorkel depth (periscope depth) as the diesel needs air to run. Under normal conditions a submarine makes breathable air by using electrically powered oxygen generators. The process is such: The ship pulls in seawater using pumps then cleans it by various processes thereby turning it into fresh water. This fresh water is now transferred to the oxygen generators which use a very volatile process (electrolysis) which strips the hydrogen from the water, thus leaving only the oxygen. This now pure oxygen is sent to air banks and stored for various ships uses. The remaining crew are now (if still alive) are breathing on air bank supplies with nothing being replenished. Another problem with the air is the way that it needs to be cleaned otherwise they'll get carbon dioxide/monoxide poisioning. Normally there are machines running (normal power) that help remove most of the "bad air" but they are not running now. They should have some type of backup for this which usually come in the form of chemical type kits which would provide a little help in emergency situations and would run out in little time.

An these are only some of the problems they may be facing. Severe cold (no heaters) and the ship could be slowly flooding without any way of securing it. Hope this helps a little...

[This message has been edited by Grognerd_Fogman (edited 08-16-2000).]

[Jeff Heidman]

Supposedly the Kursk was carrying 24 SS-N-19 Shipwreck ASMs. If that is the case, their reluctance to accept help from the two countries with the carriers those missiles were designed to destroy is understandable, if not rational.

The Shipwreck, (if reports are correct) is probably one of the most advanced and effective ASMs ever made by anyone. High mach combined with a terminal dive would make them very difficult to intercept, and their 750 kG warhead could take out a USN CVN with a single hit. Very bad news.

I do not think they will refloat and refit the ship simply because they do not have the funds to do so.

Jeff Heidman

[Gregory Deych]

There is some speculation that the batteries have been left (!) at the base. If that's the case, somebody should get keelhauled over it.

Oh, and Mr. Johnson? Those are the same freedom fighters who have been running kidnapping rings and beheading hostages, not to mention little things like invading Russia on their own homegrown jihad.

[Jarhead]

I was listing to a news program where a Former US Sub captain was taking questions. One of the more interesting comments was how this has happened to a US sub in 1920. He said they were able to blow the rear ballast tanks, and raise the sub’s aft end to the surface. At that point a hole was cut into the sub and the crew rescued. This was possible due to the relatively shallow water the sub was located in. He was speculating how the sub is 500 feet long, and they are in 350 feet of water. It is not inconceivable that this could be done with the Kursk. Grasping for straws. I pray for them all.

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Semper Fi.

[Thomas Norton]

Combatsim.com has posted an interesting news blub about this situation and this type Russian sub.

My brother was with VP-42 out of Iceland.

He flew the P-3 and hunted this type of sub.

They were like sharks, they would trial the American carrier groups. He told me they were hard to stay tracked because they could go deep and were very fast.

My prayers for those who wait.

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"The Legitimate object of war is a more perfect peace."

[Supertanker]

My heart goes out to the men on board the Kursk, and their families. I offer this prayer from the 1662 Book of Common Prayer, meant to be used during storms at sea. It seems frighteningly appropriate: "O most glorious and gracious Lord God, who dwellest in heaven, but beholdest all things below: Look down, we beseech thee, and hear us, calling out of the depth of misery, and out of the jaws of this death, which is ready now to swallow us up: Save, Lord, or else we perish. The living, the living, shalt praise thee. 0 send thy word of command to rebuke the raging winds, and the roaring sea; that we, being delivered from this distress, may live to serve thee, and to glorify thy Name all the days of our life. Hear, Lord, and save us, for the infinite merits of our blessed Saviour, thy Son, our Lord Jesus Christ. Amen."

Man, unfortunately, often has different plans. I recommend reading "Blind Man's Bluff," by Sherry Sontag and Christopher Drew. It convinced me that all countries lie as a matter of policy when it comes to submarine warfare. It might have been an explosion, it might have been a collision, or it might have been a giant sea monster. Regardless, admitting a vulnerability in a sub fleet isn't going to happen. The Kursk could have been carrying all nukes, but the official story will be that they left them all at home, and/or there is no radiation danger.

There was just a story a couple days ago that the US never recovered a lost hydrogen bomb from a B-52 that crashed near Iceland, despite telling the Icelanders that they did recover it. It is likely still down there somewhere. If lying to allies is SOP, I wouldn't expect much truth about this incident. Even if it was a collision with a US sub, it makes both sides look bad, and they both agree to keep it quiet. I agree with Fionn that the Russions may choose to let the submariners perish rather than let NATO rescue teams (which certainly would contain an intelligence analyst or two) near an Oscar.

[Grognerd_Fogman]

Absolutely unbelievabe!, CNN is just stating that Intelligence sources are now saying that the sub was heard (submarine sonar systems presumably IMO) to have 2 separate explosions and that no knocking on the hull was heard after the incident. That the crew probably perished during this time. They say that the Russian government was too hopeful? This is appalling if true. How could you not at least tell the truth to the people, irregardless of politics. Now I'm bummed...

[kverdon]

This really is a sad event. My heart goes out to those 116 trapped crewmen. The Russian reluctance to let the US assist may be two-fold. In the first-place there is the military security risk of letting US sub-types muck about with one of their premium subs. The OSCAR is the Russian's big hitter against US carrier groups and I suppose it is conceivable that they would rather let those 116 crewmen die than let us get near an Oscar. Life is cheaper in Russia. The other point is that the US resuce teams might not be able to do that much. When the US designed the DSRV program to rescue disabled sub crews, they offered the plans for the hatching mating mechanism to the Solviets who turned them down. Ergo, our DSRV's probably could not make with the Russian sub. All this is kind of ironic in light of the current joint US/Russian exercise being run to practise for a space station rescue opperation. Too bad we could not of had that kind of opperation earlier. Granted the Space station is not a front line weapons system.

From what I've read, The reactors have to be shut down give the attitude of the sub on the bottom. The Reactor's cooling system pulls water up from the bottom of the ship and with those vents burried in the muck of the ocean floor, they can't run the reactors. They had estimated that the crew would have another 48hours or so but given that the Russians have 0 rubbles for maint, the battery system may not be up to snuff.

keeping hope,

Kevin

[M Hofbauer]

easy, fogmen, there might still be hope. Don't EVER believe journalists.

Actually the latest news was that indeed no knocks were heard during the day since the morning but that again such signs have been noticed.

however - remember my first opening line! still, as long as there is still hope. I wonder why they don't do every damn thing possible. Airlift that scottish sub from Trondheim to a russian base near the incident, put it onto one of those russian high-sea monster-size hovercrafts, whatever, somebody DO something....the worst thign is witnessing with the feeling that not everything is done because of some moron bureaucrat...

[Grognerd_Fogman]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by kverdon:

From what I've read, The reactors have to be shut down give the attitude of the sub <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's most likely correct. Also I had stated earlier that the reactor may have been shut down automatically. One of the automatic reactor safeguards we had on both of the subs I was on, was that the reactor would shut down if the ship listed more than approx 40 - 45 degrees. There are of course many other situations which would cause an auto-shutdown (I.E scram).

[Von Fauster]

"Let's hope this has a happy ending. There are too many submarines from all nations on "Eternal Patrol".

Zamo"

Amen. I'll keep a candle in my heart lit until this is resolved, one way or the other. If kind, sincere wishes could raise men from the deep, those boys would be home now. Hold on fellas.

[Trooper]

Re configuration, you're quite right, the ASM launchers are indeed paired down the sides of the hull. Typhoons had the ballistic missiles afore the sail, Delta and Yankee in a superhousing abaft.

What galls me is the enronmentalists being concerned about possible nuclear matter when there are up to 100 men suffocating.

I may be a little out of touch here, but wasn't there a treaty signed a few years back to the extent that tactical nuclear weapons wouldn't be carried as standard aboard naval vessels?

NTM

[Fionn]

Kingfish,

You asked " Hmmm...correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the Oscars have the Missiles stowed either side of the sail?"

Well, in naval terminology you generally define things as either before or after the sail. Certainly the missile tubes are located port and starboard but the correct way of expressing that is to simply assume that people will know they are port and starboard.

If I said "beside the sail" then I would be talking about missile tubes DIRECTLY beside the sail ( not a good idea for all those nice, expensive periscopes).

Gotta love conventions eh?

Mr. Johnson said,

" Being commander by those psychos who are getting busy with Russian Mafia topless dancers instead of getting their boats in running order."

Methinks you read far too much propaganda and not enough proper, soberly reflective reporting.

" Too busy commiting atrocities in Chechny."

War is war. BTW Have you heard about the nice videotapes the Chechens sent to Russia before the Russians invaded of their "freedom fighters" beheading ethnic Russians who had committed no crime except not to be Muslim Chechens? Have you SEEN those lovely tapes as the head falls off the body and rolls to one side and the eyes blink a couple of times as the person dies? Yeah, a lovely bunch of people.

Remember, in war ALL sides commit atrocities. To single one out is to fall victim to propaganda.

"Yeah, If I was single I think I might sell everything I owned and buy a ticket for Turkey. Go help out those Freedom Fighters in the mountains."

And you know what, I wish people like you would. You'd get yourselves killed and then we wouldn't have to listen to ill-informed crap.

DrD,

It is unlikely that more than half the crew survived the initial explosion etc. Seems like the sail, the navigation room and most everything forward of the control rooms got flooded very quickly. It would appear that the back half of the sub is where any survivors are so:

1. There'd be few officers to control them.

2. There wouldn't be all that many immediate survivors in any case.

I'd be surprised if any rescue sub which arrived on the scene only minutes after the accident would have found even 50% survivors.

DUJ,

Trust me, if you wanted to rob a few tactical nukes from the Russians you could do it FAR more easily than by staging some sort of complicated underwater heist.

Also, the Soviet navy isn't that inept that it would have failed to notice the various submarines necessary to carry this sort of thing off. I'd be willing to bet my metaphorical house that no "underwater hollywood heist" occured.

Grognerd,

1. CNN isn't infallible ( much as it would like you to believe otherwise).

2. ALL governments like to cover up bad news .

Question...

Do you REALLY all believe that the US would let Soviets help in rescuing a stranded Ohio class? Let's face it, if forced to choose between saving the crew or letting the Soviets help the US would spin some story saying that the Russians couldn't help and would let the crew die and then raise a dead sub.

Hell, it'd be sheer incompetence if they let loose vital military secrets which could cost FAR more than 100something lives in time of war just to save 50 or so guys. It's not nice math but its realpolitik math.

In short, they aren't coming back and even if it were eminently possible to bring them back the desire to keep NATO intel and weapons analysts away simply outweighs the value of those lives.

Ps. I still think they'll raise it and recommission it. An Oscar is an expensive piece of machinery and not something to throw away just because of a few dozen deaths. At least that's how I think the Russian would see it.

[Fionn]

BTW, does anyone else find it a bit ironic/inappropriate that the thread is titled "light a candle". I mean, given that a goodly portion of the crew has or will die from asphyxiation and given that a candle burns precious oxygen isn't that a bit blackly ironic?

Perhaps, tie a yellow ribbon or something would be a bit more appropriate. I've waited to have someone else bring this up since bringing it up is, in itself, in bad taste but... no-one did so...

[Gregory Deych]

There are/used to be things called "oxygen candles" on subs, if I'm not mistaken.

[Kingfish]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>BTW, does anyone else find it a bit ironic/inappropriate that the thread is titled "light a candle".<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Inappropriate?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I've waited to have someone else bring this up since bringing it up is, in itself, in bad taste but... no-one did so...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So, If it's in bad taste...why bring it up?

[Grognerd_Fogman]

Fionn, I kinda thought of the candle thing after the fact. In retrospect a ribbon would be cool. An also I don't go by everything the reporters say but it's just that the Soviets in the past have not (IMO) held the safety and well being of there sailors in high regard. Like very poor reactor shielding on the Type I (HEN) nuclear class subs where significant amounts of radiation (poor shielding) caused the wearing of Oxygen Breathing Apparatus for the engineering types on a daily basis. These sailors had many health related complications afterwards. The poor damage control equipment/systems and training of such. Non payment of military pay etc etc... There motto has always been one of "quantity over quality". An since I have been in ASW for around 18 years previous, both in the military (submarine sonarman) and civilian (acoustic research ships), I have extensive knowledge of our ASW capabilities and intel sources. So with all that coupled together and the Soviets past behaviors, I feel that what they said on CNN is probably closer to the truth than we'll ever get out of the Russian government. Politics or no politics. I hope that my suspicions are not confirmed but I have snuffed my candle an tied the knot...

[Joe Shaw]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>BTW, does anyone else find it a bit ironic/inappropriate that the thread is titled "light a candle".<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Sad but true Fionn, though I know that ironic would apply in this case. If a candle can still be lit inside that Oscar it must be guttering by now.

And they just raised the H.L. Hunley a few days ago, another sub crew that died doing their duty.

Joe

[Supertanker]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fionn:

BTW, does anyone else find it a bit ironic/inappropriate that the thread is titled "light a candle". I mean, given that a goodly portion of the crew has or will die from asphyxiation and given that a candle burns precious oxygen isn't that a bit blackly ironic?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I always assumed this was a reference to a prayer candle or a memorial candle, not inappropriate at all. Lighting candles as a gesture of hope or faith is an ancient ritual.

[killmore]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mr. Johnson-<THC>-:

How is the media coverage of the Chechny war in other countries. I love the net cuz I can learn about this myself. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Boy are you misinformed! Why don't you start reading the other side reports too! The propaganda has you for a fool (and tool).

If you want to support them why not Basks, Corsicans, IRA, Quebecers, Columbians, "Shining Path" or some other group? What is the difference?

Afgans invented lots of new reasons to fight when Soviets left...

If there would be no oil in chechnia there would be no war. This is another oil war fueled by Mafia who want to sell weapons and regional leaders who promise millions to each and every one of their future subjects. All in the name of power.

Why don't you support for example serbs who are getting exterminated in Kosovo now? That subject is not popular in the media either.

No I am not supporting serbs, I just want to say there is no big difference.

Even in the 80's serbs have been systematically abused in kosovo. (Been there, seen that)Then they snapped (thanks to leaders who needed to secure their "popularity") and decided to eliminate Kosovians. Great: more genocide but now the other side is receiving. Years of hate (thanks to religious differences) make both side willing to commit attrocities/crimes.

Here is a good deed for you: Why don't you eliminate bullies from schools so that kids abused by them don't come back to kill them (and others).

[This message has been edited by killmore (edited 08-16-2000).]

[Mark IV]

There are already 5 nuclear subs on the sea bottom (Thresher among them- I remember the concern over Thresher when I was a kid). Lifted without permission from ABC News:

April 10, 1963: USS Thresher sinks off the New England coast with all 129 men aboard. It sits at a depth of 8,530 feet.

May 22, 1968: USS Scorpion sinks east of the Azores in the Atlantic Ocean with 99 men aboard. It sits at a depth of 9,860 feet.

April 11, 1970: Soviet November class submarine sinks in the Bay of Biscay outside Spain in the Atlantic Ocean. It sits at a depth of 15,354 feet.

Oct. 3, 1986: Soviet submarine catches fire and sinks east of Bermuda, killing three sailors. Nuclear warheads also reportedly broke open, spewing plutonium into the Atlantic. It sits at a depth of 16,404 feet.

April 7, 1989: Soviet submarine, the Komsomolets, catches fire and sinks off Norway, killing 42 of the 69 sailors aboard. It sits at a depth of 4,500 feet.

http://www.abcnews.go.com/sections/world/DailyNews/sub000816.html

[Dragoon44]

I want to add my prayers for the crew of the Kursk, even though for many years I served on the west side of the Iron Curtain, servicemen (and women!) are all patriots.

[Spook]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fionn:

BTW, does anyone else find it a bit ironic/inappropriate that the thread is titled "light a candle". I mean, given that a goodly portion of the crew has or will die from asphyxiation and given that a candle burns precious oxygen isn't that a bit blackly ironic?

Perhaps, tie a yellow ribbon or something would be a bit more appropriate. I've waited to have someone else bring this up since bringing it up is, in itself, in bad taste but... no-one did so...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Fionn:

I usually have a good deal of respect for the opinions you offer on military history and "realpolitik" as they tend to show a wide perspective.

But I think your quoted comments above are STARTING to get off-base, and regardless to your counterposts, we'll have to agree to disagree.

"Light a candle and offer a prayer" has been done extensively even in these recent times. Grognerd's initial post was to state in all essence, "My prayers are with you" to the trapped crewmen. Can't the essence be duly noted without a dissection of specific words? The only black irony to me is that dissection above.

And if we're going to get into defining "more appropriate procedures", then "tying a yellow ribbon" (or an orange one per Gulf War era) is actually more appropriate to giving homage to prisoners of war DURING a war. But if anyone chooses a yellow ribbon to offer concern for the sub crewmen, I will NOT begrudge such people, and duly note the spirit behind the offering.

Fionn, I am compelled to make note of this because the thought of being trapped in an enclosed space---like a sub under water---is something I am EXTREMELY phobic about. When it happens to someone else, and a poster here chooses to express concern and hope as a result, then all of us here should either join in the offering--WITHOUT a critique---or just remain silent.

Ed

[Gen. Sosaboski]

God bless you guys who served on subs. I don't think I could do it.

I hope the Kursk crew can be saved. I'm including them in my prayers.

Amen.

[KMHPaladin]

GrogFrog - you said that many engine-room crews were forced to wear OBAs because of a lack of radiation shielding. I'm no expert on radiation, but would that really help? Yes, it might prevent inhalation of radioactive particles that might wreak havoc in the lungs, but that's nothing compared to the damage that would be caused by the gamma rays hitting the sailors. What was the line from The Hunt for Red October - "Simply ventilating won't help; we've got to get the men off!" Sounds about right to me...

Like I said, I'm no physicist, but I don't think breathing bottled air would really do a darned thing for those sailors. Input is welcome...

Fionn, I would lighten up a bit. If he had said "lighting a candle in the Kursk" it might be in bad taste, but you can see that he meant it as an honorable gesture. I salute those sailors and wish any survivors all the luck they might need.

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KMHPaladin

KHarkins@voicenet.com

"We have the enemy surrounded. We are dug in and

have overwhelming numbers. But enemy airpower is

mauling us badly. We will have to withdraw."

-- Japanese infantry commander, SITREP, Burma