Disaster@work Posted November 15, 2000 Share Posted November 15, 2000 I was reading Aint it Cool News and I found a disturbing tidbit. The film version of Mark Bowden's excellent book on the ill-fated SEAL - Ranger - Delta mission to arrest Somali warlords in Mogadishu will be produced by Jerry Bruckheimer. Ugh. Ok, the news is not all bad because it will be directed by Ridley Scott. Well, I didn't see "GI Jane" so I'm not exactly sure how I feel about Scott's involvement. "Gladiator" was good, but schmaltzy near the end. "Blade Runner" is one of my all-time favs. Still, to think that a film version of "Blackhawk Down" might be sullied by Jerry ("Gone in 60 Seconds", "Armageddon", "Con Air", "The Rock") Bruckheimer really makes me hurl. Why, you may ask? Because every Bruckheimer movie is a rah rah jingoistic, golden sunset, slow-motion shot, MTV video that puts a gloss on events that might be taken seriously in the hands of a less hackneyed producer. Remember how cloying the down on earth scenes were in "Armageddon" (U.S. flag flying, children playing in the streets)? I shudder to think how "Blackhawk Down" might be filtered through that decrepit style. For those of you who haven't read "Blackhawk Down", it's a real fine piece of war reporting and gripping reading. Basically, a group of some of America's elite combat troops (a joint effort involving SEALs, Rangers and Delta) helicopter into the heart of Mogadishu to arrest some of Mohammad Farah Aidid's lieutenants. They arrest them, but as they are pulling out, they come under close assault by seemingly hundreds of irregulars, civilians, anyone who can pick up an AK47. What's worse is that eventually two helicopters are shot down and their crews must be rescued. This happens in the heart of a teeming, angry city where the roads are barely wide enough to fit a Humvee and it seems that no one knows which way to go. Now, I'm pretty sure Ridley Scott can handle the action elements. What I'm worried about, besides the MTV style that Bruckheimer loves, is their treatment of the ... "grey" ... events that happen during the battle. That is, U.S. troops saying "screw it" and gradually leaving behind their rules of combat and targetting crowds of civilians. Now, before you get antsy, this is explained in the book as situational. According to the book, seemingly the entire city wanted to get a piece of the Americans who they regarded as arrogant interlopers. The only way the Yanks could distinguish between civilian and militiaman was that one was armed and the other one didn't seem to be. But as the battle wore on, they saw more and more civilians pick up weapons, point out American positions or fearlessly shield militiamen as they advanced on the Americans. Soon the Americans were mowing down crowds of Somalis with their small arms and also with fire support from helicopter gunships. This included women and children. Yes, very ugly. My question then, is how will they treat this in the movie? According to IMDB, Mark Bowden has a writing credit so maybe it won't ALL go to pot. Anyway, enough vitriol. Here are some links you can chew over: IMDB link: http://us.imdb.com/Title?0265086 Book link on Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0871137380/o/qid=974249987 /sr=8-1/ref=aps_sr_b_1_3/104-0645848-9456713 ------------------ ---- To download my scenarios: go to http://www3.telus.net/pop_n_fresh/combatmiss/index.htm [This message has been edited by Disaster@work (edited 11-14-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disaster@work Posted November 15, 2000 Author Share Posted November 15, 2000 By the way, the Philadelphia Enquirer still has the Blackhawk Down excerpts on its website here: http://www.philly.com/packages/somalia/nov16/default16.asp ------------------ ---- To download my scenarios: go to http://www3.telus.net/pop_n_fresh/combatmiss/index.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beltfed Posted November 15, 2000 Share Posted November 15, 2000 Didn't Bruckheimer also do Topgun? He's also involved with a movie about Pearl Harbor due out next year. The trailers look beautiful. Lots of CGI aircraft. But when I found out who was producing I was bummed. It will look good at least. [This message has been edited by Beltfed (edited 11-14-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disaster@work Posted November 15, 2000 Author Share Posted November 15, 2000 see, I don't mind "Top Gun" all that much because it's not really based on any kind of reality. I much rather prefer what Quentin Tarantino said about the film: "One man's struggle to deal with his homosexuality". I peed my pants when I heard that quote. Mind you, some of the fellows described in the novel "Blackhawk Down" seemed pretty close to the gung ho body builder types in "Top Gun". I kept on thinking of the Val Kilmer character (Iceman) when Bowden described some of the Rangers. ------------------ ---- To download my scenarios: go to http://www3.telus.net/pop_n_fresh/combatmiss/index.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScoutPL Posted November 15, 2000 Share Posted November 15, 2000 Hey Disaster, you must be a SEAL fan huh? You make it sound like it was a SEAL op in your comments when they really only had a few "observer" types there who got involved when it hit the fan. I don't want to put down your comments or anything. I just want to inform the guys who dont know that it was an Army op in which 11(not sure if thats totally accurate) Rangers died and two Army SFer's were awarded the Medal of Honor Posthumously. Also, Hollywood makes movies for money, not for guys looking for realistic combat scenes. So you can take it from there. My bet is the somali casualties will be downplayed as will the conflict within the US JSOTF chain of command and between the D-Boys and the Rangers. Seen "Rules of Engagement"? Outstanding movie about marine extraction force mowing down women and children. So hollywoods not afraid to address the issue. I'm more interested in seeing how they'll get a hold of the aircraft and vehicles involved. That will almost certainly require DOD approval, and my bet is they'll be the ones that'll want to turn it into a recruiting film (AKA Topgun). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disaster Posted November 15, 2000 Share Posted November 15, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ScoutPL: Hey Disaster, you must be a SEAL fan huh? You make it sound like it was a SEAL op in your comments when they really only had a few "observer" types there who got involved when it hit the fan. I don't want to put down your comments or anything. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I don't know where you got any favoritism from what I posted. Oh, I guess you inferred from my placing of SEAL first in the joint description that I must like them better. Well, no. Anyone who read the book would know that the Rangers were the majority there and there were only a handful of SEALs along for the ride to give it the veneer of the joint-OP. No worries. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Also, Hollywood makes movies for money, not for guys looking for realistic combat scenes. So you can take it from there. My bet is the somali casualties will be downplayed as will the conflict within the US JSOTF chain of command and between the D-Boys and the Rangers. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I suspect that you are right. Anyway, yes Hollywood makes movies to make money but that doesn't mean that all movies must be made for fluffy entertainment. You can have a serious docudrama that respects the source. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Seen "Rules of Engagement"? Outstanding movie about marine extraction force mowing down women and children. So hollywoods not afraid to address the issue. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> No I haven't seen it. Friends said it was ok until they got to the courtroom stuff. Do you think the movie was written with "Blackhawk Down" in mind? <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> I'm more interested in seeing how they'll get a hold of the aircraft and vehicles involved. That will almost certainly require DOD approval, and my bet is they'll be the ones that'll want to turn it into a recruiting film (AKA Topgun).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> That's a really good point. They can't do EVERYTHING with CG Maybe there are other countries that have similar equipment?? ------------------ --- I am Legend Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScoutPL Posted November 15, 2000 Share Posted November 15, 2000 Blackwawks are strictly US govt issue. NOt sure you can get them on civilian market through any outlet. Militarized Hmmwv's are also strictly US issue though I guess you could get some Hummer's and dress them down. Hughes still makes the 500 model which the little bird is based on (actually a Vietnam era aircraft) so they could stick some card board cutouts on a civilian version of that to repliacte the real things (OH-6M's). It'll be interesting to watch, followed by hours and hours of critique and analysis on forums such as this I'm sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ACTOR Posted November 15, 2000 Share Posted November 15, 2000 ScoutPL - Just a little added info on the Hughes 500. Hughes hasn't made 500s since McDonnell Douglas bought that portion of Hughes. After the Boeing McDonnell Douglas merger, Boeing sold the commercial helo portion to a Turkish firm that now owns the 500/600 series of helos. [This message has been edited by ACTOR (edited 11-15-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lindan Posted November 15, 2000 Share Posted November 15, 2000 This board continues to amaze me... ------------------ ----------------------- Croda: "You hang out with a guy named "Warphead?" "Nuts!" " visit lindan.panzershark.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Los Posted November 15, 2000 Share Posted November 15, 2000 The SEALs had little to do with that series of operations other than have a few people attached to TF RANGER for various (liason) reasons. Also there were some SF tyopes involved too, but it was a DELTA-RANGER show. (PLus the 10th ID and the QRF). However that will suck if it turns out to be some watered down schmaltzy movie. I'm sure some women will find their way into the film as love interests. I won't be surprised if they change it around a bit. After all I'm sure it will offend the sensibilities of many if you have a film where hundreds+ of Africans are mown down by groups of buff-tanned Americans, regardless of the reality. But hey it might be good? Los Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disaster@work Posted November 15, 2000 Author Share Posted November 15, 2000 The women will probably have roles as the caring wives at home. There's an interesting story of one wife who evidently really didn't know that her hubby was in Delta. She thought he was in telecommunications which explained why he travelled so much and why he didn't have a shaved head like the other army guys. Another way they might change it around is to have more black soldiers. In the book, Bowden said that out of the whole expedition, there were only two black rangers. To Hollywood, this might be a touchy issue as they might get criticism for showing a conflict where largely white soldiers are gunning down hundreds of Africans. They'll probably get it both ways if they then insert more black characters. ------------------ ---- To download my scenarios: go to http://www3.telus.net/pop_n_fresh/combatmiss/index.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregory Deych Posted November 16, 2000 Share Posted November 16, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Disaster@work: The women will probably have roles as the caring wives at home. There's an interesting story of one wife who evidently really didn't know that her hubby was in Delta. She thought he was in telecommunications which explained why he travelled so much and why he didn't have a shaved head like the other army guys. Another way they might change it around is to have more black soldiers. In the book, Bowden said that out of the whole expedition, there were only two black rangers. To Hollywood, this might be a touchy issue as they might get criticism for showing a conflict where largely white soldiers are gunning down hundreds of Africans. They'll probably get it both ways if they then insert more black characters. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> No problem, we'll just insert some English ... umm... `mercenaries` who'll be fighting with the Somalis. Yeah, and they will be threatening to detonate a nerve gas bomb over Honolulu if Americans stop shooting down Iraqi flights over the no-fly zone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disaster@work Posted November 16, 2000 Author Share Posted November 16, 2000 ha ha. The last safe villains in Hollywood: the English. Seriously, it makes me wonder about another aspect: creating a villain. Hollywood certainly has a problem with villains who can't be personified. In "Blackhawk Down", it's the soldiers vs the situation. Maybe Hollywood will make Farrah Aidid take more of a role than he did. Will he personally dash over the rooftops with an RPG launcher? A slow motion showdown with the Ranger commander (played by Tommy Lee Jones / Bruce Willis / Kurt Russell)? ------------------ ---- To download my scenarios: go to http://www3.telus.net/pop_n_fresh/combatmiss/index.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Heidman Posted November 16, 2000 Share Posted November 16, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gregory Deych: No problem, we'll just insert some English ... umm... `mercenaries` who'll be fighting with the Somalis. Yeah, and they will be threatening to detonate a nerve gas bomb over Honolulu if Americans stop shooting down Iraqi flights over the no-fly zone.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> All these English complaining about the completely factual story in "The Patriot". Sure, there isn't any documentation of the church burning, but then, the evil Brit captain said that it would not be remembered, and he was right! Jeff Heidman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disaster@work Posted November 16, 2000 Author Share Posted November 16, 2000 heh, ok. Let's not fight old wars here about "The Patriot". Honestly, I think that audiences aren't as dumb or easily manipulated as Hollywood thinks. Today's audiences are fairly educated about media behaviour, bias and full of healthy cyncism. Douglas Rushkoff wrote a good book about the three audiences facing marketers today: traditional (people who would like to believe and trust), cynical (don't trust anything), and a third group who look at advertising messaging with a wry smile, know when they are manipulated, and choose to accept or reject. More and more are joining the third group. One of the finer movies about warfare last year was "Three Kings", which I thought really addressed the weird, post-modern atmosphere of the Gulf War (or at least our hip redrawing of our understanding of that conflict). ------------------ ---- To download my scenarios: go to http://www3.telus.net/pop_n_fresh/combatmiss/index.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffRaider Posted November 16, 2000 Share Posted November 16, 2000 Tom Sizemore is in it as LTC McKnight. Check it out here: http://www.upcomingmovies.com/blackhawkdown.html Very good info. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Col Deadmarsh Posted November 16, 2000 Share Posted November 16, 2000 Anything Bruckheimer gets his hands on turns into a piece of crap. ------------------ Youth is wasted on the young. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disaster@work Posted November 16, 2000 Author Share Posted November 16, 2000 There's a good interview with Mark Bowden in the official book site. Here's a good observation he makes that is directly relevant to the potential to Hollywoodize the true events: Q: There seems a sad and poignant irony between the cockiness of the soldiers at the beginning of the day and the later horror (which God knows they faced with exceptional bravery). Early in the book there is this description: "They held themselves to a higher standard than normal soldiers. With their buff bodies, distinct crewcuts . . . and their grunted 'hoo-ah' greeting, they saw themselves as the army at its gung-ho best." And then what follows is increasing confusion and terror. Was this an intended incongruity and do you see the book as moving from a fantasy of good intentions through hell into a new reality? Bowden: "Absolutely. That's just simply the truth.That's what happened to these guys and what happened to America. Clausewitz writes about how easy it is to get a group of men to charge an enemy, but after they've been shot at it becomes very very hard to motivate them. The reality of war is its terrible randomness. The reality of war is its terrible randomness. Unlike in Hollywood, the bravest and smartest and most decent get killed right alongside the cowardly and inept. There's nothing fair about it. Those who survive come through feeling lucky and guilty." In the book there were a lot of 'heroes' and a lot of guys who freaked out. The captain of the Rangers who was stuck there (forgot what his name was) was at times indecisive, and definitely overwhelmed by events. The chain of command broke down in many places. Will the film show this? I suppose the temptation for any screenwriter would be to pick villains, scapegoats. But as the quote above presents, real life isn't like that. [This message has been edited by Disaster@work (edited 11-15-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disaster@work Posted November 16, 2000 Author Share Posted November 16, 2000 oh yeah, here is the Bowden interview link: http://www.penguinputnam.com/blackhawkdown/author-interview.htm Official book site: http://www.penguinputnam.com/blackhawkdown/ ------------------ ---- To download my scenarios: go to http://www3.telus.net/pop_n_fresh/combatmiss/index.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Speedy Posted November 16, 2000 Share Posted November 16, 2000 I just checked out the upcoming movies site and noticed another cast member is Eric Bana, who for those that don't know played Chopper Reid in the great movie Chopper. Got me buggered who he's going to play? ------------------ Work is the curse of the drinking class. I have nothing else to say. Ya, quote that you rat bastards. -Meeks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slapdragon Posted November 16, 2000 Share Posted November 16, 2000 First, I hate to critique a film director when I have never done feature work, and I certainly have never worked as a producer, but the Bruckhiemer / Scott combination is magic not because they will come up with a great movie, but because a lot of people will go to their movies -- which often share a lowest common denominator big effects on small budgets / no character dialogue if possible effect. Scott hates actors and prefers them big, dumb and silent, while Bruckhiemer probably was chosen exactly because he wont mess with Scott. Scott was messed with once in his career, and he is pretty vocal about not ever having that happen again. He also LOVES his own movies, sits around the house watching them (kind of rare, most directors cannot stand to see the stuff once its in the can). So your chance of having Bruckheimer mess with the thing is low to non existence. "Gone in 60 Seconds", "Armageddon", "Con Air", and "The Rock"were all shake and bake thrillers targeted at the male summer audience and kids. They are also totally outside of Scott's experience. Expect the movie to keep Scott's critical opinions on world events alive, it will likely be a bit harsh on the Army and will probably show the Somali side, something he has done since his stint directing "Adam Adamant" episodes in the 1960s. Also, he totally does not buy into the "America Love it Right or Wrong" thing because he is a Brit by birth and heart. So, this may not be the type of action adventure movie people like despite Gladiator, but its success or failure will probably be all Ridly Scott's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
von Lucke Posted November 16, 2000 Share Posted November 16, 2000 I think the title of this thread says it all. On the other hand, maybe the addition of Scott as director will cancel out Bruckheimer as producer? Scott has done some fine work: the Duelists, Alien, Blade Runner, Thelma & Louise. And he's done some crap: 1492, Black Rain, Monkey Trouble, G.I. Jane. He's also been associated with a couple of big-money pictures lately that went nowhere (Superman, Hannibal). Another good point is that the Bruckheimer/Scott team would mean a big budget for equipment and locations, and some decent acting talent. On the other hand, Scott is a very cinematic director (he's a classicaly trained painter), and I dunno if his overtly grand-master influenced style of filming will work on what I see more as a gritty, semi-documentary. Somebody mentioned Three Kings: That's the sort of style I see "Blackhawk Down" needing --- not long, sumptiously lit shots of noble American fighting men struggling on in adversity. I was in the Army back then, and I know people who went to Mog --- there was nothing noble about it. PS: It's funny how people fix on who gets top billing for the Op: Being ex-Army, my reaction was the same as ScoutPL, "SEALs? All they (all 2 of 'em) did was ride around in a Hummer most of the time!" Yet an Air Force pal-o'-mine always goes on about what a great job the Para-Rescue guys did... Guess it's just a matter of what branch you favor... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disaster@work Posted November 16, 2000 Author Share Posted November 16, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Slapdragon: ...+snip+...the Bruckhiemer / Scott combination is magic not because they will come up with a great movie, but because a lot of people will go to their movies -- which often share a lowest common denominator big effects on small budgets / no character dialogue if possible effect. Scott hates actors and prefers them big, dumb and silent, while Bruckhiemer probably was chosen exactly because he wont mess with Scott. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> That's a good observation about Scott. His best work is intensely visual with actors as pieces in a set piece. I can't remember a Scott film where it was primarily actor driven. Even "The Duellists" which today might be done as a icon vs icon battle, was very subdued with Keith Carradine and Harvey Keitel being part of a structure rather than the leads. In "Blackhawk Down" the movie it will be more of an ensemble with a lot of faces. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> So your chance of having Bruckheimer mess with the thing is low to non existence. "Gone in 60 Seconds", "Armageddon", "Con Air", and "The Rock"were all shake and bake thrillers targeted at the male summer audience and kids. They are also totally outside of Scott's experience. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> "Gladiator" and his accepting to do "Hannibal" could signal a change for him. Also "White Squall" and "Black Rain" I would consider in the Bruckheimer mode. I am curious to see "GI Jane" though now that Scott is attached to "Blackhawk Down". I gave it a pass because I really can't take Demi Moore seriously as an actress. Anyone give us a capsule review? You show a great knowledge of Ridley Scott, by the way. Thanks! Now that I think of Bruckheimer I think that it's more that he picks certain directors who agree with his artistic and production strategy rather than influencing them. Simon West, Michael Bay and Tony Scott as far as I'm concerned are advertising flacks who have never made a meaningful work between them. I find their work indistinguishable from one another. ------------------ ---- To download my scenarios: go to http://www3.telus.net/pop_n_fresh/combatmiss/index.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disaster@work Posted November 16, 2000 Author Share Posted November 16, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by von Lucke: Scott has done some fine work: the Duelists, Alien, Blade Runner, Thelma & Louise. And he's done some crap: 1492, Black Rain, Monkey Trouble, G.I. Jane. He's also been associated with a couple of big-money pictures lately that went nowhere (Superman, Hannibal). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Never even heard of "Monkey Trouble". Anyway, I believe that "Hannibal" has already begun principal photography so that is going ahead. "Superman" seems to have been everyone's baby at one point. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Another good point is that the Bruckheimer/Scott team would mean a big budget for equipment and locations, and some decent acting talent.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Yes, there certainly would be a big budget. Also, both Bruckheimer and Scott probably have decent cred with the military which, as another poster pointed out, is totally necessary to pull this picture off. Not everyone can do as Stanley Kubrick did and film on a set and London neighbourhood with imported palm trees as he did in "Full Metal Jacket" and still have some believability. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>On the other hand, Scott is a very cinematic director (he's a classicaly trained painter), and I dunno if his overtly grand-master influenced style of filming will work on what I see more as a gritty, semi-documentary. Somebody mentioned Three Kings: That's the sort of style I see "Blackhawk Down" needing --- not long, sumptiously lit shots of noble American fighting men struggling on in adversity. I was in the Army back then, and I know people who went to Mog --- there was nothing noble about it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I do agree with you on this point. Scott likes full glossy productions. Even his action sequences are bit too staged, in my opinion (though the opening battle in "Gladiator" was the best part). In "Three Kings" David O. Russel had some excellent frenetic and inventive direction, especially in that first firefight between the adventurers and the Republican Guard that had the camera following the bullet paths from shooter to victim and back and forth. Yet, the action could be followed easily unlike some of the sequences in "Gladiator". That was wild. Ridley Scott does seem to be experimenting with video camera work so he might use this as a point of departure. ------------------ ---- To download my scenarios: go to http://www3.telus.net/pop_n_fresh/combatmiss/index.htm [This message has been edited by Disaster@work (edited 11-16-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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