Possible bug with the M18 Recoiless rifles

[CHEqTRO]

Hello all. I recently got the Downfall module and did set up a quick fire range to test how capable the M18s were at longer ranges, just out of curiosity. The fire range is very simple, 7 panthers set up directly in front of the M18 rifles, at increasing distances (50 meters, 100, 200, 500 1000 etc). The first turn (playing hotseat obviously),  I gave everyone an small target arc so they dont start shooting at wherever unit they spot first, and in the second turn I manually give a target command to their respective panthers at the front. However, the recoiless teams, instead of firing to the unit to their front, as I had told them to do with the target command, decide to ignore it and target the Panthers at their sides.

Being curious at this behaviour I restart the test, and this time instead of giving them a direct fire command, I just give them a slim target arc so only the panther in front can be targeted. And surprise, none of the teams open fire, they just stay still, staring the panthers until they get destroyed by themselves, I suppose. At this moment, i suspect that this problem is tied to where the unit is facing, so to check it real quick, I gave a unit a small arc, and move back and forth so its back in the same place it was set up, but its facing is now is 90 degrees to the tank. I gave another target arc as before so their panther in front can be fired, and nothing, they still refuse to fire.

Finally i just allow them to fire to their tank at their flanks and they open up fire no problem, so the only conclusion I can get is that, for some bizarre reason, the M18 cannot fire to their front. Anyone can replicate this?

AA M18 VS Panther.btt

Edit: Here is the Firing range i set up to test this, in case anyone wants to try: 

 

PD: Just realized that i post this in the general forum instead that in the proper FB one. Ups...

Edited January 26 by CHEqTRO

[Silentkilarz]

15 minutes ago, CHEqTRO said:

 However, the recoiless teams, instead of firing to the unit to their front, as I had told them to do with the target command, decide to ignore it and target the Panthers at their sides.

 

Finally i just allow them to fire to their tank at their flanks and they open up fire no problem, so the only conclusion I can get is that, for some bizarre reason, the M18 cannot fire to their front. Anyone can replicate this?

 

Sounds like the tacAI is overriding your commands and knows that its best chance is to hit the flanks.

[CHEqTRO]

Yeah, after doing some more tests, switching the panthers for other vehicles they did indeed start firing without issue, so I guess it has to be that 

[Anthony P.]

But refusing to fire at the frontal armour of the Panthers doesn't sound very reasonable or realistic though?

[CHEqTRO]

Well, i would not know what to say, even when firing at the sides of the Panther they rarely achieved a Penetration, and if they did, the post penetration damage tended to be laughable. What i thought about testing, is seeing if this behaviour si repited with bigger cats, such as the King Tiger. Maybe they just have a problem with the Panthers xdd

Edit: So it seems that at least they are consistent with their decision to not open fire, they would open fire at PzIV at the front, but not at Tigers, King Tigers or Jagdtigers, so there is that.

Edited January 26 by CHEqTRO

[Ultradave]

8 minutes ago, Anthony P. said:

But refusing to fire at the frontal armour of the Panthers doesn't sound very reasonable or realistic though?

It does, actually, if they know it's futile and you have limited shots. Fast forward to Cold War era and we would never take a frontal shot on a Soviet tank with a LAW. No point. You'll just make them angry. You would always wait until you had a side or rear shot and then hope to disable them (with a LAW the best you could hope for is blowing off a bogie wheel or jamming the tracks.)

If they were about to run you over, then I suppose, yes, shoot. Anything to divert them at that point. 

Dave

[Anthony P.]

3 hours ago, Ultradave said:

It does, actually, if they know it's futile and you have limited shots. Fast forward to Cold War era and we would never take a frontal shot on a Soviet tank with a LAW. No point. You'll just make them angry. You would always wait until you had a side or rear shot and then hope to disable them (with a LAW the best you could hope for is blowing off a bogie wheel or jamming the tracks.)

I'm kinda putting it into a WW2 and CM context though: AFAIK, even anti tank rifles won't opt out of engaging King Tigers from the front, so it seems out of order for the AI not to. Whether it's a WW2 reasoning à la "GIs/Tommies/Ivans back then wouldn't know for sure if their handheld AT could take Tank X on frontally or not" or it's a "well, it might get lucky, destroy sights, etc." reasoning I don't know.

Edit: Must've misremembered, bazooka teams don't willingly engage Panthers frontally. Both them and M18 teams need a direct fire order to do so (man oh man, the bazooka really isn't too accurate compared to recoilless rifles!).

Even when it comes to CMSF, the AI very much does fire LAWs/LASMs at tanks from the front, which is noticeable since it's my impression that modern LAW/LASMs are strictly HE?

Edited January 26 by Anthony P.

[Centurian52]

On 1/26/2024 at 4:30 AM, Ultradave said:

Fast forward to Cold War era and we would never take a frontal shot on a Soviet tank with a LAW. No point. You'll just make them angry.

There's little point in taking a frontal shot at a T-64 or T-72 with a LAW (unless you get lucky and hit the lower front plate or the weak point in the upper front plate for the driver's hatch/optics). But a LAW can easily penetrate the front of a T-55 or T-62. So I suppose it will depend on when in the Cold War era were talking, and what kind of Soviet tanks you expect to face.