Gun damage on SU-100

[Wrath of Dagon]

I'm playing Rites of Spring CMFR as Soviets against AI (latest update). Half way through battle 4 of my SU-100's have damaged guns. It's hard to believe the gun mantlet would be designed to deflect the shell into the gun! Something seems to be wrong with the model, perhaps the gun mantlet is convex instead of concave. Also one of the SU-100's was knocked out immediately, perhaps a lucky shot, but another one was abandoned by the crew and the Panzer IV pumped round after round into it but never destroyed it, seems like the armor in incredibly good   (the gun was damaged of course).

[Vacillator]

Haven't played this one but will do.

On a more general note I seem to get a lot of guns disabled, mostly on the German side but that might be just what I've been playing.  I think you may have a point...

[Vergeltungswaffe]

Gun damage can mean a whole lot of things that don't involve any damage to the gun itself.

Anything that makes it impossible to lay or fire the gun is an m-kill.

[wolfgang500]

1 hour ago, Vergeltungswaffe said:

Gun damage can mean a whole lot of things that don't involve any damage to the gun itself.

Anything that makes it impossible to lay or fire the gun is an m-kill.

That´s true, mostly the recoil mechanism might be damaged by a hit on the mantlet. I did not play that specific scenario yet, but I too expierienced a lot of gun failures, too many for my taste. I remember I once had five Tigers, but every single one ended up with damaged guns, sometimes even without a hit on the mantlet. The gun mechanic would have been shot! This issue might well be a topic for a future patch!

[chuckdyke]

4 minutes ago, wolfgang500 said:

This issue might well be a topic for a future patch!

Yes Churchill 6pdr vs Jagdpanther, Jagdpanther came out 2nd best. A destroyed muzzle break and the reason he reversed. In CM don't assume that a better gun combined with excellent armor will work in your favor.

[PEB14]

1 hour ago, chuckdyke said:

Yes Churchill 6pdr vs Jagdpanther, Jagdpanther came out 2nd best. A destroyed muzzle break and the reason he reversed. In CM don't assume that a better gun combined with excellent armor will work in your favor.

Well, given the choice, I think I'd better take the better gun combined with excellent armor though…

[Brille]

The topic of overocurances of damaged guns is as old as Cmx2. 

 

But I cannot really say if that's the case or not since I don't know how often it happened in the actual war. Sometimes though the frequency in which it happens seems to high. In one of my recent games 2 of my Brummbaers got gunkilled with the second shot of a 57mm ZIS2 gun. 

 

I guess so too that any kind of self propelled gun/turret less tank are more prone to that occurance because of the center aiming method of the tac ai. 

The gun is the cenre point here and has a higher chance to get hit in that case. 

Edited October 1, 2023 by Brille

[Wrath of Dagon]

18 hours ago, Vergeltungswaffe said:

Gun damage can mean a whole lot of things that don't involve any damage to the gun itself.

Anything that makes it impossible to lay or fire the gun is an m-kill.

Pretty fragile mantlet then. I don't believe it was penetrated since no one in the crew was injured or even suppressed in 3 cases. Also I noticed coax machine gun was out in every case as well, so even useless against infantry.

Btw, weapon controls whatever that means are at 100% in all 4 cases.

Edited October 1, 2023 by Wrath of Dagon

[PEB14]

6 hours ago, Wrath of Dagon said:

Btw, weapon controls whatever that means are at 100% in all 4 cases.

I guess "wpn controls" means "weapons control"?

I'm really wondering was this does mean. Apparently, when "wpn control" no weapon can be used. Honestly I don't see what system forbids to use both main guns, coax or bow MG and AA MG???

[Brille]

8 hours ago, Wrath of Dagon said:

Pretty fragile mantlet then. I don't believe it was penetrated since no one in the crew was injured or even suppressed in 3 cases. Also I noticed coax machine gun was out in every case as well, so even useless against infantry.

Btw, weapon controls whatever that means are at 100% in all 4 cases.

Are you still talking about the SU100? 

There should be no coaxial machine gun available as with all the soviet assault guns and tank hunters. 

If I remember correctly they don't even have an aa mg on top. 

Regardless of that, do you see any hit decals on your tanks? You should clearly see whether it was a penetration (black hole) or just a deflection (Grey dent). And was it on the mantle or the gun itself? 

 

1 hour ago, PEB14 said:

 

I'm really wondering was this does mean. Apparently, when "wpn control" no weapon can be used. Honestly I don't see what system forbids to use both main guns, coax or bow MG and AA MG???

Weapon controls should refer to the controls of the main armament of the vehicle/tank. 

So that is the main gun and it's ability (or if destroyed : disability) to move it up & down or left & right.

You could say it is the same as if the gun itself gets knocked out... You can't use it anymore. 

Bow and AA Machine guns are usually on a more simple mounting and are not affected. 

The coaxial MG however should also not be able to fire if the weapon controls are out of action since it is well... coaxial to the gun. If only the gun is destroyed, then you still should be able to use that MG (if not destroyed as well). 

 

[A Canadian Cat]

9 hours ago, PEB14 said:

I guess "wpn controls" means "weapons control"?

I'm really wondering was this does mean. Apparently, when "wpn control" no weapon can be used. Honestly I don't see what system forbids to use both main guns, coax or bow MG and AA MG???

There is some abstraction going on with damage. Your vehicles can have each individual gun or MG damaged and therefore inoperable or you can have the weapons controls damaged and therefore none of your guns or MGs will operate.

[PEB14]

2 hours ago, IanL said:

There is some abstraction going on with damage. Your vehicles can have each individual gun or MG damaged and therefore inoperable or you can have the weapons controls damaged and therefore none of your guns or MGs will operate.

In my latest case it was an Achilles wpn controls which went down. I've never been able to fire the main gun nor the AA MG after that.

But I never was able to fire an Achilles AAMG even before wpn controls was knocked out, so that might not be the issue...

[Vacillator]

9 minutes ago, PEB14 said:

I never was able to fire an Achilles AAMG

Just the AAMG on the Achilles (and other tanks/TDs) I assume?

I've had better luck with AA vehicles like the Wirbelwind - in fact I have one in a PBEM now which was doing a bit of 'ground clearance' until a P47 showed up, after which it fired into the sky for a while, hopefully putting off the dastardly American pilot.  He did miss my Tiger IIs, but hit a few unfortunate Sturmgrenadiers instead.

[Wrath of Dagon]

10 hours ago, Brille said:

Are you still talking about the SU100? 

There should be no coaxial machine gun available as with all the soviet assault guns and tank hunters. 

If I remember correctly they don't even have an aa mg on top. 

Regardless of that, do you see any hit decals on your tanks? You should clearly see whether it was a penetration (black hole) or just a deflection (Grey dent). And was it on the mantle or the gun itself? 

 

Weapon controls should refer to the controls of the main armament of the vehicle/tank. 

So that is the main gun and it's ability (or if destroyed : disability) to move it up & down or left & right.

You could say it is the same as if the gun itself gets knocked out... You can't use it anymore. 

Bow and AA Machine guns are usually on a more simple mounting and are not affected. 

The coaxial MG however should also not be able to fire if the weapon controls are out of action since it is well... coaxial to the gun. If only the gun is destroyed, then you still should be able to use that MG (if not destroyed as well). 

 

The situation is a bit unclear on the coax, some online sources say it had a 7.62 mm DT, which would make sense to get range on a tank destroyer. You can also see a hole on the left on the mantlet which seems like it's for a coax. Each SU also carries 710 rounds of 7.62 mm x 25, which however is wrong for DT since it's pistol ammo, why it would need that many pistol rounds is a mystery. The decals are also a bit ambiguous, two mantlets do have impacts close to the gun with a small hole besides them, meaning may be partial penetration? The other only has an impact far away on front hull. The knocked out one I don't see any impacts at all. Btw, I meant that weapon controls on all were completely undamaged, perhaps that was unclear.

[Brille]

3 hours ago, Wrath of Dagon said:

The situation is a bit unclear on the coax, some online sources say it had a 7.62 mm DT, which would make sense to get range on a tank destroyer.

I might be totally wrong at this but as far as I know the only tankhunter aka assault gun that got a proper coaxial machine gun (in it´s definition) in this timeframe were the later variants of the STUG III. And I don´t mean the remote controlled MG on the roof of the vehicle. If you look closely at the later variants: There is a hole in the so called "Saukopfblende". That is not for the optics. The optics are via periscope on the roof also.

Other than that were some sort of bow mg or more simple mounting. So I´ve read that for example the SU76 got a DP27 with them. This however was more for dismounted patrols or to cover the tank once halted. It could be mounted on the vehicle itself I belief but not in a way that it would deserve the name "coaxial". I think it is the same what you think of the SU 100. They may have an mg on board but it is not meant or usuable for this kind of battlefield that is displayed in CM.

3 hours ago, Wrath of Dagon said:

You can also see a hole on the left on the mantlet which seems like it's for a coax.

That is for the gun optics.

 

If you look at the displayed status of the unit (in CM) at the wrench symbol, you can see that there is no coaxial mg listed. If it is not listed, it isn´t there at all. A destroyed modul would be highlighted with a red "x".

3 hours ago, Wrath of Dagon said:

Each SU also carries 710 rounds of 7.62 mm x 25, which however is wrong for DT since it's pistol ammo, why it would need that many pistol rounds is a mystery.

The soviets also use this ammo for their sub machine guns of which they have often 2 in a tank crew. So there is your answer to the high ammo capacity. Those soviet SMG drain a lot of ammo just for firing for a few seconds.

 

4 hours ago, PEB14 said:

In my latest case it was an Achilles wpn controls which went down. I've never been able to fire the main gun nor the AA MG after that.

But I never was able to fire an Achilles AAMG even before wpn controls was knocked out, so that might not be the issue...

You will find not that many instances in where the AA MG will be of good use. Maybe if some enemies try to sneak onto your back you will see it fire. It is faced backwards and in CM no pixeltrooper is brave enough to stand on the engine deck to fire it to the front.

Edited October 2, 2023 by Brille

[PEB14]

13 hours ago, Brille said:

You will find not that many instances in where the AA MG will be of good use. Maybe if some enemies try to sneak onto your back you will see it fire. It is faced backwards and in CM no pixeltrooper is brave enough to stand on the engine deck to fire it to the front.

Forward, backward... I think I never saw any of my Pixeltruppen fire an AA MG...

[Brille]

1 hour ago, PEB14 said:

Forward, backward... I think I never saw any of my Pixeltruppen fire an AA MG...

The Shermans have multiple configurations of mg placement but not all are that practical to use in CM.

The one that is directly placed in front of the commanders cupola would be the best in that regard. The placement in front of the loaders hatch is also not that bad either but the loader will only crew these if he has not other things to do...so it could be rare to see him up there.

The mg configuration that is more on the middle of the roof would be the worst to be used for ground work, as you would need to leave the vehicle to operate it properly.

Happened in real life from time to time but is not modeled in CM.

The M10/M18 Hellcat/M36 would be similar cases. The crew may get on the mg if they are attacked by infantry from the back but they´ll not go on the engine deck to turn it to the front.

I guess other nations than the USA don´t bother that much with aa mg on their tanks...at least in WW2.

 

I remember back in CMx1 aa mg had a bit more freedom: As soon as you "opened up" the crew it was instant 360° aa protection, including ground targets. Sometimes as the US you wouldn´t need to bother to get extra aa canons with you as your tanks would already provide that role...and not to bad.

 

[A Canadian Cat]

2 hours ago, PEB14 said:

Forward, backward... I think I never saw any of my Pixeltruppen fire an AA MG...

Me neither so I created a scenario and check to see if it would happen:

Spoiler alert - the crew do fire the rear MG at targets on the ground.

[Vacillator]

4 hours ago, IanL said:

Spoiler alert - the crew do fire the rear MG at targets on the ground.

At the request of our dear friend @kohlenklau I did a similar trial of 'does the rear turret MG on an IS1 or IS2 ever fire?'.  The answer was yes, it does - but it has limited visibility. 

There's a thread somewhere which I can find if anyone wants it, but this is perhaps beyond the scope of the current conversation.

[A Canadian Cat]

2 hours ago, Vacillator said:

There's a thread somewhere which I can find if anyone wants it

This one?

 

[Vacillator]

6 minutes ago, IanL said:

This one?

Looks like it Ian, thanks.  That takes me back .  Not quite on subject for this thread but interesting at the time.

I was just starting to question whether the IS2 retained the rear MG, but I think they did...

[PEB14]

17 hours ago, Brille said:

The Shermans have multiple configurations of mg placement but not all are that practical to use in CM.

The one that is directly placed in front of the commanders cupola would be the best in that regard. The placement in front of the loaders hatch is also not that bad either but the loader will only crew these if he has not other things to do...so it could be rare to see him up there.

The mg configuration that is more on the middle of the roof would be the worst to be used for ground work, as you would need to leave the vehicle to operate it properly.

Happened in real life from time to time but is not modeled in CM.

The M10/M18 Hellcat/M36 would be similar cases. The crew may get on the mg if they are attacked by infantry from the back but they´ll not go on the engine deck to turn it to the front.

I guess other nations than the USA don´t bother that much with aa mg on their tanks...at least in WW2.

 

I remember back in CMx1 aa mg had a bit more freedom: As soon as you "opened up" the crew it was instant 360° aa protection, including ground targets. Sometimes as the US you wouldn´t need to bother to get extra aa canons with you as your tanks would already provide that role...and not to bad.

 

More boring is the fact that I don't manage to use cal.50 on halftracks either... No problem to fire with the cal.30, but the second MG in some halftrack (or on a M16 AA halftrack), they seem to never use it...

[PEB14]

16 hours ago, IanL said:

Me neither so I created a scenario and check to see if it would happen:

Spoiler alert - the crew do fire the rear MG at targets on the ground.

Interesting. So for the M10 it means that it can fire, but on its own - no way to order it to fire?!

[chuckdyke]

In FB there are scenarios when you order 'Light' the 76mm Sherman uses the loader to use the .50 Cal but the 75mm Sherman doesn't. 

[Brille]

3 hours ago, PEB14 said:

More boring is the fact that I don't manage to use cal.50 on halftracks either... No problem to fire with the cal.30, but the second MG in some halftrack (or on a M16 AA halftrack), they seem to never use it...

So you mean the rear facing MG there too? 

It is the same as with the M10: they are able to use it but only to the rear. So if infantry pops up at the back they will fire at them if a crewmember or passenger is available for it of course.

You can somewhat force them to use it when you drive them backwards to the enemy. But that leads to odd tac ai behavior where they try to turn around so that their front faces to your opponent as soon as one pops up. 

Target light and target commands are mostly for the main gun(s), so even if they may have no ammo in it left they will arrange the vehicle so that it could fire, regardless of the back facing MG (which probably even has ammo) .