Going SICK with MG's

[dumbo]

Tobruk:

Actually I live in SOuthern california but I am a Brit so I still get weirded out. It helps that my best freind is a hunter/gun nut so I understand that gun owners are not nessecarily insane.

Anyways I dont wanna get on a gun control debate (nothings more dull than poltics).

Cheers man.

_dumbo

[Guest Gunnerdream]

Hey, Eridani, I'm an avid paintballer!

Theres a place in Indianapolis called "Dark Armies" that is housed inside a HUGE former factory building. The whole place has been built up to look like some post apacolyptic scene with overturned, crashed cars, fog machines, strobe lights and incredibly LOUD rock and roll music! Went there a couple of times for parties and it is like an hour-long roller-coaster ride, definitely one of the most exciting times I've ever had. Also a very intense physical workout. Nothing I've played outdoors even comes remotely close.

Gunnerdream...floating down through the clouds

[Lindan]

A veteran from my home village was the

mg-gunner in his squad fighting on the east front. He NEVER told anything about the things happening there. On a rare exception he told my uncle that he used his mg most of the time like a sniper. If something moved he killed it with a very short burst. He claims his ability to hit what he shot at in "normal" conditions were about 90%.

<hr>

sorry, not too much humour in this post...

[Herr Oberst]

Gunner, you obviously haven't paintballed with the right crowd.

In central Virginia is a paintball place that runs scenarios like CE. Both teams start outside "town" and have to take objectives, or the "over-hill-and-dale" scenario where you'll cover a good mile all told. More like re-enactment than a simple paintball shoot-fest.

Pity we got kicked out once for taking to the trees in our assault one time.

Another time, two rabbits and six snipers with mutual cover massacred the Blue team.

Rabbit makes contact and runs back through the trap, we spring it, take out 2 Blues.

They regroup, we fall back. They try to flank left, find 2 more snipers in overwatch, we take out 2 more Blues.

We vacate that position, one sniper becoming rabbit #2. By now, they're pissed. A long rope and a weight makes a great decoy in the brush.

They pop-up to take out the "person" in the bushes, and get enfiladed. Scratch 2 more Blues. Now 8 on 2 and the drive begins towards the two snipers who are still laying low.

Ahh victory, thy taste is sweet still.

Especially since the Blues were long on attitude, but short on performance.

Maybe it helped that our team of 8 had 6 hardcore wargamers...

[Kitty]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mark IV:

There is a gun store in Las Vegas, very near the airport on Tropicana, which allows rental fire of full-auto toys (note to rest of world: this means you can shoot THEIR guns on THEIR range using YOUR ammo. You may not rent a machine-gun and leave the premises, or rob a bank, and return it).

Last visit they had an MP40, Thompson, Sten, HK MP5, and something else I forget now (maybe a grease gun or an Uzi). Sorry, nothing belt-fed. Shooting these things is expensive- the rental is reasonable (about $30 USD), but the ammo goes quick. To me there were only 2 choices in that list and they were both Deutsches Erzeugnis.

This arrangement is legal, safe, and fun. Even the novice will quickly learn why short bursts are the norm for shoulder-fired weapons.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I know this thread is really old, but I had to respond to it 'cause Mark IV is the first person other than myself I've ever met, not that I've met him for reals, that's been there! =D My dad took me there when I was about 19 or so (he always wanted a boy and never got one so he did whatever he could to try to pretend I was one hehe). We rented the MP5 although I wanted the MP-40. It was SOOOOOOO fun!!! You're right though, you learn very quickly that long bursts aren't effective. Only the first three rounds or so from a long burst hit the target and the rest go high and right. 'k, that's all. Bye now! =)

Kitty =^..^=

[Supertanker]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kitty:

I know this thread is really old, but I had to respond to it 'cause Mark IV is the first person other than myself I've ever met, not that I've met him for reals, that's been there<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've been there too, on my 21st birthday Trip of Vice . We figured automatic weapons were a good addition to the booze and gambling (though not at the same time). Of course, we stayed at the Dunes, which was where Bellagio now stands (IIRC) so that should tell you it has been a little while.

Better than that, there was a shop in Phoenix (this was about 1985, dunno if they are still around) that would take you out to a desert shooting area they owned, and they would have the guns chained to their truck. That way, you could have a little more freedom than on a range, and the guns remained in their control, so no violation of their federal Class III license. Either of these systems provides an important educational experience about the use of automatic weapons.

Oh, man, that reminds me of the time I just barely missed out on MP5 training with a client's police department. It was a last minute thing to let us lawyers come along (since part of our job would be defending suits alleging wrongful use of said MP5s). No, we weren't the targets. I had been in court, and if the judge had stopped talking just a couple minutes earlier I could have made it back to the office in time to leave.

[Guest barrold713]

Nevermind...the question I had about the probability of less experienced mg crews to expend ammo quicker was answered on page 77 of the manual.

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"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb discussing what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote"

- Ben Franklin

[tss]

An old thread, but I seem to have missed it the first time

BTS wrote:

I think there are some extreme cases where the gunner would be willing to go all out. Shooting from a bunker at waves of charging infantry is about the only one I can think of.

Battle of Lake Suvanto on Christmas 1939. One of the most hare-brained military operations of the whole war. The Soviet 4th Division attacked over a frozen lake that wasn't strong enough to carry heavy weapons. Two Finnish MG bunkers fired for 24 hours almost as fast as ammo could be carried to them.

One Finn who fought in the counter attack batallion visited one of the bunkers after the last Soviets were thrown back to ice. He later told that he had to stand knee-deep in empty cartridges. One water-cooled Maxim MG had been destroyed by excessive firing.

The Soviet division lost about 1500 men KIA and unknown amount of WIA. Total Finnish losses were few dozens (including wounded).

- Tommi

[Lee]

Now, you just know I had to comment on this.

Kitty, you have discovered one of the great truths of life, shooting

machineguns is FUN, really fun. Good clean fun that lots

of folks around the country enjoy all the time. And not just here

in the U.S., there are some other cool countries, like Finland

(just ask Tommi ), where you can own machineguns, too.

Dumbo, you most likely get "weirded out" because you have been

conditioned to have some irrational fear/uneasiness about guns by your

kindly government. I actually know a guy from England, nice fellow,

he's in the computer games industry, that told me he once went over

a friend's house to visit. This friend happened to own a revolver

handgun and he brought it out to show him. This chap from England

had been so thoroughly conditioned to not like guns that he actually

got sick to the point he thought he might throw up right on the

guy's floor just at the *sight* of the gun! I was amazed at this. Pavlov

would be proud...

These ranges where you can rent machine guns to shoot do a lot of their

business with foreign visiters who have dreamt of shooting a real

gun for many years but aren't allowed and finally get the chance

when they come here. They have a great time.

Tommi: Those machinegunners certainly had a field day. If I recall

correctly, there was a Maxim machinegun at the battle of the Somme (sp?)

that fired about 6 *million* rounds of ammo during the fight. They had

wagons being brought up constantly to resupply the ammo, they

never stopped firing except to reload, change barrels, do some fast

cleaning, etc. Now that is one durable machinegun!

Oh, and in the latest CM patch, MG teams now will fire more heavily if

they catch infantry out in the open at effective ranges.

[Kitty]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lee:

Now, you just know I had to comment on this.

Kitty, you have discovered one of the great truths of life, shooting machineguns is FUN, really fun. Good clean fun that lots

of folks around the country enjoy all the time. And not just here in the U.S., there are some other cool countries, like Finland

(just ask Tommi ), where you can own machineguns, too.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yea, it was way fun. =) I know a guy from this online game I used to play, he was from one of the Scandanavian countries, can't recall which one. He sent me a picture of himself when he was about 10 years old firing a Sten gun. =D

Kitty

[Simon Fox]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Now, you just know I had to comment on this (Lee)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Yes and as usual you are unable to resist making unnecessary and opinionated declarations which are guaranteed to sidetrack the thread into another off topic debate. You are quite welcome to comment on your own backyard but you know bugger all about anywhere else.

[This message has been edited by Simon Fox (edited 09-26-2000).]

[tss]

Lee wrote:

there are some other cool countries, like Finland (just ask Tommi ), where you can own machineguns, too.

Nope, you can't own a machine gun here. At least, not if it is in a working order. I think that there may be some exceptions for weapon collectors but even they can't shoot them and you have to fill a lot of forms before you can have the permit.

We have quite strict weapon laws here. Though I vaguely remember reading some study that estimated that there are about 50000 illegal firearms, most war memoirs. (To put that figure in perspective, the current population of Finland is about 5 milions so according to that study 1% of Finns have an illegal weapon). Most of those weapons lie forgotten in some attic. I don't know whether that figure is accurate or not.

I'm not too unhappy with relatively strict gun control. Even though guns are quite troublesome to get here (pistols are most difficult, hunting rifles are quite easy) it is a rare week when there's no case of some drunks shooting at each other.

BTW, as I have a long experience reading gun control threads in Usenet and other forums and I have seen where they lead (= to nothing), I make a promise that this is my only message that mentions the whole thing on this forum, ever.

- Tommi

[Schatzi]

Hi all,

having been a SMG gunner in the Austrian army myself, I can contribute some personal experience:

We used the MG42 (some even had swastikas on them)as an exercise weapon: taking apart and putting together again, barrel changes (5 seconds is no prob )etc. and had the MG74 as our real weapon (is basically an update of the 42).

I found the MG74 to be a very accurate weapon, being easily able to hit small stationary targets at 300-400 m. Its effective range is 600m and 1000m with tripod.

There are 3 reasons not to fire the MG like a madman:

Only with short bursts (4-5 shots)is it possible to maintain control and therefore accuracy over the weapon.

The only time we trained the full-out use of the MG was being in a defensive position and being confronted by an assault at close range (less than 300 m) with the sole purpose of pinning down the enemy.

2. A reason not to use the MG full-out is ammo wasting - you never know how long have have to survive on that ammo.

3. You seldom have a fixed position with a MG but rather need to maintain mobility and cover your platoon from the flank. That means you are hefting alot of weight so you dont want to waste those dearly carried rounds(13 kgs for the MG alone, then 200 rounds plus backpack and smaller items (and sometimes a pistol), while your buddy has the tripod, usually 1000 rounds and his own assault rifle StG 77 with 5 clips.

p.s. firstly I want to note, that although I have a fascination for military equipment and love war games, I abhor war and will always prefer a peaceful solution and secondly I am fully aware of the atrocities committed by my country during 38-45 and feel a deep regret for them and yet I am proud of my grandfather who served from 40-45 on the Russian front as a recon unit, getting wounded 4 times and losing his leg in March 45 due to an explosive bullet, aswell as recieving the Iron Cross for bravery (although he got degraded twice for cheekiness to a superior).

[Uedel]

Hi Schatzi,

i also enjoyed in German Army the "Sturmabwehrschießen" below 100 m with no use of the aiming optics just fast and showing where the bullets hit but that was rare most times u shoot 3-5 shoots at ranges over 100 meters.

Aber mal ehrlich "Schatzi" wie so so ein seltener Nickname

[Warren Peace]

Schatzi,

I enjoyed reading the PS in your post. My Step-father fought in Europe in 1944 as a medic in the fifth Armored Division (US). Was wounded twice and recieved a bronze star. He too was broken down to private twice for being cheeky with a superior. In his case he kept getting into fights with anti-semites that would call him "kike".

As a Jewish American who has been facsinated by WW2 I always feel a little odd. On one hand I truely hate the Nazi's and feel that they were the most evil organization ever observed on the planet. On the other hand I feel that the Average German (and probably Austrian) soldier felt that we was fighting for his country and doing his duty. (Sadly, he was also probably anti-semetic, but had never met a Jew in his life.)

The upshot is I felt you expressed your feelings admirably, i.e. disdain for what the government did, but respect for your grandfather. It is my hope that most Germans and Austrians feel the same.

[Lee]

It's nice to see a pleasant tone kept for a change when such topics come up.

I'm glad you had a good time Kitty. Anyone who I have ever seen

or heard of firing a machinegun has a great time when they do. Nothing

scary or nasty about them, just good fun for a kid who's old enough

to handle the recoil and has an adult supervising.

You ought to try an assault rifle sometime, much fun, also.

I prefer the MP-40 to the MP5, myself. Handles like a dream.

Tommi: I'm not positive, but I'm fairly sure that you can own and shoot

machineguns in Finland. Naturally, they make you go through a bunch of

needless paperwork to get one, but you can get one and shoot it, I think.

It's possible I'm thinking of Norway, though. It's one of the two.

Anyhow, lots of civilians have them here and never has a legally owned

one been used in a crime by a civilian. A perfect record. Despite

all the propaganda that gets thrown around in this country by some,

we have no problem with such machineguns at all in the U.S.

Next time one of you overseas fellows comes to the U.S., stop by a

gun range and try one out.

Schatzi: I'm a big fan of the guns you chaps make over there. I look

forward to getting more of them.

[Simon Fox]

We don't begrudge you your MGs: you need them.

Olympic shooting top 5: G/S/B

China 2/2/2

Sweden 2/0/0

Bulgaria 2/0/0

Russia 1/3/2

Australia 1/1/1

------------------

"Fatso-the battlers' prince"

[Supertanker]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Simon Fox:

We don't begrudge you your MGs: you need them.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

We are getting way off topic, but honor urges an excuse, err, I mean a response. The US Shooting Team is about 80% rookies, and favored in few events. Come talk to us again about 2008. Have a look at Sports Illustrated's predictions; there are few Team USA shooters on the list: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/features/2000/olympic2/si_picks/3/index.html#shooting

I'm not sure what the problem is with Olympic shooting in the US. I think practical shooting draws off a lot of the best competitors, as there is some money in the sport. Other events, like End of Trail, capture the imagination of the casual shooters, and the Olympic events seem quite dull comparatively.

[Michlos]

During my service we got to try out a lot of different weapons from different countries (I have to say that the M16 was boring as hell compared to lets say AK17 hehe.) What we did do quite much was fire MG's from the hip, now that's what i call power trip! I know accuracy goes to hell but hey it's FUN!

I think common practise in the Swedish army is to fire MGs with 1-2 seconds bursts. Firing for longer periods of time will just overheat the barrel and is not very accurate since (as pointed out earlier in this thread) most soldiers will hug the ground as soon as they hear a MG opening up close by.

PS. Go Sweden! : )

------------------

< All gave some, some gave ALL>

Owner of MiNa's CMBO Page

http://www.combat-mission.com

[Sergei]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dumbo:

All the non americans look at the thread and shake thier heads

Just messin with ya guys but bear in mind how odd your conversation looks for the rest of us.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, my dad came one day home from shooting range (he's a member of local elk hunting association) and told there was some special event in which he had the chance to shoot with a Maxim. There was also Soviet DP LMG, Suomi SMG and various wartime pistols and rifles. I'm not a weapons enthusiast, but I sure would have liked to be there that day!

[Lee]

Well, U.S. shooters are better known for their accomplishments in the

more... martial disciplines of shooting.

Seriously though, I was talking to a friend of mine, who's an

excellent marksman, about olympic shooting and the U.S. team. And

he told me that one advantage that other countries have over the U.S.

is that they have better quality .22 ammo to shoot with. Why? Well,

it seems some of these foreign ammo companies have simply put more

effort into making the quality of .22 ammo needed to maximize your chances

of winning at the olympic level. So, until our ammo companies fix

this problem, we'll have an uphill battle in these particular types of

competitions.

[Priest]

Damn it is good to hear from you Fionn. I heard you were banned?

------------------

Sir are you sure you want to go to red alert...it would mean changing the bulb

-Priest