Soviet Military Doctrine

[Probus]

I'm playing the Soviet campaign Ride of the 120th and just getting slaughtered.  All those tanks on the high ground, its like shooting fish in a barrel.  I'm obviously doing something wrong.  Can somebody explain how to effectively use Soviet doctrine in Cold War?  Or maybe link me a couple good articles to read about it.  Those RPGs just don't have the range to take on long range targets.  Also the Soviet Tanks (T-62s) are really having trouble hitting their targets.  Is it just me, or is the T-64 a much, much better tank?

EDIT: Ah, I see Domfluff has some videos.  I'll watch those and see what I've been missing...

Edited January 28, 2023 by Probus

[ng cavscout]

I have not had any success in getting out of my setup areas in that first scenario either. It is just a bitch of a scenario. I gave up trying the Soviet campaign (I probably don't have the proper mindset for it). Other scenarios, especially the ones demonstrating Soviet doctrine specifically, are much better at showing how to make Soviet doctrine work. The campaign designers even say in several threads it is a very difficult campaign.

Here is a thread by someone that got a victory in the campaign.

What I have found to be successful, but can't really be used in that campaign scenario from what I have seen, is massive arty prep, direct fire support from tank guns, and rolling forward as fast and hard as possible while the enemy is discomfited from the prep and support fires.

[Probus]

29 minutes ago, ng cavscout said:

 

I have not had any success in getting out of my setup areas in that first scenario either. It is just a bitch of a scenario. I gave up trying the Soviet campaign (I probably don't have the proper mindset for it). Other scenarios, especially the ones demonstrating Soviet doctrine specifically, are much better at showing how to make Soviet doctrine work. The campaign designers even say in several threads it is a very difficult campaign.

 

I feel your pain.  My first attempt was decimated.

I'm trying to use artillery in my second attempt to block sight from ridges and overlooks. I've also planned a route for my attack and I am scouting the route at the moment to see who can see me.  

Those videos were very interesting. I wonder if the tactics are currently being used. ATGMs and AT rockets may just nullify this strategy nowadays.  Maybe back then too.

[domfluff]

I think the first campaign mission is pretty great. It's brutal, sure, but it's doable with minimal casualties, with a sound approach.

A quick sketch of the first part:



Each element in the Soviet scheme sets the conditions for what follows.

The CRP's first role is to find the enemy units on the near hill. This means taking up forward positions in the treeline, and also calling in fires on the obvious AT positions. Since AT 1 won't have line of sight to where the FSE is coming in, AT 2 is the focus of these preliminary fires.

The FSE will then turn up, and will start to engage targets. The gamism here is that these won't benefit from the spotting contacts from the CRP, but you the player can still do so, and should. The FSE should be able to fight it's way up, with the intention of forming a base of fire on the hill.

When the main body arrives, they have two potential avenues of approach. AoA 1 will be faster, and will push across the open. AoA2 is using the dead ground to follow the same axis as the FSE.

Again, each element enables the following. In this case, the FSE's base of fire includes getting line of sight to AT 1. AT 1 is far too large to deny with fires in total, so you need the ISR picture from the FSE to discover where things are, for the main body to exploit.

There are still some high levels of variance in this scenario - CAS and AA in Combat Mission don't offer much in the way of deep decision making, so the losses there will be fairly random.

So no, I don't think it's a bad scenario. I'm not sure it's a particularly pleasant one, and you may well take extraordinary losses, but you have an enormous force and all the tools you need, and I think it does a good job of making you use those core ideas in terrain that's pretty challenging. I don't think the scenario is without fault, but I've seen a lot of people rage at it, and I just don't think that's remotely deserved.

[ng cavscout]

I didn't say it was a bad scenario, just, for me a bitch of a scenario and, as you said, not pleasant.

 

I am quite sure it is a failure on my part and not that of the scenario.

Edited January 29, 2023 by ng cavscout

[Lethaface]

I just started this one up and while my CRP did in fact ID some tanks and a TOW m113, I didn't get to destroy/suppress them before the FSE came in. Although I could adjust my 122battery fire onto the observed mech infantry on the edge of the town on the right. When my FSE spawned I dismounted my infantry fearing a big slaughter but the firefight quickly went my way. Did lose two BTR (sans passengers fortunately) but the tanks and ATGM-BTR did good job. One ID'ed enemy tank left but it can't shoot down on the right flank. Shilka took down a chopper (and did a good job suppressing an m60 as well), but is now out of ammo while another chopper is coming overhead.
Anyway that's how far I got until a PBEM turn came in.

Have all my TRPs on this side of the mountain, not sure if that is wise but I thought at least the rest of the map can be observed from the mountain once we get there. So at least my start isn't that 'unpleasant', perhaps got lucky or have a different AI plan.

[domfluff]

8 hours ago, ng cavscout said:

I didn't say it was a bad scenario, just, for me a bitch of a scenario and, as you said, not pleasant 

Oh sure, but there have been plenty of complaints about this since release - it's very rare to hear anything positive about it at all, and I think that's an enormous shame.

[Grey_Fox]

I think it's great, would be perfect if we had an extra 10 minutes at the start to do recon with the CRP.

[Lethaface]

I guess people don't like taking losses they can't prevent. 

After my previous post some more m60s came to the ridge but they took atgm to the face. However enemy choppers took down 2 t62, gun runned my Shilka damaging it and incapacitating a crew member. And a rocket attack immobilized a BTR. Couldn't do much about it but that's life / (simulated) war I guess. 

I probably should have just rushed things forward into the town so more difficult for the enemy choppers.

So far I'm enjoying the battle.

[Probus]

@Free Whisky & @domfluff, what a difference a bit of organization makes!  I'm still playing the campaign game and I've gone from decimated in my first game to barely scratched in my second game. I've coordinated my artillery, used my echelons to pave the way for the next echelon and stuck to a single plan.  I'm pretty much using Domfluff's AoA 2 route.

Practically all of my casualties have been from air strikes, which I really couldn't do anything about (so don't count ).  My first two echelons were just eventually chewed up by US airpower, but not after achieving their objectives of scouting the enemy and prepping the route. As soon as my main body arrived the US airpower was just swatted out of the sky.

[Simcoe]

50 minutes ago, Probus said:

@Free Whisky & @domfluff, what a difference a bit of organization makes!  I'm still playing the campaign game and I've gone from decimated in my first game to barely scratched in my second game. I've coordinated my artillery, used my echelons to pave the way for the next echelon and stuck to a single plan.  I'm pretty much using Domfluff's AoA 2 route.

Practically all of my casualties have been from air strikes, which I really couldn't do anything about (so don't count ).  My first two echelons were just eventually chewed up by US airpower, but not after achieving their objectives of scouting the enemy and prepping the route. As soon as my main body arrived the US airpower was just swatted out of the sky.

This campaign took me a couple months to get through. It's actually the only campaign that has kept my interest through to the end. if I had my way it would have more meeting engagements but it's still a lot of fun. Here's my two cents:

• Take your sweet time when you can. You are always attacking into hasty/prepared defense so speed is not necessary. Dismount your infantry and find the tanks. Bring up your FO and drop some artillery on it.
• Once you figure out their defenses don't be afraid to do some off roading. Do anything you can to bypass the kill zones
• Don't be afraid to save scum. There are situations where your forward security element will arrive and gun down the enemy without taking a scratch. There will be times when your boys will be slaughtered. There's nothing wrong with rolling the dice over and over to get a good outcome. In the third mission YOU MUST SAVE SCUM. You have two forward observers that arrive with the FSE and if you lose them you WILL lose the mission.
• Don't be afraid to restart and try again to get a better result. This campaign to me is all about trial and error.

There were quite a few times where I threw up my hands and refused to continue but I would go about my day and get a eureka moment and continue on. It's really a great campaign.