Gary R Lukas Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 I'm in the planning phase of making some scenarios involving the battles fought around Ponyri Station and Prokhorovka , but I am looking for some maps to help me get started. With the addition of Fire and Rubble we now have most of the Tanks and other equipment that was used on July 5th, 1943. There are Pz III Short and Long, Pz Mk IV longs, Panthers, Tigers, Elephants, Stug III and StuH and also the Brumbar and Pz Mk III Flame. On the Soviet side we have the T-34's, Su-122 and Su-152. Can't forget the Su-76 either. We still don't have the KV-1 or the Churchill's, nor do we have the U.S. supplied Grant's and Stuarts which were used in defense of the southern sector of the front. So if anyone out there know where I can get some good quality maps I'm all Ears. I Thank You in advance. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucky_Strike Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 44 minutes ago, Gary R Lukas said: I'm in the planning phase of making some scenarios involving the battles fought around Ponyri Station and Prokhorovka , but I am looking for some maps to help me get started. With the addition of Fire and Rubble we now have most of the Tanks and other equipment that was used on July 5th, 1943. There are Pz III Short and Long, Pz Mk IV longs, Panthers, Tigers, Elephants, Stug III and StuH and also the Brumbar and Pz Mk III Flame. On the Soviet side we have the T-34's, Su-122 and Su-152. Can't forget the Su-76 either. We still don't have the KV-1 or the Churchill's, nor do we have the U.S. supplied Grant's and Stuarts which were used in defense of the southern sector of the front. So if anyone out there know where I can get some good quality maps I'm all Ears. I Thank You in advance. Gary, if you can lay your hands on it you probably want this book - Objective Ponyri by Martin Nevshemal, published by Leaping Horseman ISBN: 9780992274917. It is incredibly comprehensive and features superb aerial photos and maps. If you've got it already please ignore me. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blazing 88's Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 Sounds great! Just have to check but I assume you already have the two campaigns created for those battles? One campaign is called 'Zitadelle' the other 'Thunder Over Ponyri'. If you don't have them I can send a link your way if you would like them? You wouldn't want to miss these!! You can also use the campaign to scenario app that is available to convert the campaigns to single scenarios. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Modernrocco Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 sorry to butt in but, I have the Zitadelle campaign but not the 'Thunder over Ponyri', you mind if I get the the Link? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blazing 88's Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 (edited) No problem. I'll post up both as a dropbox links in this thread once they are uploaded. Edited October 13, 2022 by Blazing 88's 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blazing 88's Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 (edited) I'll host these links for a few days. Get them while they are HOT!! And a big thanks to the creators of both of these campaigns! Thunder Over Ponyri:https://www.dropbox.com/s/0at3bcstky8yasx/Thunder Over Ponyri.zip?dl=0 Zitadelle:https://www.dropbox.com/s/hoo2hfyvb6yvk72/Zitadelle.zip?dl=0 Kursk mod pack is included with the Zitadelle zip, parts of which can be used in both campaigns. Edited October 13, 2022 by Blazing 88's 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DesertFox Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 Ben Wheatleys work might help you with your endeavor. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vacillator Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 1 hour ago, DesertFox said: Ben Wheatleys work might help you with your endeavor. Great shout, I was thinking the same. Plus his work also contradicts a lot of the 'history' about tank numbers, losses etc. but it seems very well researched and believable. Expecting something similar I recently bought and started to read 'Demolishing the Myth, the tank battle at Prokhorovka' by Valery Zamulin. It's not quite the same but one aspect is that the idea of vast numbers of opposing tanks slogging it out in a frenzied coming together is not what actually happened. He also gives some good reasons for successes and failures, like poor decision-making on the Soviet side. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary R Lukas Posted October 13, 2022 Author Share Posted October 13, 2022 I have lots of books on Kursk, but no detailed maps in them. I will definitely look for those two books mentioned in earlier posts. The best book I have on the entire operation for Kursk is The Battle for Kursk by David M. Glantz and Johnathan M. House. Glantz is a Retired U.S. Army Colonel who retired after 30 years of service. He has written dozens of books about the Russian Front in WWII. He also wrote When Titans Clashed, which covers Zhukov's advance to the gates of Berlin, and he also wrote a trilogy on the Battle for Stalingrad. I know for a fact that Glantz does hundreds of hours researching and tons of footnotes in his books. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artkin Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 (edited) Glantz's books are so friggen good. Very well written, not hard to understand at all. They are a scenario designer's dream. They aren't the best overall picture, since you are overwhelmed with accurate information about units specifically. House does a fantastic job of putting everything into perspective. Glantz is a precision tool best fit for CM, and House is best for learning overall. Together they make learning about history super enjoyable. I highly recommend digging through any and everything offered online by these guys. Anton Joly's book looks really really good too, but I find him and Glantz conflict sometimes. I can't remember specifically but I remember wanting to rip my hair out when I was researching for my Stalingrad campaign. The "WWII History Round Table" Channel on Youtube has these guys come on and do speeches every now and then. I've watched them all, and I'm pretty disappointed there isn't more. Specifically their WW2 HRT (History Round Table) series. I could have sworn I saw one about Kursk, but that might have been in Glantz's WW2 Myths speech. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VP_QaNU5Uys Once I have the money I'm buying everything Glantz has written. They are great books. I suggest buying directly from his website. http://www.glantzbooks.com/ Edited October 13, 2022 by Artkin 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary R Lukas Posted October 14, 2022 Author Share Posted October 14, 2022 On 10/13/2022 at 1:34 AM, Blazing 88's said: I'll host these links for a few days. Get them while they are HOT!! And a big thanks to the creators of both of these campaigns! Thunder Over Ponyri:https://www.dropbox.com/s/0at3bcstky8yasx/Thunder Over Ponyri.zip?dl=0 Zitadelle:https://www.dropbox.com/s/hoo2hfyvb6yvk72/Zitadelle.zip?dl=0 Kursk mod pack is included with the Zitadelle zip, parts of which can be used in both campaigns. I have both of these campaigns already, and they are beautifully done, but both are just so freaking huge that I get lost trying to keep control of my forces on the battlefield. I prefer scenarios that are of large size or medium size, with more direct control of the units. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary R Lukas Posted October 22, 2022 Author Share Posted October 22, 2022 On 10/12/2022 at 9:51 PM, Lucky_Strike said: Gary, if you can lay your hands on it you probably want this book - Objective Ponyri by Martin Nevshemal, published by Leaping Horseman ISBN: 9780992274917. It is incredibly comprehensive and features superb aerial photos and maps. If you've got it already please ignore me. The cheapest book I can Find Is $150.00 Thats a lot of cash for just one book 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STAGEMAN Posted October 22, 2022 Share Posted October 22, 2022 1 hour ago, Gary R Lukas said: The cheapest book I can Find Is $150.00 Thats a lot of cash for just one book lol yeah, they better be in color too for that kind of money 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucky_Strike Posted October 23, 2022 Share Posted October 23, 2022 23 hours ago, Gary R Lukas said: The cheapest book I can Find Is $150.00 Thats a lot of cash for just one book Yes, sadly the book was a pretty limited first print run so prices have become a bit inflated since it was published. It is a very detailed examination of the engagement, definitely worth an investment, don't doubt it'll hold its value; you could probably sell it on easily enough once you've finished with it if you wanted. With the weakness of the UK Pound vs US Dollar this one might be a good price even with shipping, assuming you don't have to pay import tax? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary R Lukas Posted October 27, 2022 Author Share Posted October 27, 2022 What I've really been on the hunt for is a book with detailed maps of the Southern area where the 48th Panzer Korps and the SS Panzer Korps operated, well the III Panzer Korps also with Korps Raus. The southern part of the battle was more fluid than the northern part was 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artkin Posted October 27, 2022 Share Posted October 27, 2022 @Gary R Lukas Glantz recommends "Demolishing the Myth: The Tank Battle at Prokhorovka, Kursk, July 1943: An Operational Narrative" At 11:30 in this lecture: Maybe it will help. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blazing 88's Posted October 27, 2022 Share Posted October 27, 2022 13 hours ago, Gary R Lukas said: What I've really been on the hunt for is a book with detailed maps of the Southern area where the 48th Panzer Korps and the SS Panzer Korps operated, well the III Panzer Korps also with Korps Raus. The southern part of the battle was more fluid than the northern part was I am thinking this big bastage would have something you would find of interest. I have always wanted to get this book. Someday.Kursk: The Battle of Prokhorovka , by Christopher A. Lawrence.https://www.amazon.com/Kursk-Battle-Prokhorovka-Christopher-Lawrence/dp/0971385254/ref=pd_sim_14_5?ie=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=BXNH5MJ63GGVM2APA9WC 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucky_Strike Posted October 28, 2022 Share Posted October 28, 2022 10 hours ago, Blazing 88's said: I am thinking this big bastage would have something you would find of interest. I have always wanted to get this book. Someday.Kursk: The Battle of Prokhorovka , by Christopher A. Lawrence.https://www.amazon.com/Kursk-Battle-Prokhorovka-Christopher-Lawrence/dp/0971385254/ref=pd_sim_14_5?ie=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=BXNH5MJ63GGVM2APA9WC Even more expensive than the one I mentioned!! I've had that on my wish list for a very long time, but never seen it at anything close to affordable. Don't understand why it's not been reprinted. There's a shorter version available, but I have no idea of the contents of either. The reviews of the short version are not so flattering regarding maps, the preview shows some quite large scale maps. @Gary R Lukas do you have a few specific places in mind, villages, towns or can you identify some map refs (google maps) I could at least see what is in the Objective Ponyri book for you, maybe even, huh hum, take a few snaps for you. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artkin Posted October 28, 2022 Share Posted October 28, 2022 I would totally spend the money, but not through Amazon which is a huge cesspool of accountability-less sellers (Career scammers). Google is so limited with its information, it's unfortunate that we are unable to easily access archives. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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