John Hough Posted April 10, 2000 Share Posted April 10, 2000 Bear with me a sec... My grandfather (not the one who worked on the bomb) passed away a couple years ago; we just managed to get his house sold, and are now going through all his stuff cleaning it out. Turns out there's actually some kinda interesting stuff among the junk. A 48 star american flag (improperly folded) Classified USAAF material on radar from 1944. (He worked with them as a civilian engineer, mainly on systems for instrument landings.) Engineering Journals from 1944-45, including an article on gyroscope systems for tank guns. (claiming that these systems, in tests under 'field conditions', had tanks so equipped hit their targets at 1 km 70% of the time while moving. 5 shell casings from a 30 mm gun, and a shell, fired, (I think) which doesn't look to have hit anything terribly hard. So the first random question: Any idea what the shell and casing are from? My first guess would be the Apache, which he worked on in the '80s, but I have no idea what weapons the thing has. Second random question: I'm curious (for no particular reason, except that I've passed the thing many times on the road) as to the identity of an AFV made into a monument in front of the Veterans of Foreign Wars post #2524 in Culpeper, Virginia. I think it's German, having been painted in that grey-blue color. It's fairly small; I've seen larger pickup trucks. Tracked, one set of road wheels, I think 4. No turret, the barrel (about 75mm, fairly long) was at about my eye level. A bipod sorta thing connected the barrel with the front of the vehicle. Four seats, the driver's, left of the gun, recessed into the body of the vehicle, the others very exposed, two, on the right (gunner and TC?), just behind the (quite thin) shield on the gun, the last (loader?) at the back of the gun on the left. In the back of the vehicle, below the gun, were several rows of short tubes, with sealable caps, which I presume were intended to hold ammo. I'm guessing, from the little information I've gleaned from this board, it's some sort of panzerjager. Please indulge my idle curiosity, -John Hough Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bastables Posted April 10, 2000 Share Posted April 10, 2000 Sound like a Marder III. But I suggest you go to http://www.achtungpanzer.com/panzer.htm and see if you can find a match with his pictures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Hough Posted April 10, 2000 Author Share Posted April 10, 2000 Alas, none of the pictures match. They all have a bit much protection for the crew areas; this vehicle had basically no armor from the sides, and only a very thin, flat shield around the gun to the front, which couldn't have possibly been any use against more than small arms. Perhaps the thing is a self-propelled artillery piece? It also could very well not be German... Alas, there was no sign on the thing, nor was there anyone around to ask... -John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wotan Posted April 10, 2000 Share Posted April 10, 2000 The vehicle you describe sounds a bit like a late war( for them, anyway )Italian SPG. I know of a few Japanese vehicles that are fairly close to that description, also. Your best bet is probably to get a few photos of it and post it around. Try posting it here or maybe try www.missing-lynx.com ------------------ I probably should of called myself S/SGT Lafayette Pool or maybe Lt Col Creighton Abrams... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JonS Posted April 10, 2000 Share Posted April 10, 2000 John, if you could do a sketch, or even get a photo of it, I'm sure someone here will be able to help. Neither would have to be especially good, just showing the major details, with some idea of scale As for you question about the shell case: have a look at the base of the shells - there will be sme letters and numbers stamped there. Posting those details will help a lot in identifying the parent weapon Jon "A picture paints a thousand words" [This message has been edited by JonS (edited 04-09-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Hough Posted April 10, 2000 Author Share Posted April 10, 2000 I'll be out there again next weekend, try to remember to bring along a camera... The shell casing: Maybe 11 cm long, painted a metallic green, appears to be aluminum. Along the legnth, in maybe 24 point type, left side toward the back of the shell: 28114038-101A 30 MM TP XM788 BER78070E027 On the other side, half the size, right side toward the rear of the casing: 28114028-101-C IVI8H001-016 The other one I have handy, a 'brass' color, still aluminum (I think), the last line of the large type (the rest is the same): BER79D070E032 The second line of the small type, here along the base: USE78F002-004 The numbers/letters are in white paint on both. Of the five casings, only one is the 'brass' color. Whether that represents actual frequency, or just the ones my grandfather decided to pick up, I don't know. Thanks, -John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JonS Posted April 10, 2000 Share Posted April 10, 2000 BINGO! The key bit is "30 MM TP XM788" http://192.41.43.237/man/dod-101/sys/land/30mm.htm identified there as the M788. XM788 could have been an eXperimental round developed during testing? Anyway, it seems it is for the Apache Regards Jon ------------------ Ubique Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Bill Wilder Posted April 10, 2000 Share Posted April 10, 2000 Wotan, you mentioned sgt. Lafayette Pool. You might be interested to know I designed a scenario around one of the battles in which he was involved. It may be included on the CD. If not, you'll find it posted later on the Raider Combat Mission section. He was a true tanker, no doubt about that! ------------------ Wild Bill Wild Bill's Raiders Director of Scenario Design, The Gamers Net billw@thegamers.net http://wbr.thegamers.net Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest R Cunningham Posted April 10, 2000 Share Posted April 10, 2000 Would the mystery vehicle perhaps be this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DesertFox Posted April 10, 2000 Share Posted April 10, 2000 Ah a 7,5 cm PaK 40 on Raupenschlepper Ost Chassis. Another example for the german ability to improvise This gun was put on a really huge variety of vehicles, even on vehicles which normally have absolutely nothing to do with military Helge ------------------ Sbelling chequed wyth MICROSOFT SPELLCHECKER - vorgs grate! - The DesertFox - Email: desertfox1891@hotmail.com WWW: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Capsule/2930/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
s bakker Posted April 10, 2000 Share Posted April 10, 2000 Or maybe ...... it's one of those russian air-borne tank destroyers ? (I think the first model sported a 85-mm gun i think). But those are post WWII probably from the 60's. It seems to fit the description though, i'll look on the net for a pic or name of these machines ....... Grtz S bakker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wotan Posted April 10, 2000 Share Posted April 10, 2000 Wild Bill, Thanks for including a US tanker in a scenario. Did you make he and his tank crew more experianced? For those of you who don't know who S/SGT Lafayette was, he was a platoon SGT in the 32nd Armored Regiment of the US 3rd Armored Division. In only 83 days of combat he was credited with destroying 258 German tanks, SP guns & armored vehicles. He was twice recommended for the Medal of Honor. He commanded 3 differant Shermans, the first was either a M4 or M4A1 75, the next two were both M4A1 76s, all named "In the Mood". It's rare to see an allied tanker mentioned on a war gaming site, most people are really into the German side of the battles. Wild Bill, my hat's off to you! ------------------ I probably should of called myself S/SGT Lafayette Pool or maybe Lt Col Creighton Abrams... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bakker@home Posted April 10, 2000 Share Posted April 10, 2000 More news, i looked it up at home and from the description John gave it looks like it could be a ASU-57 air transportable tank destroyer (1957+). It fits the description having four roadwheels, no gunshield but an open topped thinly armoured crew compartment with the 57-mm sticking out supported by a bipod. And the gunner and loader sat 'behind and above' the driver and loader. Since it had to be able to be dropped by chute in a special container it was tiny indeed. I lack a scanner though, maybe somebody has a pic of an ASU-57 lying around to upload ? A pic can be found in Fotofax/Zaloga's 'Soviet mechanized firepower today'. Grtz S bakker. [This message has been edited by Bakker@home (edited 04-10-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slazzari Posted April 10, 2000 Share Posted April 10, 2000 Here is a link to a diagram of an ASU-57 http://www.cs.net/panzer/panzergruppe/jul94/asu57-p1.htm#asu57_draw I believe this is from a modeling site, but it should do Scott L. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Hough Posted April 10, 2000 Author Share Posted April 10, 2000 JonS, thanks for the info. And your theory about the X seems likely, as my grandfather would likely have just grabbed them off the ground during some test.... The AFV is definitely not the one pictured on this page... It looks a bit like the ASU, though I think the gun was a bit farther forward, the back was sloped down, there was less crew protection, and the gun was definitely bigger than 57 mm. (I could fit my fist, just measured at 70 mm, inside the barrel) I suppose the gun could have even been 88 or 90 mm, but I don't think so. Also, there was a muzzle brake on the thing, if that's any help. -John Hough Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted April 11, 2000 Share Posted April 11, 2000 John, After wading through the long thread I think I may have a solution to your vehicle ID problem. I think what you're trying to describe is an M-56 SPAT, a 90mm self-propelled antitank gun used by U.S. airborne units back in the late 50s. Renwal or Revell used to have a model (since reissued, I believe) of this small, yet nasty weapon. I saw one at Ft. Benning in front of the Infantry Museum. It does have a gun shield, but the fire had better be from small arms and from directly in front! I don't have a picture link to post, but I imagine someone will find one soon. Regards, John Kettler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Galanti Posted April 11, 2000 Share Posted April 11, 2000 A quick altavista search turned up these shots of the M-56. It looks like what was described... home.twcny.rr.com/ipmssyracuse/scorpion.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted April 11, 2000 Share Posted April 11, 2000 Mattias Andersen E-mailed me several other views of this vehicle, which were taken from Crimson's U.S. military vehicle site. Unfortunately, I don't know how to copy a JPEG over to this forum, and he didn't send me a link. Also, the photos he sent show a much more elaborate muzzle brake and the text on the vehicle's development is only partial, since the document scanned was used to capture the vehicle photos. Mattias, please resubmit directly to this forum. Regards, John Kettler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Posted April 12, 2000 Share Posted April 12, 2000 Has anyone figured this out yet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Hough Posted April 13, 2000 Author Share Posted April 13, 2000 I don't think so... Though that M-56 is at least awfully damn close. Alas, my memory of the thing is beginning to fade... This weekend, though, I'll definitely get some pictures and put 'em up here. -John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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