Who won WW II???

[DEF BUNGIS]

Ponder this.............

At work today, one of my younger female soldiers asked me "how many wars the US has been in." Not thinking anything by the question I replied, "well private, I'm not really sure, but it has been quite alot depending on what you consider a WAR."

Then............

"Oh......well.....do you know how many wars the US has lost?" "That's hard to say.....we probably lost the Vietnam war....and...we got smoked pretty bad in Mogadishu."

Then, serious as hell without a flinch in her voice or face............

"What about WWI and WWII? Did we lose in those?

Not sure wheather to smile or explode......

With an eye brow raised "NOOOOOOOO, we did not lose in WWI or WWII. Now, go and get to work."

And we are wondering about potato smashing grenades!

This is not the priority of todays youth.

Is this a good thing or a bad thing.........

I'm still wondering.

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Better to make the wrong decision than be the sorry son of a bitch to scared to make one at all

[Guest MantaRay]

"and...we got smoked pretty bad in Mogadishu."

UMMMM, that was not a war, and we did not get smoked. I know as I was there. So maybe your soldiers should ask someone else about military history there partner.

Ray

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[TP_Bomber]

Bet she was a blond.

[Speedy]

Might not have been smoked but you did lose. You did not achieve your objective of installing a US friendly government before you withdrew due to the opposition of virtually the entire population of Mogadishu.

[Trooper]

Interesting thought that.. We're all familiar with the Blackhawk Down story, but it would of course be highly incorrect to extrapolate this one example to rate the success of the entire operation.

While the UN forces probably won most of the battles they were involved with (Certainly the Irish won all of theirs, hooray, cheer etc), one does have to admit that as an overall mission it was a bit of a failure, and so as a result, I would have to say that the US (and its allies) generally lost that one.

I was having a read of the British, and their deployments since WWII.. Palestine 45-48, Malaya 48-60, China 49, Korea 50-53, Oman 57-58, Jordan 58, Cyprus 56-59, Suez 56, Yemen 60-67, Kuwait 61, Borneo 62-66, East Africa 64, Rhodesia 65-66, Iceland 72-73 (Not much shooting in that one though), Cyprus 74, Falklands 77 (Again, no shooting), Falklands 82, Kuwait 91, Balkans 91-00. All this excludes the regular run-of the mill stuff like Northern Ireland duty and Cyprus, and other places of that ilk. (did the UK fight in the Congo operation?). Quite an impressive list that, although many would be 'combat deployments' as opposed to Wars.

I'm told that they have the distinction of being the only army to ever beat a guerilla force (Malaysia), which by default means that the US has never won one. Unfortunately, I can't recall the US engaging in too many guerilla wars. (Do anti-drug ops in Columbia count?)

Unfortunately, I can't recall any wars other than Vietnam that the US lost, either politically or militarily, though Bay of Pigs skirts the edges of inclusion. Looks like you guys have a fairly decent record so!

Manic Moran

[DEF BUNGIS]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MantaRay:

UMMMM, that was not a war, and we did not get smoked. I know as I was there. So maybe your soldiers should ask someone else about military history there partner.

Ray<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you noticed..... I said it depends what you want to consider a war.

And sorry if I hurt your feelings..........

But, we did get smoked.

Your Unit may not have, but, overall, the US ran out of there shooting over thier shoulder.

I'd say that's a smoking.

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Better to make the wrong decision than be the sorry son of a bitch to scared to make one at all

[Guest Madmatt]

Interesting points from a couple of different viewpoints but I doubt anyones opinion of the Mogadishu Operation is going to be changed in this thread so lets just agree to disagree about this one and keep this topic from becoming another HAZMAT zone!

Madmatt

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[Major Tom]

Three words.

Bay of Pigs

Now that was a US sponsored disaster! If only Kennedy would have released American air power there wouldn't be the corrupt left wing government in power today in Cuba. Instead it would be a corrupt right wing government!

I wouldn't go as far to say that the War of 1812 was a US loss. Sure, it wasn't a victory, and they didn't achieve any of your goals to conquer Canada, but, they managed to save your own skins in 1815. So, that was more like a draw.

Vietnam. The war for Vietnam was won by 1969, but, the war was lost due to the unrest back at home. These types of wars take a LONG time, and the US population was unwilling to spill their blood for a cause they didn't see as worth as many dead. I would give the shirt off my back to any Vietnam vet in need, and I tend to scowl at people who pride themselves as draft doggers, but, I still think it was a stupid war.

Korea, much like the War of 1812, turned out to be a draw.

So, there weren't many outright defeats on the part of the US Army. None so large that they had to rebuild from scratch like many other nations!

Wasn't Mogadishu a peacekeeping operation involving the UN? So, it wouldn't be fair just saying only AMERICAN soldiers retreated with guns pointed over their shoulder, but, United Nations soldiers? There was no political situation there, and the UN's presence was an attempt to restore law and order. It failed, as, there was little political agenda, or so I gather.

The Irish won all of their wars? I wouldn't call the uprising of 1916 a victory. I also don't think that the IRA was/is very victorious. Otherwize, you're right

[DEF BUNGIS]

Very informative MAJOR TOM.

I guess the whole point of the topic was, I didn't think knowing the outcome of WWII would be beyond a US service member, or any service member for that matter.

I can understand not knowing some or most of the detail we discuss here. But to not know the outcome!

It's not like she didn't know when D DAY was.

For gods sake, she didn't know the outcome of WWII!

Is this the trend of all youth?

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Better to make the wrong decision than be the sorry son of a bitch to scared to make one at all

[Mark IV]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Is this the trend of all youth?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No. Colin and Panzerschreck are 14, and seem quite aware of who won WWII, how, and with what. We codgers are always squawking about the ignorance of "youth", but frankly, most folks are pretty ignorant of history.

People interested in military history (not just gaming) have always been a subset. As are people who can rebuild carburetors, arguably a more useful interest.

I wouldn't judge a generation by an individual; and at least she asked the question (stupid one's the one you don't ask, right?). You have an opportunity to pique her interest, or at least get her out for some drinks...

(Why am I drawn inexorably to such padlockable topics?)

[Fionn]

Major Tom,

Read Trooper's post again. He was clearly referring to fights that Irish soldiers have gotten into while under the UN flag. He said we've won all of those.

Furthermore if we want to get really pedantic about it I can say that soldiers of the Republic of Ireland have NEVER lost a war since the state has only been in existence since 1921 and the only fighting we've been involved in since then has been under UN mandate .

Our glorious military record remains intact *chuckle*.

[Seraph]

I'd argue that the US has won most of its wars (excluding WWII) by only picking on much smaller opponents it is almost guaranteed to slaughter... as far as wars/'counter-insurgency operations'/'policing actions' that the US has lost, I can think of a few besides Viet Nam... there's El Salvador (oh right, that was *cough* the local gov fighting that war *cough*, with US-trained forces and Green Beret advisors...), 1812 (considering that the White House burned, I wouldn't call this a stalemate), a multitude of silly operations vs Cuba... millitarily they also lost the contra war in Nicaragua... it was only political and economic pressure that eventually forced their chosen puppet gov into power (they stated they would offer hundreds of millions of dollars in aid if one party was elected, and continue the contra war if the other was. US Foreign Policy Democracy at work, kids...).

On another note, it's a gross error to state that the Malaysia incident was the only successfully crushed guerilla war... um, Boer War, anyone?

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Seraph

-Suicide is the most sincere form of self-criticism.

[Guest Seimerst]

Having some knowledge about Somalia from being there too, I was debating about adding my two cents but MadMatt's sage advice gave me pause. But I will suggest that we should understand the fact that you can win every tactical battle and still lose at the strategic/political level. Round for round and man for man-- despite some things we might do differently-- the residents/warriors of Somalia were burying their dead for days. Most of what the public remembers about the incident was video of the body of the crewman being dragged throuhg the dusty streets. What you didn't see were the hundreds of their own dead and wounded. <wondering if all that still adds up to less than two cents>

[von Lucke]

Under the heading of Successfully Suppressed Guerilla Uprisings: The Phillipine Insurrection (1899 - 1903) could be judged a success on the part of the US and it's Armed Forces. After all, it took the Japanese invasion (a "real" act of war) to rest ownership of the place away from us...

[Guest MantaRay]

My point to DEF was not that we didn't "LOSE", but in reality it was not a war or anything that even came close to it. If you understand what we were esentially there for in the first place, war was not our intention.

I wont go into specifics, cause I am not a fast typist, but with the forces we had in place we couldnt have held for too long against all of the factions that were armed anyway. But it was totally a FUBAR from the word go, and in retrospect, we were very lucky to even have as few casualties as we did. I definately had better times than that.

We put our nose in too many peoples business, it figures we get our nose bitten off sometimes.

Ray

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[Guest -panzershreck-]

didnt rambo win ww2 ?

but seroiously the war was a tremendous loss for all sides(lives and resources), but the allies did acheive their objective, being Berlin of course.

[dumbo]

Actually that level of ignorance really is shocking.

To make my American cousins feel better I once had an English girlfreind who asked me if American Currency had the queens head on it , no joke.

As for losing wars sure Vietnam was a loss ,I dont buy the idea that the undefeated US forces pulled out purely becuase of unrest back home. As more Vietnamese accounts are being translated I think we getting a more balanced picture. I for one have been rather shocked at the recent hoopla over John McCain whose vietnamese captors have been demonized for beating up a guy who had been bombing civillian cities a few moments earlier. Torturing the pilots sure was an evil thing to do but the pilots were not excactly angels here (to his credit McCain and most vets say this themselves).

However to come to the defence of Americans, Veitnam like just about every other war they fought this century was fought to help out other people who begged for thier help and lets face it fighting communism was not excactly a bad thing to be doing.

I get really sick of American bashing when they are the only ones with the balls and the strength to stand up to scumbags like Milosovich and Saddam. Good on yer yanks, the world is in your debt.

_dumbo

[Guest -panzershreck-]

ummmmm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>

I get really sick of American bashing when they are the only ones with the balls and the strength to stand up to scumbags like Milosovich and Saddam

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

i get sick of americans thinking it was just them alone in these wars. i seem to remember a little organisation called the " UN " dont know if u have heard of them before...

[This message has been edited by -panzershreck- (edited 03-30-2000).]

[Lutz]

Who won WW II?

Well, Germany of course

Look at it this way: as a result of WW II we've got a democratic government and we became one of the worlds leading nations (economy wise, thanks to the Marshall Plan), what more can you ask for ?

Lutz

[DEF BUNGIS]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MantaRay:

But it was totally a FUBAR from the word go, and in retrospect, we were very lucky to even have as few casualties as we did. I definately had better times than that.

We put our nose in too many peoples business, it figures we get our nose bitten off sometimes.

Ray<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I guess this is the point I was trying to make.

But I know it wasn't FUBAR because of the soldiers on the ground.

I know you look at the subject alot differently when you take place in the operation.

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Better to make the wrong decision than be the sorry son of a bitch to scared to make one at all

[Wesy]

In response to Lutz, you could also say that Japan won the war as well. Japan has achieved the strategic objectives (second largest economy, creditor nation, a reasonably strong military - although they never call it that anymore - who else has AEGIS class equipment besides the US and Japan?). The old Japanese Zaibatsu (industrial conglomerates are well known throughout the world for generally high quality products) have generally achieved global success - Mitsubishi (the company that brought you the A6M Zero, brings you cars/widescreen tv's/ships and all kinds of widgets. Kawasaki (a major plane manufacturer during WWII) brings us personal watercraft, bikes etc.. Did Japan get overwhelmed by the strategic might of the US - a resounding yup. Did Japan do horrendous things/atrocities during the war - Yup! Did the US provide gobs of economic assitance to rebuild Japan - Yup! But in the long run - although they didn't achieve their objectives of territorial gains, they did achieve the economic objectives and when it all boils down, it's ultimately the economic ones that matter.

A journey of thousand miles begin with a single step.

[Trooper]

Anyone ever see 'The Mouse that Roared?'

Peter sellers movie about a small European Duchy that was suffering a bit of an economic crisis, and realised that the best way out was to declare war on the USA, lose, and then gain millions of dollars in post-war-aid.. the problem was that they accidentally won.

I believe there are quite a few export orders for Aegis on the books, Portugal and Taiwan come to mind, I wouldn't be surprised if there were more, but your point is well taken.

Just as an aside, (and I'm not going to respond to this topic any more because the last time we got into it the thread was locked), but please do not confuse the various illegal paramilitary factions in the North with the original IRA, who I suppose you could say did win their war to gain an independent country, and which now exists in the form of Oglaidh na hEireann, the Irish Army.

There are families in the country who state proudly that their grandparents (or whatever) were in the IRA, and some IRA members (a relative of my girlfriend, for one) are still given state funerals with military escort and politicians in attendance. There are at least three factions up there claiming to be the IRA right now (The Provisional IRA (the famous lot), the Continuity IRA, and the (So-called) Real IRA, which nobody can find an acceptable name for.

1916 wasn't a war in itself, more of an insurrection and part of the larger fight

I don't think that they militarily expected to win, but they did intend to make a point.

Actually, when I said 'The Irish won all of theirs' I meant battles in Somalia. (The Irish were also the only crowd not to take a single combat loss there). If we're going to talk solely on individual combat ops, I might rate the ambush of the Irish convoy in the Congo in the '60s as a loss, although I'm not 100% sure of the casualty/survival rates. More info on that one would be appreciated.

Anyway, take care..

Manic Moran

[Black Sabot]

In response to Wesy and Lutz,

If you're going to consider the Germans and the Japanese as victors of WW2 (based on their economy) then my vote goes to Switzerland. Think about it, they made it thru the war without a shot being fired and they get paid billions in looted Nazi treasures.

[DEF BUNGIS]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Trooper:

Actually, when I said 'The Irish won all of theirs' I meant battles in Somalia. (The Irish were also the only crowd not to take a single combat loss there).

Manic Moran<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No trolling intended...............

But, it also depends on the type of troops that were deployed.

If they were all laundry and bath specialists, you probably wouldn't recieve to many casualties.

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Better to make the wrong decision than be the sorry son of a bitch to scared to make one at all

[guachi]

Based on the economy, I think the US was the clear victor. War production made the US economy boom and what better place to wage war than on someone else's soil.

America had almost no civilian casualties and almost no property damage. By the end of the war, America's GDP was almost half of the world's total!!

Even now US GDP is massive. If you just took Federal government expenditures, they would be equal to the entire GDP of Germany (third largest economy in the world)

Jason

[This message has been edited by guachi (edited 03-30-2000).]