Is heat haze/shimmer part of the line of sight/spotting calculations?

[FinStabilized]

I have been having some unusually consistent and frustrating spotting issues on the second mission (hasty attack) of the 79 NTC campaign. I have tried to account for every plausible explanation that doesnt blame the line of system, such as dust, crew skill, being busy with other things, unbuttoned/buttoned etc.

I peek unbuttoned M60A1 over the hill they spawn on to try to spot the T-72s below. I have tried hull down positions, but I have also tried non-hull down to see if that was causing interference. I have accounted for dust, in particular from guns firing or near explosions or misses.

But sometimes I get several T-72s sitting in the open at 2-2500meters that the M60s just cannot see. I have tried face commands, as well as giving them target armor arcs. I have watched them sit there for 10 turns in a row without seeing anything. Sometimes when T-72s move, completely in the open, the M-60s are oblivious to them even when there are several of them and they are kicking up tons of dust etc.

-Is heat shimmer modeled? I have noticed the conditions of the battle are "hot."

[Vanir Ausf B]

I'm not aware of temperature having any effect on spotting, but post the save file and I'll take a look.

[FinStabilized]

https://www.filemail.com/d/eryikvhfakljaaq

 

They do kill one of the T-72s and force another to take cover here. I had to replay the scenario since I wasnt saving all my turns before. This was probably the best I have seen but as can be seen there there are extended cases where there is no dust and the T-72 platoon is in the open with all tanks cued via a target arc. Its especially baffling to me that they seem to not remember where the T-72s were after the dust clears between shots. Occasionally one of them will spot a tank but largely the entire platoon just sits there and stares at the area with no results.

I did a test in a custom scenario with regular crew skill M60s and at 3000m they were spotting much faster and more consistently, so this strikes me as unusual in this scenario.

 

Edited December 3, 2021 by FinStabilized

[Vanir Ausf B]

It's the very long range combined with the dust and smoke from the tank fire. Units in CM have no memory. When they lose sight of a target they have to start the spotting process over, albeit with the standard bonus units always get when spotting an "unknown" contact.

I set up a test scenario with the same conditions (hot and dry) and saw the same thing. I then changed the ground condition to "damp" and it made a big difference.

[MikeyD]

I want to say many-many-many years ago (CMSF1 days) there was a discussion about extreme heat optics degradation being abstracted but, man, that conversation was just too long ago to recall. 'Very dry' dust kick-up blocking LOS is very common and doesn't come as a surprise.

[Sgt.Squarehead]

5 hours ago, Vanir Ausf B said:

I set up a test scenario with the same conditions (hot and dry) and saw the same thing. I then changed the ground condition to "damp" and it made a big difference.

That seems to suggest a mechanic for thermal imaging is at play?

[chuckdyke]

In real life during a shooting competition. Temperature 42C windy RH 15% it affected the scores without doubt at 50 meters due to a mirage effect too. I wonder or this is reflected in the game. No personal best were recorded. In SF2 where they have similar conditions the infantry just get tired quickly, but they spot just the same never mind the position of the sun. 

[Sgt.Squarehead]

1 minute ago, chuckdyke said:

In SF2 where they have similar conditions the infantry just get tired quickly, but they spot just the same never mind the position of the sun.

Are you absolutely sure about that?

Because if you are not.....

I'm not sure either BTW, but it pays not to underestimate CM in my experience.

[chuckdyke]

22 minutes ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

Are you absolutely sure about that?

Never be sure about anything, they get tired quickly which affects spotting in my opinion. But once recovered their ability to spot returns. The situation in the game influences me to make decisions as in real life. Just bright sunlight can throw you off. Some briefing don't mention the time of day. So we don't know the position of the sun.  The tiring and tired could be generic with all the other factors like spotting etc. If you play RT or SF2 an RT sniper performs similar with his Mosin Nagant compared with a sniper with a Parker & Hale .308 Magnum in SF2. The latter required 6 shots to take out a RPG7 operator at 360 meters in a foxhole. What caused so many misses in the engine mechanics? I keep a log of incidences I find odd and see or there is a pattern. 

Edited December 4, 2021 by chuckdyke

[Vanir Ausf B]

43 minutes ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

That seems to suggest a mechanic for thermal imaging is at play?

I'm not sure what you mean. Neither the M60A1 or T-72 have thermal sights.

[chuckdyke]

Thermal imaging is a method of using infrared radiation and thermal energy to gather information about objects. Not my words btw. 

[Sgt.Squarehead]

43 minutes ago, Vanir Ausf B said:

I'm not sure what you mean. Neither the M60A1 or T-72 have thermal sights.

I know.....But why do they seem to spot better in cooler/damper conditions?  What's the explanation for that?

[Vanir Ausf B]

24 minutes ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

I know.....But why do they seem to spot better in cooler/damper conditions?  What's the explanation for that?

There's no dust kicked up by cannon fire with damp ground.

[Sgt.Squarehead]

Oh, OK.....Yeah, that makes sense.