Berlin CMRT Map

[RockinHarry]

3 hours ago, NPye said:

A quick walk up the Unter den Linden.

 

Nice! All taking (final) shape very well. What´s your frame rates btw? Is it all on Mac?

[RockinHarry]

9 hours ago, Lucky_Strike said:

Yeah I had a play around with using a bridge. It's quite useful for blocking LOS and traffic movement through the arches, but it's rather limited when it comes to skinning it and I couldn't really get it tall enough without some serious terrain upheaval interfering with the surrounding buildings and colonnade. I might have another look at ways to partially block LOS, perhaps with a hidden single level building on each side of the central arch, though might only need to be a rubble building at that. This would also offer some cover to pixeltruppen hiding in the arches as well as allow them passage whilst vehicles could still pass through the central archway.

Main thing is I think it's doable and will mostly function quite well.

Yeah we´ve couple of means to our avail already. Some of them should work sufficiently well I think. And yes, main idea should remain functionality and not getting the game engine fubar´ed on it. Other thing to keep in mind is frame rates. We´ll see how V2 will fare in this regard then. Guess I´m rather well prepared for it but others might be not so.

[Warts 'n' all]

3 hours ago, NPye said:

A quick walk up the Unter den Linden.

 

When playing as the Germans and something goes wrong the words "Unter den Bloody Linden" fill the air.

[RockinHarry]

9 hours ago, Lucky_Strike said:

Yeah, it makes no sense. One flat roof for the whole of the Eastern front is just lazy IMHO, especially as they already existed in CMFS2.

I hope I could port the missing ones over to CMRT (and vice versa if useful) My first attempt on porting a mod build flat roof (from BS) wasn´t successfull but got to investigate some more. Might have to do with internal numbering system and in worst case it´s all hard coded. We´ll see.

 

[NPye]

1 hour ago, RockinHarry said:

Nice! All taking (final) shape very well. What´s your frame rates btw? Is it all on Mac?

All Mac bud, not sure how to check FR though, nothing is displayed?

[NPye]

Just played the New Unter Den Linden Map, as the Soviets, man it is hard. It's amazing what a few Mg42's and some German Assault Squads can do in defence, the buildings are solid and hard to destroy with anything other than large mortars, tanks and SSV on both sides are so vulnerable, also German counter attacks with King Tigers make life very hard but those and other vehicles were dealt with after they left a trail of destruction.. i have already reduced the German units but i'm gonna have to do it again, no wonder you need 5-1 advantage in urban combat?????

 

[Lucky_Strike]

11 hours ago, NPye said:

One have to be very careful with after war soviet photos, they may have made the barricades themselves to give the impression that it must have been harder battle than it actually was. There are picture of Stalingrad where the are plenty of defences and AA guns etc. but some clever fellow proved they were fake because the buildings where smashed but on the date given for the photo the buildings were still upright and not destroyed. the Soviets done this to show they would never leave a city unprotected???? I think barricade some but leave at least one free could be good????

 

Ok I was wrong. lol There were barricades as the shots show. Cheers

So what I propose is block the main arches in the centre with the high wall type barricades, and the right hand side (viewed from Tiergarten face) with a lower barricade) whilst putting in a sandbag emplacement at the left. This should then allow access through the left, though depends if you want vehicle/afv access? Not sure how sandbag emplacements are treated in the case of a tank, in RL they would probably be traversable at slow. Alternatively we could create a different type of barrier from the barbed wire, or a flavor object that gives some cover but doesn't hinder vehicles too much. We have options ...

11 hours ago, NPye said:

Just found this gem, Hermann Goering Strasse, look at the ground textures, the roads aren't really roads anymore a mixture of mud and muck with parts of cobblestone etc... You can see the ate in the background and are these IS I's or II's either way an awesome shot of a street not very well photographed. Cheers

Interesting angle, really gives a sense of the scale of the gate. Lots of surfaces in the road, tram tracks with cobbles, pavement, tarmac, concrete, all sorts of stuff going on. It's the layer of scattered small detritus from tanks moving around and explosions that is what we could really use. And as Harry says a good dusting of human debris.

8 hours ago, NPye said:

A quick walk up the Unter den Linden.

 awesome. I do think it's great how you've taken one of the weakest elements of CM - urban environments - and turned it on its head. Bodes well for other some of the other city battles. You got plenty of work for the future once you get this one out the door ...

[Lucky_Strike]

8 hours ago, NPye said:

Sorry bud you aint retiring anywhere...lol ****ing fantastic dude....Wow wow and wow

LOL, Yep overdid it a bit, but back in the saddle again ...

[Lucky_Strike]

4 hours ago, RockinHarry said:

Yeah we´ve couple of means to our avail already. Some of them should work sufficiently well I think. And yes, main idea should remain functionality and not getting the game engine fubar´ed on it. Other thing to keep in mind is frame rates. We´ll see how V2 will fare in this regard then. Guess I´m rather well prepared for it but others might be not so.

Hehe, everyone's gonna need upgraded GPUs by the time we finish. Seriously though, framerates is something I'm very aware of. Thus far the Gate is not too bad. It does stretch the size limits for a model, had to decimate the mesh to just get it within the faces limit of the game (or export script, not sure where it comes from). All that before I redo it AGAIN. Have to sort out the UV/texture issues and figure how we can combine all the various elements, whilst still making it playable ... LoL not much then ... 

[Lucky_Strike]

4 hours ago, RockinHarry said:

I hope I could port the missing ones over to CMRT (and vice versa if useful) My first attempt on porting a mod build flat roof (from BS) wasn´t successfull but got to investigate some more. Might have to do with internal numbering system and in worst case it´s all hard coded. We´ll see.

Does CW have flat roofs, not having a demo for that is a right pain. I guess, since there's no demo one could get it on Steam, then take advantage of their refund policy. 

[Lucky_Strike]

29 minutes ago, NPye said:

Just played the New Unter Den Linden Map, as the Soviets, man it is hard. It's amazing what a few Mg42's and some German Assault Squads can do in defence, the buildings are solid and hard to destroy with anything other than large mortars, tanks and SSV on both sides are so vulnerable, also German counter attacks with King Tigers make life very hard but those and other vehicles were dealt with after they left a trail of destruction.. i have already reduced the German units but i'm gonna have to do it again, no wonder you need 5-1 advantage in urban combat?????

Yes, get a real sense of why kids armed with Panzerfaust were so dangerous and why casualty rates for the Russians were so horrendous. In some respects bombing the hell out of the place beforehand was not helpful to an assault, allies would probably have been better off just laying waste to it from air and with artillery whilst in the meantime wiping out the remnants of the Heer elsewhere. But uncle Joe had his heart set on sticking a flag on the Reichstag first, whilst the western allies were quite happy to let him sacrifice his people.

[NPye]

2 hours ago, Lucky_Strike said:

So what I propose is block the main arches in the centre with the high wall type barricades, and the right hand side (viewed from Tiergarten face) with a lower barricade) whilst putting in a sandbag emplacement at the left. This should then allow access through the left, though depends if you want vehicle/afv access? Not sure how sandbag emplacements are treated in the case of a tank, in RL they would probably be traversable at slow. Alternatively we could create a different type of barrier from the barbed wire, or a flavor object that gives some cover but doesn't hinder vehicles too much. We have options ...

14 hours ago, NPye said:

Umm bud are you thinking of making the barricades on the actually blender model or do you envisage placing FO on the map to make the barricades??? 

[RockinHarry]

6 hours ago, NPye said:

All Mac bud, not sure how to check FR though, nothing is displayed?

 

3 hours ago, Lucky_Strike said:

Hehe, everyone's gonna need upgraded GPUs by the time we finish. Seriously though, framerates is something I'm very aware of. Thus far the Gate is not too bad. It does stretch the size limits for a model, had to decimate the mesh to just get it within the faces limit of the game (or export script, not sure where it comes from). All that before I redo it AGAIN. Have to sort out the UV/texture issues and figure how we can combine all the various elements, whilst still making it playable ... LoL not much then ... 

What frame rate counter app could you use on Mac? Normally I use FRAPS one, but there´s one in ReShade as well IIRC.

Uh... didn´t know the game has a face count limit. ...erm... I feel with you Mark. Will be interesting if I ever get to high poly Blender modeling, but know who to ask then.

[RockinHarry]

1 hour ago, NPye said:

Umm bud are you thinking of making the barricades on the actually blender model or do you envisage placing FO on the map to make the barricades??? 

I´d first test large fountain FO and see if it suffices. Then use it as template though replace geometry with new one while preserving META. Might be that 2 objects placed next to each other are needed for full vehicle blocking effects. Ptroopers and vehicles like to sneak through otherwise. IIRC just vehicle origin is accounted for the blocking effect, not its full geometry/bounding box.

[Lucky_Strike]

54 minutes ago, NPye said:

Umm bud are you thinking of making the barricades on the actually blender model or do you envisage placing FO on the map to make the barricades??? 

At the moment I'm not decided. If we use the right types of flavor objects (fountains) they'll works as barricades. If I build it into the model, then we'll need something inside to act as a barrier - tall walls, fountains again or similar. The problem with walls is they are locked more closely to the grid so I need to build the model around their positions to be useable. With FOs we have more flexibility but the objects offer less blocking of LOS etc. I'll experiment with both to see which I think will work best and still give you a working model that folks can't moan too much about, might end up as a combination for the best of both worlds.

Progress is happening. Using the dimensions from your last map I have now fixed the size pretty much - don't change your map now  There's an issue with the model jumping to one side by about a metre which is incredibly annoying. This hopefully won't be too noticeable once she's given a bit of a bombed make over. I have worked out which buildings can be placed internally and have started to figure out the texture mapping so that we don't just have the one texture ...

... the statue was easiest to separate and is wearing its own texture now. From this side you can see how it's all just off centre - notice the tram tracks. I'm going to alter the model slightly so that the buildings are inside the colonnade - means the model won't be as accurate but there's no other way to adjust for the grid and game's inability to lock FOs in place properly - bug, bug BF, BUUGG BF.

Notice how the right guard house sits outside the colonnade ...

... same on left, just a bit less so. Once inside the colonnade I hope this will be less of an issue visually. Then we'll have useable buildings. I'm going to remove most of the roof from the wing, just leave the gable and roof platform. 

From the opposite side it doesn't look too bad already. Destroyed modular house amongst the columns will offer some potential combat positions. The roof will be gone here as well and some columns destroyed as per ref images, similarly with the other side.

Before the barricades go in! Scale is not too bad - compare to this 1930's image ...

Okay off to remake it for the fifth time ....... 

[RockinHarry]

3 hours ago, NPye said:

Just played the New Unter Den Linden Map, as the Soviets, man it is hard. It's amazing what a few Mg42's and some German Assault Squads can do in defence, the buildings are solid and hard to destroy with anything other than large mortars, tanks and SSV on both sides

and that considering the MG34/42 is very much dumbed down in the game. Might check this in 2.12 again but I expect no changes. Would be against BFC policy dumbing things down if they find something is too "powerful" in the game. That "balancing" nonsense. IIRC russian main Berlin street fighting tactics was direct fireing tanks and SU with some single guns (Arty and Pak) included with the mix. That to just root out germans from city block strong points. Then combined with various type assault infantry and supporting infantry like HMG and flamers. Losses were still high but they prevailed in the end.

[Lucky_Strike]

22 minutes ago, RockinHarry said:

Uh... didn´t know the game has a face count limit. ...erm... I feel with you Mark. Will be interesting if I ever get to high poly Blender modeling, but know who to ask then.

Haha. I've come up against it before with a few tree models. It appears in an error when export fails, something about 36000 x 2 +1 so around 72000 faces I guess. By modern standards that's nothing, but ... optimised engine anybody ... this year maybe ... or not.

Anyway I know we can get this one well under that. My last rough decimate on it got the count down to about 60,000.

16 minutes ago, RockinHarry said:

I´d first test large fountain FO and see if it suffices. Then use it as template though replace geometry with new one while preserving META. Might be that 2 objects placed next to each other are needed for full vehicle blocking effects. Ptroopers and vehicles like to sneak through otherwise. IIRC just vehicle origin is accounted for the blocking effect, not its full geometry/bounding box.

Yeah , I'm gonna try a few things see what works best. Good thing is this is so big it can hide a lot inside the structure. Still only one FO at the moment so will be able to place another bits around it without issue I hope (assuming not too much jumping around of FOs). We'll still suffer vehicles and pixeltruppen sinking into the surfaces, but mostly I'm hoping we can keep them out. Worse case scenario we can place some proper hedgehogs across it to at least keep the tanks out ...

Back to it ...

Edited November 19, 2022 by Lucky_Strike

[NPye]

5 minutes ago, Lucky_Strike said:

At the moment I'm not decided. If we use the right types of flavor objects (fountains) they'll works as barricades. If I build it into the model, then we'll need something inside to act as a barrier - tall walls, fountains again or similar. The problem with walls is they are locked more closely to the grid so I need to build the model around their positions to be useable. With FOs we have more flexibility but the objects offer less blocking of LOS etc. I'll experiment with both to see which I think will work best and still give you a working model that folks can't moan too much about, might end up as a combination for the best of both worlds.

Progress is happening. Using the dimensions from your last map I have now fixed the size pretty much - don't change your map now  There's an issue with the model jumping to one side by about a metre which is incredibly annoying. This hopefully won't be too noticeable once she's given a bit of a bombed make over. I have worked out which buildings can be placed internally and have started to figure out the texture mapping so that we don't just have the one texture ...

... the statue was easiest to separate and is wearing its own texture now. From this side you can see how it's all just off centre - notice the tram tracks. I'm going to alter the model slightly so that the buildings are inside the colonnade - means the model won't be as accurate but there's no other way to adjust for the grid and game's inability to lock FOs in place properly - bug, bug BF, BUUGG BF.

Notice how the right guard house sits outside the colonnade ...

... same on left, just a bit less so. Once inside the colonnade I hope this will be less of an issue visually. Then we'll have useable buildings. I'm going to remove most of the roof from the wing, just leave the gable and roof platform. 

From the opposite side it doesn't look too bad already. Destroyed modular house amongst the columns will offer some potential combat positions. The roof will be gone here as well and some columns destroyed as per ref images, similarly with the other side.

Before the barricades go in! Scale is not too bad - compare to this 1930's image ...

Okay off to remake it for the fifth time ....... 

LOL you know it's worth it... I feel for ya I don't know how many times i've changed the maps as new photos come through etc. I often expand then expand again due to an interesting feature new by... I think i've actually gone mad.....lol

This is what i'm like just updated the Billboard for the bloody 5th time... but was worth it much improved and fitting. Cheers bud that model you are preparing is making me happier everytime I see it...lol

 

[RockinHarry]

3 hours ago, Lucky_Strike said:

Does CW have flat roofs, not having a demo for that is a right pain. I guess, since there's no demo one could get it on Steam, then take advantage of their refund policy. 

yup, pity with the demo but I think BS and SF2 has the same stuff for grabbing basically. At least when it comes to builds and FO. The Demos are to showcase stuff so most of those is likely beeing put in I guess.

[Lucky_Strike]

3 minutes ago, NPye said:

LOL you know it's worth it... I feel for ya I don't know how many times i've changed the maps as new photos come through etc. I often expand then expand again due to an interesting feature new by... I think i've actually gone mad.....lol

This is what i'm like just updated the Billboard for the bloody 5th time... but was worth it much improved and fitting. Cheers bud that model you are preparing is making me happier everytime I see it...lol

It's the life of a modder/mapper  - but yeah, so far we're happy bunnies, and yes, the billboard looks great. 

[RockinHarry]

13 minutes ago, Lucky_Strike said:

The problem with walls is they are locked more closely to the grid so I need to build the model around their positions to be useable. With FOs we have more flexibility but the objects offer less blocking of LOS etc. I'll experiment with both to see which I think will work best and still give you a working model that folks can't moan too much about, might end up as a combination for the best of both worlds.

More flexibility with FO I´d say, though walls have advantage they can be dealt with by blast command. But might try both as you say.

14 minutes ago, Lucky_Strike said:

There's an issue with the model jumping to one side by about a metre which is incredibly annoying.

can´t you offset the 1 meter in Blender maybe?

15 minutes ago, Lucky_Strike said:

but there's no other way to adjust for the grid and game's inability to lock FOs in place properly - bug, bug BF, BUUGG BF.

they actually do "lock" but are bound to the 1m grid and not allowed competing with another object wanting to "snap" on same 1m node.

Otherwise....great work thus far! New CM: City builder and destroyer.

[NPye]

1 minute ago, RockinHarry said:

New CM: City builder and destroyer.

LOL Dam right...

[Lucky_Strike]

40 minutes ago, RockinHarry said:

More flexibility with FO I´d say, though walls have advantage they can be dealt with by blast command. But might try both as you say.

Yes, FOs are probably easier, but I'm thinking a combination since walls do offer better LOS blocking and hinder movement really well. FO's to fill the space behind wall should prevent some odd behaviour by pixeltruppen ...

Just walls - of course they didn't align with the model and no flexibility to move them, but the model can move and in this instance it favoured me to move it a little ...

... as it actually improved the alignment with the front ruined houses. Note the barbed wire - that's as close as I was allowed to place it!

So with walls, barbed wire and a sandbag position in place what do the boys think of it ...

Given one movement order to run right through the middle this team went around their right side through the gap in the colonnade - nice 

Another team off around the opposite side even skirting the sandbags ... a little bit of running through columns but we're used to odd moments like that in CM 

What about vehicles I hear you all shout ...?

Given a direct move order to go through the middle arch ...

Didn't even change gear straight through a sandbag wall - WTF!?

Okay so a Kubel is quite small maybe there's a gap ...

What about something bigger ...?

Barely even swerved to avoid the god damned middle of the fricking sandbags - absolute BULL - come on BF, how's this for a bit of abstraction  - abstraction my f*cking arse!   He's not even attempting to avoid the bags, didn't slow down, no bumping over them, no trail of debris, pointless ... even the pixeltruppen went around when they could have jumped over them. 

Pixeltruppen directed to the middle under the middle arch ...

Yeah, we might lose a few in amongst the rubble, we'll see what the added FO's do ...

1 hour ago, RockinHarry said:

can´t you offset the 1 meter in Blender maybe?

Yeah maybe , I've positioned the origin/handle for ease of placing/clicking/repositioning the gate, it's a bit of a wiggle to get it into the space, and easy to accidentally click when doing other stuff. Earlier models had problems where I lost the handle point, so click to position was very difficult. I may also just try growing it by a metre see if that works. 

1 hour ago, RockinHarry said:

they actually do "lock" but are bound to the 1m grid and not allowed competing with another object wanting to "snap" on same 1m node.

Well that's what is supposed to happen but here we have no other FOs in sight. We've all seen it before where the 'rule' just doesn't work for some unknown reason, had the same issue with FO columns there was one that just refused to stay in place despite all attempts to shuffle, replace etc. Not too many in a square or sitting on the same 1m node. Even tried with your grass grid so I could measure things more accurately, engine just wouldn't have it. Anyway I'm sure I can make this work a little better, afterall here are lots of places I can try its handle/origin 

[RockinHarry]

17 minutes ago, Lucky_Strike said:

Another team off around the opposite side even skirting the sandbags ... a little bit of running through columns but we're used to odd moments like that in CM 

What about vehicles I hear you all shout ...?

Given a direct move order to go through the middle arch ...

Didn't even change gear straight through a sandbag wall - WTF!?

Okay so a Kubel is quite small maybe there's a gap ...

What about something bigger ...?

Barely even swerved to avoid the god damned middle of the fricking sandbags - absolute BULL - come on BF, how's this for a bit of abstraction  - abstraction my f*cking arse!   He's not even attempting to avoid the bags, didn't slow down, no bumping over them, no trail of debris, pointless ... even the pixeltruppen went around when they could have jumped over them. 

yup, was to be expected unfortunately. So if it´s not actual 1m spacing then it very likely has to do with bounding box data in meta. This can overrule 1m spacing so you need an even larger spacing for them to stick close by. What META did you apply for sandbags and columns btw? You might copy over the one from large fountain or carts for larger spacing and maybe some the stumps for strict 1m spacing allowance. You can check these things out in my FO test map if you´ve not done already.

For complete vehicular blocking you need at least 2x 1m (or 8 side by side in full AS) strict FO or a single one which has larger (2-3m) for same effect. Otherwise vehicles will just sneak through. Infantry is somewhat different, depending on move mode and range to move target. They (TacAI) avoid movement obstacles usually, but that doesn´t mean they can´t move through nonetheless. Block their alternative paths by i.e high wall and check that out too.

[Lucky_Strike]

Okay, so I can fix the jumping by relocating the handle to a spot which I can measure using Harry's very useful gridded grass - place the model where it should be before it jumps; find a nice handle spot on it where it intersects one of the 1m nodes; make a mental note of said spot; into Blender and move the origin to the new spot; test and tweak. No more jumping around. This is good to remember for future use.

3 hours ago, RockinHarry said:

yup, was to be expected unfortunately. So if it´s not actual 1m spacing then it very likely has to do with bounding box data in meta. This can overrule 1m spacing so you need an even larger spacing for them to stick close by. What META did you apply for sandbags and columns btw? You might copy over the one from large fountain or carts for larger spacing and maybe some the stumps for strict 1m spacing allowance. You can check these things out in my FO test map if you´ve not done already.

Yeah wasn't surprised to see them inside the tall wall enclosure. Tried fountains in there which did confuse them a bit, so will try other wall shapes and FO's to keep them out. Note to BF, how about a no go marker for the future, something that just tells the AI it can't put anything in a certain square, darn sight easier than all this faffing with ground tiles and hidden objects and using stuff where it was never intended. Without being able to enclose the area entirely there's a chance that the AI will use the cover provided so may just have to live with that. Or turn it into deep marsh or something like that ...

No meta was applied to the sandbag wall, that's just the stock game fortification, purchased and placed, which is why I was surprised to see soft skins just drive on through. Turns out that the fortifications aren't so fortified ...

The column is just the column still, but at the moment that's just the base model for the gate so only the original meta, that'll only affect the area around the origin/bounding box, rest of model won't receive any benefit from it. So in terms of obstruction to movement and LOS within the model there are: the ruined buildings at each side; tall walls in the central arches; the low wall at one end; flavor objects within the walled area; barbed wire obstacles on Tiergarten face.

Overall it works quite well with pixeltruppen pretty much using the obvious routes through. Just the pointless sandbag wall that doesn't stop vehicles which I need to think about.

Other options that could work but which might not give such an accurate historical playability: 

- There's room under the central arches for a modular building, three storey wrecked down to two storey, given a new skin to look like the large rubble filled barricades, these types ...

Issues with this would be pixeltruppen occupying it - does that matter? These barricades weren't used as bunkers as such, but were meant as obstructions and impassable objects, they would have taken a lot of HE to get through and prevented tanks progressing. Might be able to use the large two storey barn - fill it with FOs to make the ground floor difficult to use, reskinned to look like a barricade.

- Use actual bunkers. These will fit under the arches. Cloaked with FOs to look like the barricade. Again not barricades, but resilient enough and can't be completely destroyed like houses. FO would avoid the issue of ownership like we had with the chimney bunker I made. Okay the bunker would remain undetected until spotted but the FO skin would be there all the time, and importantly bunkers can be purchased ready destroyed, burning if wanted. I'm already thinking a wooden bunker might act as a better substitute for the sandbags wall anyway ...

- So apart from the wooden bunker as substitute for the sandbag wall, foxholes might make a good stand in, Kubel unlikely to drive through those I hope! Dress them up to look more like this ...

... doesn't matter then if they're above ground, they will look the part and function.

- which leads to a trench in place of the sandbag wall. Again doesn't matter they sit above ground if dressed to look like the position above. Functional, stops some vehicles and could look the part. Might be harder to place though since it will only occupy about one arch.

Have I missed anything? Maybe a ditch? Simple rubble walls?