Soviet T-72's

[Amedeo]

Addendum

I realized that the tables I posted in the above message could not be an easy read for many forum members, so I'm adding a couple of clarifying comments.

The first table lists the total of tanks, IFV/APCs and artillery pieces for all Soviet (non-reserve, non-mobilization) Tank Divisions at the "end of the '80s" (actual data might be from the fall 1990 CFE treaty). The first column of the table shows the Tank Division number (the abbreviation гв. stands for Guards). The columns with the figures in bold are the totals (всего) of, respectively, tanks, APCs/IFVs, SPHs/ordnance/mortars/SPAAGs. The names of the individual pieces of equipment are easily recognizable (I presume). Tanks are the easiest, since the cyrillic Т has the same shape of a latin alphabet T, thus T-64 means, well... T-64! . The rest is an easy guess, for example: БТР-60 is BTR-60, БМП-2 is BMP-2, Д-30 is the D-20 towed howitzer, 2С1 is the 2S1 SP howitzer and so on. 

The second table shows the number of tanks in the Divisions and Independent Tank Regiments of the Group of Soviet Forces in Germany (later Western Group of Forces) in 1987 (1st January) and 1990 (19th November). The first column lists the Armies (in order: 1st Guards Tank, 2nd Guards Tank, 3rd Combined Arms - formerly 3rd Shock, 8th Guards Combined Arms, 20 Guards Combined Arms), the second column lists the units. Just consider that танковая дивизия means tank division, мотострелковая дивизия means motor-rifle division, отдельный танковий полк means independent tank regiment and гвардейская is an adjective that can be translated as "Guards". Both the columns under the 1987 and 1990 headers shows figures for the total number of tanks in the unit and the total number of T-80s in the division (the general total includes the T-80s).

What is important is that, if we have to give credit to those numbers, there's something wrong with the 1985 figures describing the distribution of T-80 tanks in the GSVG from Michael Holm's site (the reference I used to compile the table in my first post in this thread. Please notice that I have no evidence to suggest which of the two set of data is wrong, mainly because neither clearly points to a primary historical source; I just want to clarify that they are incompatible. The "1985" dataset suggests a relatively high number of T-80 tanks in Germany, concentrated in less than half of the divisions present. On the other hand, the "1987" dataset suggests a less massive presence of the T-80 -about half of the tanks of the other dataset - but more distributed, that is: almost every division has a company/battalion/regiment worth of T-80s. Strangely enough, the only division that is almost fully equipped with T-80s in the "1987 dataset" (the 94th Guards Motorized Rifle Division) is one of the division that has no T-80s whatsoever in the other set!

 

[Amedeo]

I recently found an intelligence summary from 1982 by the Dutch Army that fits nicely with the data for the years 1979 and 1985 that I presented in one of my previous posts in this thread.

http://www.stichtingargus.nl/bvd/warschaupakt/intsum-82-2.pdf

On page 24 of the report one can find which Soviet divisions in GSVG were equipped with T-62 tanks and which one with T-64 tanks. It is implied that the divisions are equipped with a single tank type, however, if we just assume that the report simply states what can be considered the predominant tank in a given unit, we see that the data is totally compatible with the numbers we get from Holm's site.

In the following table I listed the most numerous tank model in each division. Data for 1979 and 1985 are from Holm's site (see my previous post for the detailed numbers) while data for 1982 is taken from the above mentioned report. This report not only is very interesting per se, and will be useful for CMCW scenario designers, but it also indirectly corroborates Holm's data since, as you can see, the fit is perfect: between 1979 and 1985 the listed units retained their equipment or upgraded it, no weird downgrades or inexplicable jumps.

	1979	1982	1985
9 TD	T-62	T-62	T-80
11 GvTD	T-62	T-62	T-80
20 GvMSD	T-62	T-62	T-62
16 GvTD	T-64	T-64	T-64
21 MSD	T-64	T-64	T-64
94 GvMSD	T-64	T-64	T-64
207 MSD	T-62	T-64	T-64
7 GvTD	T-62	T-62	T-64
10 GvTD	T-62	T-64	T-64
12 GvTD	T-64	T-64	T-64
47 GvTD	T-64	T-64	T-64
79 GvTD	T-62	T-62	T-80
27 GvMSD	T-62	T-62	T-80
39 GvMSD	T-62	T-62	T-62
57 GvMSD	T-55	T-62	T-80
25 TD	T-64	T-64	T-64
32 GvTD	T-64	N/A	T-64
90 GvTD	T-64	N/A	T-64
35 MSD	T-62	T-64	T-64

 

[MikeyD]

Back revisiting this, if you go to my 'Between Two Fahrbahns scenario and read the Red orders I believe I explained the T72's presence by stating they had been pulled from Poland border duty as attrition replacement vehicles so they're an unusual addition to the front. The Blue orders mentioned this was the first time they had faced T72s in this sector. So I had cobbled together a somewhat reasonable explanation for them showing up when they did. 

[Amedeo]

On 5/14/2023 at 8:22 AM, MikeyD said:

Back revisiting this, if you go to my 'Between Two Fahrbahns scenario and read the Red orders I believe I explained the T72's presence by stating they had been pulled from Poland border duty as attrition replacement vehicles so they're an unusual addition to the front. The Blue orders mentioned this was the first time they had faced T72s in this sector. So I had cobbled together a somewhat reasonable explanation for them showing up when they did. 

The T-72 was also considered to be the "easy-to-manufacture, war-production" tank. So it is perfectly plausible to have them as replacement tanks for Soviet units, even within GSFG.

BTW, I don't know exactly why, but "Between Two Fahrbahns" is the scenario I played the most in CMCW. I played it, both as the Soviet and as the US Army, six times and I intend to have a go at it again in the future. Good work!

[Duckman]

Very interesting discussion. I always thought the T-72 was the main Soviet tank but it seems I was wrong. 

Between Two Fahrbahns is my favourite scenario, prolly because I'm a defensive player.

[Halmbarte]

15 hours ago, Duckman said:

Very interesting discussion. I always thought the T-72 was the main Soviet tank but it seems I was wrong. 

Between Two Fahrbahns is my favourite scenario, prolly because I'm a defensive player.

It's also a lot of fun on the attack, as long as you use Soviet norms to get the best use out of your troops. 

You can substitute BMP or BTR company for the tank company. Last time I played it was with a BTR company with an attached T62 platoon and some battalion AT-4s. 

H

[Combatintman]

@MikeyD's Between two Fahrbahns is the first one I tested in the heady days of 'wow - Battlefront are doing the Cold War' - it is a fun scenario for sure and proves the point that so-called historically accurate scenarios are absolutely not the be-all and end-all.