TCP/IP...should we care?

[PanzerShark]

After reading some reviews on the net i noticed these to mention one and the same "downfall" every time, namely NO tcp/ip support.

Ofcourse if these people had read this messageboard every now and then, or just do a search, they would have known that BTS is working on a patch wich will provide this support.

Although i can see BTS is creating this patch, i mean they ALMOST promised it, i was wondering if we should really care.

Take your regular game, 30 turns or so. How long will it take to both finish, let's say, the 15th turn? I once PBEM-ed a friend and he was ready in 3 minutes....same turn took me 25 to be absolutely happy with it.

Personally i look at the map in a million ways. I take an overhead view so i can see the layout, i then take view 2 or 3 and look at the hills/valleys, i order my troops one by one...using many waypoints. Then i look at these paths in first person so i can see the LOS very well. Now then. This takes me 10-20 minutes on the "small" demo-maps. When the turn is played, i view the replay over and over so i don't miss a thing.

In general, a turn on this "small" map takes about 30 minutes. How much fun is that for my opponent that is ready in 3 minutes?

Maybe i'm just slow but i think in order to control the battle you WILL or even MUST take a fair amount of time.

That's why i always play PBEM, while waiting for a turn you can do some shopping, do the dishes and more (playing CM single player? )

I say: Let BTS have their well deserved holiday and forget all about this patch (just create a new bmp, one that doesn't show the tcp/ip option).

I know this is kinda long post, has many typos, and frankly...it's useless .

Then again, i'm at work, still haven't received the game (will take another week i guess) and am bored.

What's your excuse?

PanzerShark

**edited some typos that were really REALLY bad**

**edited even more typos that were really REALLY bad...going for the coffeemachine now**

[This message has been edited by PanzerShark (edited 06-21-2000).]

[This message has been edited by PanzerShark (edited 06-21-2000).]

[sbg2112]

For me, I do care about TCP/IP because it will add (yet) another flavor to the game.

Anyway, this was all discussed recently, but here's the gist of it as I understand it.

First of all, head-to-head games can go faster -- a scenario that takes a week to PBEM might only take an hour head-to-head.

But perhaps more importantly is the added degree of realism -- if turn timers make it into the implementation. No more doing all that stuff you talk about doing -- you're a battlefield commander and you've got to be able to think on your feet. You have to assess the situation quickly and react quickly with your orders.

Anyway, do a search to get the rest of the discussion.....

[RMC]

I don't think TCP/IP is a really big deal. I think it would be hard to finish a game in one sitting anyway. Would you then be able to save the game and start it up again? I wouldn't think so. TCP/IP is a selling point since it is a "feature" and many other games have it. The difference in playing styles you've illustrated would cause a lot of frustration for the guys who are waiting for the turn resolution and also for the guy who is "taking too damn long." I imagine they would have to include a chat feature too.

Anyway, I think CM would be fine without TCP/IP. It seems to me most folks who ask for it are asking because it is almost a standard feature these days and aren't thinking about the way CM is played.

[aka_tom_w]

Yes TCP/IP is a BIG deal, and yes I do really care because, perhaps like your opponent who finished his turn in 3 minutes, I would like to play relatively quickly, so its the turn timers that will REALLY make this game an adrenaline rush.

YES, I want turn timers, I can't wait.

I hope there is a user defineable timer for the set-up phase and a different timer for the orders phase and a different timer for the movie watching phase. I can see a need for a little longer set phase, but the orders phase and the movie phase should be set to something pretty quick. I would like to play against opponents that would be comfortable with a setting of 2-4 minutes for the movie and 5-7 minutes for the orders phase so that one complete turn (two orders phases,one each and two watch-the-movie phases) would take no more than a maximum of 20 minutes or so with the minute or two to crunch the turn.

Yes we are looking forward to TCP/IP but more than that I am really looking forward to the timers and I really hope they are highly user configurable. (three different timers and the user can set the time limit for any number of minutes they both mutually agree to.)

And so it is clear I'm not whinning I'm happy to wait the two months or so it will take to fully develop this patch.

Go BTS

and thanks again

(still waiting for my game but not complaining)

-tom w

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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> "Have you thanked BTS by buying your SECOND copy of CM yet?" <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Neutral Party]

Hard to say definitively about tcp/ip until we see it.

For me the longest thing is set-up and the first move. Generally these take forever. Everything else happens pretty fast (sometimes too fast).

I do know that when pbeming I get very frustrated waiting for the next turn to arrive - although icq can help this quite a bit.

I would guess tcp/ip would be the closest we will ever get to real time (if timers are implemented) and will add another layer of fear. Fear and surprise. Our three main weapons will be fear, surprise and an almost fanatical devotion to Combat Mission.

I know I'd like to try it - anyway Charles has got nothing better to do than laze around drinking wine.

Joe

[Frenchy]

I think TCP/IP should be implemented. All of the above reasons are good ones. In order for TCP/IP to work, and to play a game in a reasonable amount of time, time restrictions per turn must be worked in somehow. Otherwise, one could spend a fair amount of time contemplating a move.

TCP/IP is another gaming option and is a reflection of our "tech culture". We want the ability to play instanteously over the internet. But for some odd reason, it's hard to find a face to face opponent for a good ol' board game...strange .

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Webmaster

http://www.trailblazersww2.org

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[Mikester]

PanzerShark,

Yes, many of us do care very much. IMHO the lack of TCP/IP support is the single biggest feature missing in the initial release of the game bar none. And I mean absolutely none.

Mikester out.

[Guest *Captain Foobar*]

The time pressure is important for the game. Your ww2 counterparts didnt have 30 minutes to study LOS. The only turn that should get more than 3-5 minutes of time spent on it is Setup (this goes for battles sized the same as in the demo. Obviously a battallion would require more attention)

Also, Its going to be WAY faster, and if you dont finish in one sitting, just save your game, and meet up later.....

[Joe Shaw]

Captain Foobar raises an interesting question that I don't recall seeing answered (I didn't do a search, my bad). In a TCP/IP game, will it be possible to save a game in progress so that both sides can continue at later date? And in a similar vein, will there be an autosave feature that will help to resurrect those inevitable disconnect games in which one player or another loses his internet connection?

I certainly hope so in both cases, otherwise the infamous "disco", that bugaboo of net play will rear it's head and make life miserable.

For the record, I too would like to see TCP/IP implemented, if for no other reason than that it would create a different flavor for the game. Less time means more stress and quicker decisions.

Joe

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Compliments appreciated, Questions answered, Death Threats reciprocated.

[Mikester]

Captain Foobar,

I would agree about the timer thing during the battle. However, I would seriously disagree about the setup time thing. Especially in terms of attack / defend scenarios. Defenders almost always sighted in guns, checked lanes of fire/LOS, etc., etc., etc. The didn't just magically appear somewhere and only be given 3-5 minutes to hurridly setup before the attackers suddendly descended upon them.

Same holds true for attacking. Plans were generally made, scouting reports reviewed, commanders given mission and objectives. Staging areas determined, forces gathered, etc. This all plays into the attackers setup. And again, they didn't just magically do all this in 3-5 minutes. It took time to plan effective attacks.

Part of German tank ace Michel Wittmann's genius was that he always recon'd the battlefield whenever possible before the battle. He'd take an MP40 w/ him and generally go out by himself and check out the entire area, discretely of course. He would then formulate in his mind how he envisioned the attack, all potential problems that might arise, etc. His tanks were then setup in staging areas accordingly. This all took time.

Point is commanders in real life didn't just race up to the front because they were ordered to attack and then plunge into battle. Neither did defenders just sit around waiting to be attacked and not make any preparations that took time. Yet, that's exactly what you are implying we should be doing by limiting setup times.

Leave the setup time up to the players to properly prepare for battle. Use the timer once the battle has begun. Only exception to this in my view would be a meeting engagement where both side run into each other (perhaps totally unexpectedly) and neither side would have reallly had time in real life to make any preparations like checking LOS's, etc.

Mikester out.

[iggi]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Point is commanders in real life didn't just race up to the front because they were ordered to attack and then plunge into battle. Neither did defenders just sit around waiting to be attacked and not make any preparations that took time.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What, no lightning quick commanders like in close combat? You mean commanders actually have to plan?

TCP/IP is important to me. When I have a day off, I want to be able to finish the game in one sitting. At max, save the game and finish it in 2 sittings.

PS The whole movie feature is a BIG PLUS. Waiting for that too. Seeing other people's movies in ONE download is important to me. With a cable modem, downloading is no problem. The future is here, let's profit from it. You learn by example and practice. The movie feature would also set CM HUGELY apart from *any* other game.

[jackholt]

I don't get this thing about time, except for setup. Take a look at terrain, develop a strategy, and order your moves. It takes me about 30 minutes to play 12 turns. I've only been defeated one time. A 42 turn game takes about about 90 minutes.

I know the old saying about plans and their falling apart after the first contact with the enemy. However, if you have an overall strategy in mind the tactical changes which must be made each turn are easier.

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Jack Holt

jackholt@home.com

[jackholt]

I started playing board games in the mid 60s. It was hard then to find competition. I usually had to play both sides. Sometimes it took hours just to set up, much less play the game. Ah, Starfleet Command, D&D, Panzer Blitz, Battle of the Bulge, Midway... I don't miss em! Love being able to set up in a few minutes, and have an AI as the never ending competition. Best of all is TCP/IP, network, and www games. CM would be well suited to that end.

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Jack Holt

jackholt@home.com

[Cpt B M Deleted]

How do I even work the TCP/IP on my mac? I don't even know how!

[Hemo2]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PanzerShark:

... i was wondering if we should really care.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I do

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PanzerShark:

... In general, a turn on this "small" map takes about 30 minutes. How much fun is that for my opponent that is ready in 3 minutes?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good point, but it would depend on the opponent wouldn't it? There's so much talk of realism when referring to CM, (justifiably so), but no talk of how 'unrealistic' it is to spend hours if you wish to decide your next move when the battle is 'paused' between turns. I prefer to play the game quickly and hope the TCP/IP option will be implemented with a 'timer' during the orders phase to keep the game moving along thus eliminating the delay each opponent would have to wait. Another reason I want to play head to head is I can voice chat with my friends while were playing. (Team Sound works very well for this.) I realize you can do this if you're both online running email in the background, but then I would rather not run other programs while CM is running and task switch between them.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PanzerShark:

I say: Let BTS have their well deserved holiday and forget all about this patch (just create a new bmp, one that doesn't show the tcp/ip option).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I know BTS will release the TCP/IP update because they said they would and I take them at their word. If for some reason they decide to abandon TCP/IP multiplayer support, then I for one would be extremely disappointed.

I know it all boils down to personal preference and that's fine, but my preference is to definately have this option and use this mode of play. I've always been of the opinion that if an option is in the game you don't have to use it, but the more options the game has the wider the audience the game will appeal to. TCP/IP support is a big deal for a lot of people, so get it in this game.

[Ithai]

Captain your tcp/ip is already set up because you are on the internet. You would simply send them your ip address and then your opponet would connect to you.

To me tcp/ip is utmost important. PBEM is fun but it takes away from the true spirit of the game and it takes too long. I've loved CM because its a we go situation not you go i go. Well that's my 2 cents.

[Guest Scott Clinton]

I don't have the game yet...

Is there a 'blurb' in the readme or documentation that mentions that a TCP/IP patch will be forth coming?

If so, then the reviewers should have at least mentioned it. But, either way they have every right to be disappointed in their being no TCP/IP included in the game.

Lord knows I have bought SEVERAL games that either had TCP/IP that was buggy as Hell or did not have it working at all when released. Those game companies also promised to fix it...but it never happened.

You and I may trust BTS to come through. But 99% of the people out there will judge BTS based upon what they have seen the rest of the 'industry' do. This is too bad for BTS, but it is a fact of life. People base their opinions on similiar past experiences. BTS will just have to prove itself in the long run.

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Please note: The above is solely the opinion of 'The Grumbling Grognard' and reflects no one else's views but his own.

[This message has been edited by Scott Clinton (edited 06-21-2000).]

[kb9sog]

One word:

Multitask

TCP/IP is a great idea. Especially if you can save the game mid-battle and return to it. While your opponent makes his 5-7 minute plot for his/her turn, do something productive.

1. Clean your computer desk.

2. Organize your CD's.

3. Minimize the game and open up Word and work on projects for your job.

4. Make a snack.

5. Drink a beer.

6. Play a game of solitaire.

7. Download dirty pictures. (If that's your thing.)

8. Study for your license to enter the world of Amateur Radio. (Hint, Hint, see sig below.)

The list is endless. TCP/IP is going to be a great feature to have to play a casual round of battle with your buds for fun and bragging rights. 5-7 minutes is realistic to plot a turn. Save the PBEM stuff for CMMC and/or ladder play. Then give it your all.

2-5 TCP/IP matches while multitasking to study for your FCC exam to become a licensed ham and you'll pass with flying colours. Then go buy yourself a modest ham radio with a simple antenna hook up and talk to radio free Europe while waiting for your next turn from your opponent.

I'm such a lurker....still a junior member and have read this board every day since November. hehe

Cheers! And here's to hoping that CM will be in the mail slot today!

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BJ Simpson

Visit www.arrl.org for information about Ham Radio.

IN HOC SIGNO VINCES

[Guest Captitalistdoginchina]

TCP/IP is important.

About the time restraints? i am not so sure its a good thing. One of the most enjoyable aspects in CM is the movie phase, i love to pan around the battlefield and watch all those individual fights going on from different angles and different perspectives, especially in VoT when the house to house fighting starts. I play it about a dozen times (Except the first few turns when not much happens) It is funny how you notice more little things the more you watch. A time constraint would take away a little enjoyment for me although i do understand how it can get a little boring for your opponent during TCP/IP play.

It will be interesting to see how BTS balance the timing - maybe both players will watch the same movie at the same time, as opposed to each watching his own seperate movie in PBEM play?

CDIC

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"Death solves all problems - no man no problem"

J.V.Stalin, 1918

[Joe Shaw]

KB9SOG ... 73s OM.

Joe (formerly WB7VDH)

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Compliments appreciated, Questions answered, Death Threats reciprocated.

[Mikester]

Scott,

Really sorry to see you didn't get the game yet. You've been around here a long, long, time like some of the rest of us. It's too bad to see you and everyone else having to wait to get the game.

Take a look at my "Thanks a Million BTS" thread. I asked Charles about when TCP/IP would be available and he said they are aiming to try and have it out in about 2 months or so at the earliest.

Mikester out.

[Papa Khann]

IMHO, TCP/IP will be a great addition to an already great game.

Turn timers will be a must, however, both to prevent players from taking an eternity to replay the movies over and over and over and over again (you get the idea), and also to add an element of time pressure to the game. With (hopefully user defineable) turn timers implemented, another great element would be added to the simulation.

Papa

[Guest Kinch]

I am an advocate of turn timers. The option

should exist for players to agree on their

use and subsequent settings. Even for

battles vs the AI and email, they add a new

and different element to the game. As a chess player, I used them all the time. So you can see where I am coming from. Different

time controls produced a different styles of

chess - all with merit. Again, timers can be used as an option.

BTW, there was at least one spirited thread

on timers back around January. There seems

to be more opposed to timers back then. Perhaps they all have their CDs now and are busy playing.

- Kevin

[PanzerShark]

Wow, didn't know this post would cause such an impact

I agree on most parts about why we should have tcp/ip. I do not think tcp/ip is THE selling point of CM though. I don't think BTS will sell more copies if they are adding it. If tcp/ip would be that important then it would have been in there "from the box" and not later using a patch.

From my own experience: I was going to buy Vampire the Masquerade. Unfortunately after playing the demo i noticed that the fighting-scenes could not be paused. This means it turned into a click-fest. The company behind this game say they are bringing out a patch which WILL introduce a pause-feature. I am not going to buy this game UNLESS this patch has seen the daylight AND actually works the way the claim it will.

Now i am a very patient player , and i am willing to wait until this patch arrives. But i am NOT the entire gaming-public and many people won't wait till this patch arrives and will look for something else. This means less saled, which could be prevented when this feature was in from the start.

Also i am always a bit carefull when i am told patches will fix certain things. Take Ultima 9. I have many friends that bought the game although it was very bugged. Origin told customers they would create a "mega-patch" that would solve ALL these problems. After this patch was released many problems however still existed.

To end this part: I would personaly NEVER buy a game because the patch that i REALLY need will be released. Also, magazines do not review a game with this patch since it hasn't been released.

If many people need this tcp/it thingy then BTS is kind enough to listen to it's customers. BUT if they think this is a major selling-point, i think it would already been there.

About the realism part (yes i am not finished )

It is true that the way i play is not realistic. Ofcourse commanders didn't have 30 minutes or more to order their units. BUT the reason why i prefer turn-based games over rts-games is BECAUSE i have the time to think about my strategy. Let's face it, NO one can give orders to over about 50 units in 3 minutes. This means you have to click your butt off turning this game into a...rts

Now this ofcourse is the way I don't like to play and seeing from the amount of replies many people DO like it. There's nothing wrong with that. But if we are talking about realism then even a turn with a timer set to 3 minutes is unrealistic.

I like to see my man perform actions the way i tell them, i want them to follow the orders i give them. I simply do not have the time to do this in 3 minutes. This means certain actions are performed by my man automatically. Ofcourse killing a Tiger that way brings joy and happiness BUT when YOU gave them that order, and not teh AI, then you do not only feel this joy BUT ALSO pride, because YOUR plan actually worked.

Another long post that was ment to be 3 sentences...not good...i'm starting to ramble

[kipanderson]

Hi,

for me TCP/IP matters. I want to play head-to-head as fast as possible. Yes some turns will take time but others will be done in a minute or two. The great thing about CM, or rather one of many great things, is the quality of the AI. This means that a game V the computer is still good fun but live play against a human must still be tops, for me anyway.

All the best,

Kip.

PS I also hope to finish games in one sitting, it may take a few hours but I believe it will be possible.

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