TO&E Bugs, Oversights, Quibbles, Opinions and Suggestions Thread

[DanonQM]

Oversights

- BfN and FI Canadian formations have an incorrect allocation of ammunition for their Sten or Thompson SMGs, at least from '44 onwards, (honestly I'd be surprised if it was actually unique to the Canadians considering the close attachments of their supply system to the British one and other CW forces, but that's neither here nor there) as Canadian documentation from 1944 shows an allocation of 600 rounds per SMG in ten magazines, for both Stens and Thompsons. Now, that would be a bit much for a fighting load in CM, especially seeing as half of the rounds would be loose, but at least something in mid-200s to 300 should be considered, and would bring them up to par with other common per SMG ammo loads. Source: http://www.bayonetstrength.uk/BritishArmy/BritInfBn/Org of the British Inf Bn 1938-45.pdf pg.41, sadly I haven't managed to find an online accessible version of the original Canadian documents but they're listed in the sources at the end of the bayonetstrength doc. 
- Similarly, BfN and FI British Airborne formations have a (probably) incorrect allocation of ammunition for their Sten guns, and for their Bren gun. Now, the Brits didn't write down personal ammunition loads in their war establishments for the parachute battalions after May 1942, but given the tendency for ammunition carried to go up rather than down it should at least give us a baseline, and by '42 standards British Paras are currently short a magazine each, at (around) 224-230 rounds per gun instead of 256. In other words a section with seven Stens should have ~1792 rounds of 9mm, instead of the given 1607. That's not a nothing when vast swathes of your paras are going to be packing Stens and you depend on them for your staying power as a unit, an extra mag each goes a long way at that point. This would also fit with the logic of the seven magazine Sten bandoliers seen sometimes during the late war as 256 comes out to 8 mags, seven in the bandolier and one with the weapon. They are also short on their Bren Gun allocation by about 210 or so rounds (slightly more if they've brought a PIAT as the have less .303 and an additional Enfield in the section, which was supposed to maintain 1000 rounds with the gun as a matter of course. Source: https://web.archive.org/web/20190727204718/http://warestablishments.net/Great Britain/Airborne/Parachute Battalion May 1942.pdf
- BfN and FI British Bren Gunners should have their pistols removed as a rule, the practice of Bren gunners being issued with sidearms was short lived and dropped by '43, and as a gameplay function they usually simply result in strange behaviour as Bren gunners (whose automatic firepower is vital to their section's efficacy) refuse to reload their weapons in close quarters firefights until they have emptied the cylinder of their revolver ineffectually at the foe. Source: http://www.bayonetstrength.uk/BritishArmy/BritInfBn/Org of the British Inf Bn 1938-45.pdf pg.27

Quibbles
- BfN and FI British and Commonwealth forces need a thorough looking at with regard to a comparative lack of binoculars compared to practically every other nation. Section leaders I won't comment on as I honestly don't think I've encountered any reference to binoculars being used by any squad level line infantry leadership from any belligerent in WWII with great regularity, but Company 2iC teams, Recce Regiment Troop 2iCs, Armoured Car Regiment Support Sections, Scout teams, and similar ommissions are pretty egregious. These teams either contain officers of not insubstantial rank (and in the 2iC section cases, armed only with a sidearm so it's not like they're busy carrying anything else) or are specialised to perform reconnaissance, I think it is reasonable to give them binoculars, even if some substantive evidence exists they were not issued them officially, as a similar gameplay concession as the (entirely ahistorical) presence of radios at the platoon level in German formations. I assume that a substantial amount of this is probably actually a result of an Oversight more than anything, to do with loadouts being inherited from the section leaders or similar and thus coming with their similar lack of binoculars, but it is still just a hair closer to the opinion side of things so I'm lodging it as a Quibble. 

[Vanir Ausf B]

7 hours ago, Bulletpoint said:

Both are missing. I'm ok with one of them only appearing if I have the the module, but both are missing in QBs, while one of them is there in the scenario editor.

Buy the module.

[Bulletpoint]

5 minutes ago, Vanir Ausf B said:

Buy the module.

Thanks, but I'd rather just have back what I paid for when I bought the base game. The KT used to be available.

[Vanir Ausf B]

2 minutes ago, Bulletpoint said:

The KT used to be available.

Like I said, the missing Porsche KT in QBs is a bug. If you want a refund you need to contact BFC's customer support.

[Bulletpoint]

1 minute ago, Vanir Ausf B said:

Like I said, the missing Porsche KT in QBs is a bug. If you want a refund you need to contact BFC's customer support.

And like I said, I'm fine with the module being necessary for one of the variants. Pay more, get more. Fine.

But how long has this bug been logged? Years have come and gone, with many different games and patches released, yet nobody at BFC has yet bothered to put a checkmark in the box that makes this vehicle available again.

[Vanir Ausf B]

Just now, Bulletpoint said:

And like I said, I'm fine with the module being necessary for one of the variants. Pay more, get more. Fine.

Which is, in fact, the case.

Just now, Bulletpoint said:

But how long has this bug been logged?

November.

[Bulletpoint]

1 minute ago, Vanir Ausf B said:

2 minutes ago, Bulletpoint said:

And like I said, I'm fine with the module being necessary for one of the variants. Pay more, get more. Fine.

Which is, in fact, the case.

I don't believe you don't understand what the issue is here.

[Vanir Ausf B]

4 minutes ago, Bulletpoint said:

I don't believe you don't understand what the issue is here.

I understand there is a bug you have reported and that I have logged in BFCs bug tracker. I also understand you have an axe to grind that seems to go far beyond one missing unit. I just have no interest in that.

[Bulletpoint]

Just now, Vanir Ausf B said:

I understand there is a bug you have reported and that I have logged in BFCs bug tracker. I also understand you have an axe to grind that seems to go far beyond one missing unit. I just have no interest in that.

Correct on the first, but I have no axe to grind. Just didn't like being told to "buy the module" to fix the bug.

[Vanir Ausf B]

6 minutes ago, Bulletpoint said:

Correct on the first, but I have no axe to grind. Just didn't like being told to "buy the module" to fix the bug.

What?!  No. The bug has nothing to do with the module. I told you to buy the module to get the Henschel KT, which you had claimed was also missing. It's only missing because you don't have the module.

Edited April 29, 2021 by Vanir Ausf B

[Bulletpoint]

5 minutes ago, Vanir Ausf B said:

What?!  No. The bug has nothing to do with the module. I told you to buy the module to get the Henschel KT, which you had claimed was also missing. It's only missing because you don't have the module.

I think we might be speaking past each other. I'm fine with the Henschel KT not being in the base game. I thought you meant that I could just buy the module to get back the missing Porsche version.

The bug does have something to do with the module though. At least I'm told that the people who have the module don't have the bug.

Edited April 29, 2021 by Bulletpoint

[Vanir Ausf B]

Just now, Bulletpoint said:

I thought you meant that I could just buy the module to get back the Porsche version.

No.

Just now, Bulletpoint said:

The bug does have something to do with the module though. At least I'm told that the people who have the module don't have the bug.

Either you misunderstood or they were mistaken. The Porsche KT is missing from QBs for everyone.

[Bulletpoint]

1 minute ago, Vanir Ausf B said:

Either you misunderstood or they were mistaken. The Porsche KT is missing from QBs for everyone.

Alright, I see. My post was based on a misunderstanding then. I thought the bug only affected people who didn't own Market Garden.

[Vanir Ausf B]

Nah, I don't see it and I have all the Normandy content installed. I think people are conflating the two KTs. The Porsche KT specifically says "Porsche" and is only available in July and August.

Edited April 29, 2021 by Vanir Ausf B

[Vanir Ausf B]

2 hours ago, Bulletpoint said:

The KT used to be available.

A small correction to my earlier statement. The Porsche KT is not a base game unit. It's in the Commonwealth Forces module. The Henschel KT is in the Market Garden module.

[Bulletpoint]

22 minutes ago, Vanir Ausf B said:

A small correction to my earlier statement. The Porsche KT is not a base game unit. It's in the Commonwealth Forces module. The Henschel KT is in the Market Garden module.

True. Also a correction to my statement: I have the base game plus the Commonwealth Forces module. So that's why I'm getting the Porsche KT in scenarios but unfortunately not in quick battles.

[EvilTwinn]

For Cold War: In Quick Battles, the Soviets cannot get the tank company assigned to their motor rifle battalion task forces. They are present in the Scenario Editor, but that doesn't particularly matter. Considering these are by far the most common unit in the Soviet military, it's physically heartbreaking that we can't use the most common units in most multiplayer games.

[chuckdyke]

In Red Thunder mortar teams. The HQ without radio, let him advance out of sight. Somehow, he can contact the mortar section HQ with a radio and call missions. Keep the section HQ with the radio near the mortars. The C2 is a little cryptic at times. There are numerous ways this could be done, flares for example. The HQ briefs the mortar section HQ which map reference upon arriving he confirms the mission with a flare. Or when he calls the mission, they use a runner. Which explains the longer period. I keep the mortar HQ close to a unit with a radio. Tanks are the usual means for the Soviets to have some sort of C2 going. 

[DanonQM]

Think you might have posted in the wrong thread chuck. 

[chuckdyke]

On 4/30/2021 at 12:30 AM, DanonQM said:

Oversights

I am sorry what is the definition of 'oversights'? . (An unintentional omission or mistake.) For me it is not clear how the C2 operates in Red Thunder. Hard to tell what a bug in the game is. 

[DanonQM]

Ah, okay, I think (it's frankly hard to tell mate, I'd really appreciate if you could work on being a bit more concise and clear in your language) what you mean to say is that Red Thunder Soviet Mortar Platoon (?) HQs can call for fire from outside C2 range when they do not have radios. I think this might be intentional as a way to simulate use of flares, runners or other non-wireless communication methods, as a number of other units lacking radios but in command positions in other titles (like British company and battalion 2iC teams in BfN and FI) can do the same. What's more curious is that a number of other formations that reasonably could use such a system instead receive ahistorical radios, such as German platoon HQ teams. 

Edited May 10, 2021 by DanonQM

[akd]

1 hour ago, DanonQM said:

Ah, okay, I think (it's frankly hard to tell mate, I'd really appreciate if you could work on being a bit more concise and clear in your language) what you mean to say is that Red Thunder Soviet Mortar Platoon (?) HQs can call for fire from outside C2 range when they do not have radios. I think this might be intentional as a way to simulate use of flares, runners or other non-wireless communication methods, as a number of other units lacking radios but in command positions in other titles (like British company and battalion 2iC teams in BfN and FI) can do the same.

The only thing the game looks for when requesting support is if a member of the unit is qualified to call for support.  The only effect radios / c2 has on the system is that on-map indirect fire units must either be in C2 up to a higher HQ or have a radio themselves / be co-located with a vehicle with radio.

Quote

What's more curious is that a number of other formations that reasonably could use such a system instead receive ahistorical radios, such as German platoon HQ teams. 

Are you referencing something specific here?  If you mean in the standard infantry formation (grenadier battalion), radio men were located in the Company HQ.

[chuckdyke]

10 minutes ago, akd said:

The only thing the game looks for when requesting support is if a member of the unit is qualified to call for support.  The only effect radios / c2 has on the system is that on-map indirect fire units must either be in C2 up to a higher HQ or have a radio themselves / be co-located with a vehicle with radio.

Ok things have changed in Fire and Rubble. The Regimental HQ is higher up than his FO. Still the regimental HQ is not allowed to call in fire missions. 

[Sgt Joch]

57 minutes ago, chuckdyke said:

Ok things have changed in Fire and Rubble. The Regimental HQ is higher up than his FO. Still the regimental HQ is not allowed to call in fire missions. 

 

That is correct based on Soviet doctrine at that time.

[chuckdyke]

1 minute ago, Sgt Joch said:

That is correct based on Soviet doctrine at that time.

So, he can't give orders to his FO? How come they can call in fire missions at all? He should be able to quote the map coordinates and let his FO call the mission without the FO having eyes on the objective. If you lose the FO, you may as well pack it in in this battle. I can accept that they have only one link, but more spotters should be able to spot for the spotter. Anyway, it is a game, but the devil is in the detail. I would appreciate references of Soviet doctrine. Happy gaming.