Morale - strange behavior

[George MC]

25 minutes ago, bruno2016 said:

Interesting. The only difference i see between the 75mm or 20 mm gun shield with the fromt MG shield is the side (to some extent) or all around protection. The thickness is still 8 mm or so, at keast not more than the MG shield. 
so why, thru the front covered arc, wld MG gunners be more vulnerable? i really question the design behind the AI

I'm not sure where the 8mm reference comes from? 

The V-shaped MG shield on the bog standard 251 was 12mm thick and slightly sloped.

The gun shield on the 251/17 was sloped 10mm thick armour plate - so proof against bullets/shell splinters and all round protection - maybe less ATR rounds. The later versions of the 251/9 has a higher all round armoured shield that again protected the gunner/loader and commander from small arms fire (can't find detail re thickness but from images the armour plate looks to be around 10-12mm thick). So both vehicles give all round protection to the gun crews manning the weapon. Hence I'd expect better protection (although they are not immune especially at close range) to small arms fire.

[bruno2016]

32 minutes ago, George MC said:

I'm not sure where the 8mm reference comes from? 

The V-shaped MG shield on the bog standard 251 was 12mm thick and slightly sloped.

The gun shield on the 251/17 was sloped 10mm thick armour plate - so proof against bullets/shell splinters and all round protection - maybe less ATR rounds. The later versions of the 251/9 has a higher all round armoured shield that again protected the gunner/loader and commander from small arms fire (can't find detail re thickness but from images the armour plate looks to be around 10-12mm thick). So both vehicles give all round protection to the gun crews manning the weapon. Hence I'd expect better protection (although they are not immune especially at close range) to small arms fire.

Yes my bad  10-12 mm. and the late superstructure added on top of the 251/9 as i said was a good protection from the side. 
and yes none of them were immune to small arms when using the weapon.

my point actually was, in the front CA, all 3 shields give an equivalent protection. Why then make the MG gunner more vulnerable?

 

 

[George MC]

3 hours ago, bruno2016 said:

Yes my bad  10-12 mm. and the late superstructure added on top of the 251/9 as i said was a good protection from the side. 
and yes none of them were immune to small arms when using the weapon.

my point actually was, in the front CA, all 3 shields give an equivalent protection. Why then make the MG gunner more vulnerable?

 

 

I've found MG gunners (mind there is a slot in the front of the gun shield whilst the other weapon systems the crew are more covered and sue optics to spot) can survive if the MG SPW is sued at range - 500m generally works well, as you get closer the chances of the gunner being KIA increase. More so if facing something like a MG. Close range all bets are off, but then they can often take fire from the flanks.

I guess my issue is, as and when, the gunner is KIA someone else pops up and takes his place. This can lead to, in some situations, all the passengers taking their turn to being killed whilst manning the MG. That is what I find challenging. Now easy way to avoid this is not use SPW in this situation. I can can live with MG gunners being KIA especially at close range - as the gun shield whilst offering some cover still has a big slot in the front. There is a whole wider debate about using SPW and their role so no point in rehashing that here. I'd just like the tac AI to decide you know what manning this MG is getting people killed so I'll stop doing it. But I'm not sure the AI is maybe up to that assessing that context.

[Bulletpoint]

6 hours ago, George MC said:

As an aside I have the KG Muhlenkamp book and a lot of the time all the crew in SPW appear to be keeping their heads well down. You don't see many MG gunners manning the weapon. When you do seem them manning the weapon then judging by other crews' position less likely threat.

The problem with halftrack gunners is that they are placed too high. They should have their eye level with the MG sights, looking down the barrel. So, more of the head pokes up over the gun shield than it should.

[RockinHarry]

21 hours ago, George MC said:

I tend to keep em in cover as long as I can. As and when they move they do so 'fats' and to next level of cover. If hostile fire a possibility then I make sure the hostile area is under suppressing fire or smoke covered. I've found if using German SPW to engage then 251/9s and 251/17 are reasonably bullet resistance i.e. crew less likely to be KOd. MG armed SPW need to stay back around 500m, if going closer then shield pointing at threat BUT likely you'll end up loosing gunners.

As an aside I have the KG Muhlenkamp book and a lot of the time all the crew in SPW appear to be keeping their heads well down. You don't see many MG gunners manning the weapon. When you do seem them manning the weapon then judging by other crews' position less likely threat. @RockinHarry had a wee mod that made some difference IIRC (not wanting to derail your thread on tank bailouts) so I'll link to the thread on SPW in an edit and when I find it.

@George MC does that file swap still work? IIRC that animation file change since was implemented with any the V4 WW2 titles, but I could err. Original seat stance in HT´s was replaced with one from kubel/jeep driver, which is lil bit lower. Overall effect (vulnerability) wasn´t much, but noticeable.

[George MC]

Hi @RockinHarry I've mislaid it. I had some issues with my install (not related) and ended up doing a brand new install. But along the way of doing that I inadvertantly seem to have deleted your mod. You don't happen to still have it do you? When I used it I did notice a difference for sure. I think the German MG gunner profile has been lowered. Not sure about the passengers profile - I'd have to compare and contrast. If you do still have it any chance you could send it over please?

Ta muchly!

[com-intern]

Yea the crew profile in half-tracks is a huge issue for their survivability. I've been hoping that we would see an update in one of the new modules fix it for at least that game but no luck so far it seems.

[RockinHarry]

1 hour ago, George MC said:

Hi @RockinHarry I've mislaid it. I had some issues with my install (not related) and ended up doing a brand new install. But along the way of doing that I inadvertantly seem to have deleted your mod. You don't happen to still have it do you? When I used it I did notice a difference for sure. I think the German MG gunner profile has been lowered. Not sure about the passengers profile - I'd have to compare and contrast. If you do still have it any chance you could send it over please?

Ta muchly!

Hey @George MC I´m at my old computer ATM and can´t access dropbox (obsolete browser stuff), but I found the links to the files in that older thread and still valid.

 

[George MC]

Ah brill cheers ta

I’ll check em out tomorrow. 

Thanks for digging this out. 
 

Cheery!