Off topic!!! BUT THIS I THINK IS WORTH SHARING !!!!!

[Spook]

Jackhammer:

You can state to Fionn that you vehemently disagree with him. Or you can state like GreasyPig did in that you think Fionn is wrong.

But personal insults are out of line here, regardless of your views or Fionn's. So keep it civil.

Anyway, Fionn, I will agree with your concept of "realpolitik" as often applies to the US federal government's foreign policy, and as is typically the case for most other nation's governments too. And I state this even as a federal employee for the last 13 years and likely having a little bit more know on internal federal affairs than you do (at least for the Dept of Defense & USAF).

But now recalling two of your earlier quotes, the first on your view to US "isolationism":

Nope. I would be DELIGHTED if the US would simply become isolationist again (as it has usually been). I would be even MORE delighted if US citizens would stop peddling some stupid line about being the world's guardian and "leading" us little ones in the rest of the world "along the path of goodness". It is EXTREMELY patronising and blinkered.

As a nitpick here, Fionn, you should've used the phrase "certain US citizens" instead of "US citizens" if you wish not to be accused of making your own generalizations here. But the main point of the quote above is a comparison to your quote below from another topic (the NMD debate):

This whole ABM thing is just a big populist smokescreen. In reality you'd do a lot better to GIVE the billions of dollars to the regions from which fundamentalists who might use these things arise and try to create employment and better living standards. It is well known that any society in which jobs are plentiful and freedom of thought is allowed very rarely generates terrorists. Of course, such an EFFECTIVE solution isn't "mass media" and "populist thought"-friendly and so isn't going to be enacted.

Don't you think that it's a bit of a contradiction to expect that a nation taking a more "isolationist" stance would be more inclined to dole out money to help the peoples of other nations to improve to higher living standards?

As a recent example on the subject of "meddling with the world", for the past two days, the US media has been playing up the African AIDS crisis in the Sub-Sahara where an estimated 15 million have died and up to 25 million more may be infected and soon marked for death. The recurring theme seems to be that not enough was done years ago internally and in worldwide support that MIGHT have made a difference. The more isolationist tack would be, "Hey, you people in Africa 'screwed' yourselves into this mess, so go bail yourselves out." But left alone to the individual governments of the African republics, would that be enough? The president of South Africa even recently stated that he isn't convinced yet of a connection between HIV and AIDS.

Again, Fionn, I will agree that much of US foreign policy is done in typical self-interest. And there have been plenty of tedious, presumptuous, "lecture" speeches from Clinton, Albright, and other high-ranking US officials that will easily feed your ire with "US foreign policy pontification." But your view that the USA should become more isolationist again is an obsolescent one, IMO. With the recent rapid advances in information-sharing and technologies, and also the recent major changes in interational markets, economies, conflicts, and political alliances, I think it stands better for the USA to better "engage" the world (though perhaps on a more humble note) than to isolate from it.

Regards,

Ed

[Fionn]

Jackhammer,

Always a pleasure to meet someone as lucid and rational as yourself . As others have said in response to your post... It is exactly the sort of viewpoint and "**** you" attitude which you espouse which is what others object to.

Lastly, I'll note that I never said I "hated America". I said that I didn't like people representing America's foreign policy as being morally and ethically based when I believe it is based purely on pragmatic, realpolitik and as such merely utilises massacres etc to "motivate" the civies and troops.

Jackhammer stated

[Fionn]

Spook,

1.

[Titan]

OH Simon Fox!!!! Well it just goes to show how ignorant you are,if you think NZ is that far behind.

Tech,wise we are up their with Aussie and the States.We have one of the most advanced banking systems in the world.

Hey i hear the Aussies just introduced GST.

well we had that 13 years ago.

Also Australian's mental aptitude,is far behind us,Simon you lot havent even advanced beyond that level when the Pom's dropped the first Batch of future Aussies of on the beach a few hundred years ago.

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"Some people don't see the light until they first feel the heat"

[Simon Fox]

What was that? Banking?

Sounded like something else.

Your gonna have to do a lot better than that Titan. You must really be a lackey of the capitalist running dogs since you have the same sense of irony (nil). Get JonS in here then we can have a goodnatured Aussie vs Kiwi stoush and liven up this dumb thread.

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"Pink Floyd, a load of old twaddle"-John Lydon

[This message has been edited by Simon Fox (edited 07-12-2000).]

[Guest MantaRay]

You know what pisses me off the most about this whole thread????? The fact that most of you are trying to minimize all of the good things we as a country have done for other countries.

Who the hell cares if we are doing it to keep our oil, or because those in charge are courting votes!!!! Isn't the real thing to care about just the fact that we are the ONLY country to get off of our fat asses and give a **** about some piss ant little country in Africa that is ruled with an iron hand, or a ****ed little country like Bosnia that hasn't had the guts or brains to not take their orders from some insane Hitler wannabe.

Maybe it would be different if your country was the one this stuff was happening to eh?

And funny how no one has said that the USA stuck it's nose where it didnt belong in WWII. If it wasnt for America sending supplies and arms, the UK would have possibly staved to death, or run out of critical materials and been faced with a German invasion all on it's own. And even if UK didnt fall to the Axis, like you guys would have been a real threat to the Atlantic wall, there by giving Germany more time to hold back the Russians.

And if it wasnt for us, Germany would still be a Russian territory, with West Berlin never existing.

Ok, now off rhe soap box for me, but I must add that if your countries were any better, why don't your countries have people dying to come to your country. Never hear of boatloads of people trying to get into Ireland. I guess in a way you are lucky to NOT be the biggest, baddest, and by far the most powerful country on this earth.

Ray

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When asked, "How many moves do you see ahead?", CAPABLANCA replied: "One move - the best one."

New CM Site. In process of switching. Brought to you by Hardcore Gamers Daily

Hardcore Gamers Daily

[GreasyPig]

Fionn

Please sir, point out where I have stated generalities about your country or people. Show me where I have lumped your countrymen into the cesspool you’ve advertised as American.

I politely ask you to quantify “a LOT” in “a LOT of Americans seem to think”.

Do you mean ALL Americans?

All most all,

most all,

more than half?

OR is it really just the few?

Because Fionn, I am a WHITE, fairly young American. AND I can assure you I understand the meaning of “BIGOT”. The term is shoved down my throat every other day in local and world news, past and present. Your generalizations certainly “could” meet the definition.

I am now genuinely curious.

You SEEM to be an adult, capable of LOGICAL reason. If these two characterizations are true, then aren’t your statements more than a little broad? Honestly “a LOT”???

And if your answer is NO.

Then sir, you are a Bigot. You have stereotyped Americans just the same as if I’d of said you’re a “typical snotty European Prick” .

If your answer is YES which I hope it is, I ask you or any anyone: Why the animosity toward Americans?? REALLY??

Jackhammer’s comments don’t really help anyone’s cause. BUT, listen too him and exclude anything “American” in his post. He sounds like a young man ready to fight for his country. Is there really anything wrong with that? Other than its posted here in a gaming community, BUT this thread didn’t exactly call for a bipartisan reply either. Scoff at him fine. I can’t say approve of his language either. But in the end, if I were in a fox-hole/ WHEN I was in that fox-hole I wouldn’t have chosen anyone LESS enthusiastic than him to be my “Ranger Buddy”.

GreasyPig

Man I’m I tanked.

[killmore]

I wish this thread was closed before any opinions were stated - including mine.

Now:

Involvement in Yugoslavia was in order to stop YUG goverment from supporting/being supported by Russia. (and becoming ally)

USA is needed to balance the world, it cannot be isolationist. We need more powers like USA. If EU, India, Brasil, Japan, and something is africa become "world powers" US will be able to become isolationist without much harm to USA.

USA is actively working to gain control over everything - this counter balances bunch of other countries.

When you talk about US aid (earthquake), news almost never tells you that other countries sent also aid. Or this fact is convieniently forgotten. US does not sent aid to earthquake victims in China. (well it didn't years ago)

I would MUCH rather live under USA rule then Soviet or Chinese. It is better system.

I lived in Canada, USA, Poland and Soviet Union. - I got understanding of all these countries and their systems.

Canada is as much "colony" of USA as Poland was "colony" of Soviet Union.

It is much better to live in US "colony" then in "colony" of USRR.

USA propaganda is as bad as USRR was.

Communism did "some" good to the world including USA. A lot of "socialist" policies were introduced to decrease lure of Communism. (See "Will Durant - The lessons of history"). Example: Health/old age policies.

USA runs on darwinism/natural selection - strong survive, weak/sick die, because they often cannot pay for all of their medicines. This makes USA population strong, healthy and productive. Lazy/stupid people ussually don't make a lot of money in USA. Also it creates natural selection which makes USA stronger. I like this but I feel sorry for some people, they don't get many chances.

Some bright but poor people don't get many chances in USA.

(then again poor people frequently have more children so may be I am wrong)

I am not saying that poor people in USA are stupid/lazy.

I gotta go - bye! (flame me later...)

[This message has been edited by killmore (edited 07-12-2000).]

[GreasyPig]

Fionn,

I am happy to see that you and Spook have come to a semi agreement. I hope that we can soon.

Though, again I would like to clarify your statement: “I was referring only to CERTAIN citizens”

What certain citizens are these? It seems these “citizens” are influential to your contempt of the USA. How is this so? How can one who is TRULY impartial, logically derive a statement like: “MY point is that a LOT of Americans seem to think that the world is crying out to be "led" by America in a crusade to right wrongs etc etc” from just “certain citizens”. Understand, my American English defines certain in the context used as specific, individual, particular.

So I ask you..

Are you using just these few “citizens” as your basis for your beliefs/comments?

Isn’t that the definition of stereotyping?

We could go on and on about the implications of these comments. But why.

So to recap, considering your last posts:

American is evil (just like everyone else) But Americans are different because well.. they are arrogant, under educated idiots because Fione knows some “CERTAIN CITIZENS” to provide evidence.

Please Fionn respond. Tell me what truely stems your animosity toward US.

Seriously..

GreasyPig

Loaded and pissed off at the All-Star game

[Jeff Heidman]

What I see as the real problem with the oh-so-poular USA bashing that people like Fionn espouse, is that it is rooted in a desire to justify their own apathy as opposed to any real objection to US foreign policy.

This rather cynical and jaded view that the US is just like everyone else, and only does things when it is in their best interest, blah, blah, blah, is completely missing the point. I wonder if they are willing to apply that same standard to themselves. When they claim that the US is just the same as some other country, are they as willing to say that *their* country is just the same as some other country, say, Japan in 1936? Or is their logic only useful to drag the US down to their level, but not useful to dragging them down to some other level?

The reality is that despite some efforts to make it seem so, not all countries are the same. Not all countries have identical and cynical motivations. The range is large, from totally aggressive and immoral examples like Nazi Germany to relatively idealistic countries like the US and many of our allies.

The Marshall Plan is touted by both sides as ammunition. Those who spend a lot of time finding fault with anything American hold it up as example of what they find so despicable. The US trying to appear generous when really all they want is to stop the Russkies.

But they fail almsot immediately. Sure, it was in the US bests interests to have a block to the USSR in Japan, Germany, and Western Europe in general. But how they went about doing that that illustrates what it is that makes the US relatively unique in history. The USSR wanted that same block against the West, and they went about getting it in the historical manner. They subjugated Eastern Europe by force and created client states. The US could have done something similar, but instead they invested vast quantities of money to enable countries like Germany enter the group of Westernized democracies. And for that they get vilified. If you are so sure that the US is the same as everyone else, go ask a Pole whether he would rather live under Soviet rule. Lets see if he tells you that, yes, its all the same.

If the US has an interest somewhere (Kuwait), and they get involved, they are nothing more than money-grubbing imperialists. If the US does not have an interest somewhere (Yugoslavia, Somalia) and they get involved, they are sticking their nose where it does not belong. If the US just plain does not get involved at all (Hitu massacres) they are obviously failures at their idealism, so should go back to being isolationist.

Curiously, you never here from these US haters when it happens to be them, personally, taking advantage of US help.

In the end, it is simple. The US, for whatever reason of history, has become one of a few countries in the world with both the inclination and the means to try to make a difference. Many hate the fact that they do nothing, so they spend their time trying to drag down the efforts of others who are trying to do something. The US is far from perfect, but the demands of the detractors is either perfection or nothing. Since perfection is not attainable, they demand apathy.

I, for one, am damn proud of what my country has accomplished in its short life. I refuse to accede to demands that I ignore, demean, and even reverse those accomplishments for the sake of political correctness or false humility. Right here, right now, today, the US has done much to make the world a better place to live for millions of people, and not just Americans. Just because we fail sometimes, maybe even often, at living up to the ideals that made this country what it is is no reason to abandon those ideals.

Jeff Heidman

Note: This post is specifically about the US. If I did not mention the many contributions made by other countries, it is not because I do not recognize them, but simply because it was not relevant in this context.

[jackhammer]

i want to apologize to everyone on the board for my unfortunate use of words. i was in a bad mood and when i read fionn's comments i just saw red. my beef with fionn is that anytime a thread discusses the usa fionn is ALWAYS denigrating the u.s. of course the u.s tends to act in accordance with its interests, so does every other country. what i hate is when people such as fionn ignore or minimize the great humanitarian contributions this country has made. in the last several years we have sent a ton of money and food to places such as bosnia, somalia,bangladesh,sierra leone etc,places in which we have very little interests, votes, or money. sure the u.s. sometimes sticks its nose in places where it doe not belong but imho,the good it does far outweighs the bad. as for the contention that the atrocities in kosovo were badly overblown, yes it certainly looks that way. however the american gov't and press were not solely responsible for this. the euro press was reporting the same thing. england thought it was so bad blair was pressing for ground force intervention. the bottom line is that we bombed in an effort to end atrocities. as for smack's charge that we leave guys like saddam in power to justify our large military, that is just plain dumb. as for why we don't bomb china, we can only do so much. bombing iraq or serbia is one thing. bombing a country like china which has nukes is another. if we can intervene without starting ww 3 then we will do it. if not then oh well.

[Ubermac]

Oh my God people!!! Wake up and smell the coffee! Can't you people see it?! Isnt it painstakingly clear???

Fionn is in fact a fanatic revolutionary!!!

With his communist rantings he is trying to gather a band of followers to take over the US!!! Somebody stop him!!!! Even though the US is a big fat bully we do not want a "comrade Fionn" in the white house do we!?

It always starts like this..discussions..then someone stands up throwing words around noone understands..next thing ya know...BAM..revolution!

I think i'd better mail Bill..this gotta end.

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And remember kids....dressing up like Hitler in school, is NOT cool!

[BillWoodAgain]

1. The Civil War was all about slavery, but I am not stupid Fionn. Its irradication was not stated until the Emancipation Proclomation after the Battle of Antietam, and even then it was purely pragmatic in that the US declared all slaves in the rebelious South to be free while no mention was made of the slaves in the North. And he would never of issued that speech until the Union won a battle, and Antietam was the first major "near Washington" battle the Union won. The Gettysburg Address solidified this modus operandi while iluminating the desire that we needed to reconcile and rebuild, a speech when he first publically mentioned his Reconstruction policy.

The need to end slavery was the underlying goal of the Civil War, unstated but gradually as Lincoln was smart enough to ease Americans into that view face to face as he did not need a further fractured nation.

Fionn, you are the first to point finger at those throwing blatant ad Hominim attacks, but you are obviously educated (how does an Irishman find the time for that and clevery hide your barbs in grammatical and subtle constructs. You implied I was a dumbass, when in fact you know nothing of who I am except that I disagree with you, or anyone else that disagrees with you.

Americans have morality in its foreign policy. This is not a niave statement, it is a statement based on the truth and the history. It is niave to think the US is just like every other country, as we are not. If so, then Europe would be under the domination of either Germany or the Soviet Union, and Britain would no doubt be occupied, at least partly, by the more than willing Irish, who wanted very badly to fight along side the Nazis.

You want proof of US intentions?

Free Trade.

WW2

WW1

Somalia

Kosovo (btw, Fionn, Archduke Ferdinand, Sarajevo, 1914. The war actually began because of German desire to compete directly with the British Empire, the assination was the spark to light the fire)

We surrendered voluntarily the Phillipines, Pnamam Canal Zone, Occupation of Japan and Germany.

The Internet (why did we just give it away? So Fionn could insult Ameirca and be heard doing it!

Fionn, we are all limited of our view of the world based on our own experiences and education. An open mind sees beyond his own shell. This is an American trait. I pity you for not understanding it or us. The most dangerous mind is the closed mind.

[PD]

I've seen a few things about the Yanks in Yugoslavia, initial & Kosovo, that show up the situation as EuroPolitik & Nato, wirh no garlands to be handed out for anyone's behaviour.

The best in American Foreign Policy was to be seen with George Bush's apparent triumph in the UN, dominating Russia over continued aid payments in response for security council concessions.

George was so happy he proclaimed the USA's new hegemony as the New World Order. He believed that the US was now the premier world power, and could act in it's own best interests.

This is where american generosity shone brightly. As the world leader they went to Somalia as the World's policemen, George's vision of a bright american future.

Unfortunately, UN and US command differences (did you see that stage managed landing?) led to poor intel & a scrubbed mission.

So ended the New World Order, one failed mission and it fell in a heap, leaving no aid for Rwanda.

Gloomy? As has been said, the USA government acts for virtually no interests but it's own.

What makes america different from most other countries are it's citizens.

The wierd, the whacky, the mentally challenged all exist, but for ratings sake, shine brightly in the USA.

A country where people make millions, and aren't shy about giving some away.

Where people signed up to spend part of their lives building infrastructure overseas, just for the chance to experience the world.

Despite all of the negative publicity about the American government being used as an extension of corporate america, it is the american people, who believe in not killing each other, who provide the world with the best example of how the world should live.

[GreasyPig]

Jeff Heidman,

I was going to rebut again this morning but in light of your post (excellent!) I don't believe theres anything left to say.

GP

[Howitzer]

Well, well...I go away for a few days and a skirmish breaks out ...had I read a well balanced, give-and-take discussion I would not be posting. However, most of what I have read sums to this:

"Americans aren't any better than us (imply your nationality here)!"

Fair enough, as individuals we are all created equal. (Gee, didn't I read that in the US Constitution? ) BUT,...

I violently disagree that americans AS A WHOLE aren't more generous than most. Yes, our generosity exists because of the tremendous blessings that have befalling our country. But, NO, it isn't all done for the thanks. If we wanted to be guaranteed some renumeration or obeisance we'd use the government or the military all the time.

As a people, we give of our income to NON-government organizations that help millions around the world, because a majority of americans actually CARE about others! That's the bottomline!

Sure, we have our problems. But, there is no other country on earth, past or present, of which I would want to be a citizen.

God Bless America.

Steve C.

[Smack]

When I said we shouldn't be im Kosovo militarily, I meant no bombing, not no peacekeeping. I believe that the UN should have had troops within Kosovo during the occupation to make sure there was no mass murderings going on.

PD... You seem to forget that many other countries also shine brightly, you say that America shows the world the best example of how to live, isn't right. I know you think that your country is better, but in many cases it's not. It is no better than anyother country, I have lived in the states, and I have lived in Canada. Both have advantages and disadvantages, but the UN rated Canada the number #1 place to live for at least a few years in a row now, America is far behind Canada. I agree with the UN, America seems to me all for the rich and none for the poor. Your healthcare system is wrong, if you don't have the money you don't get the care. In Canada, it doesnt matter if you are rich or poor, you get the same quality treatment, which is good treatment. If Canadian hospitals are filled up for cancer treatments than the Canadian government pays for your stay in the US to get it done. In the states everything is privatly owned, your people aren't equal, it depends on how much money you have, thats sad. America is the number one murder capital in the world, how does that make your country the best example on how to live. When everything depends on how much money you have, your healthcare system is a mess and the UN has just said that Canada is the number one place to live, not America.

Your people are generous, im not saying they are not. The Americans are a good people, but not the American government is only looking out for itself, like most other governments, its not really wrong. Just you should't say America is the best when this is a multi-national board, because everyone is loyal to a different country. America isnt very popular because you say that you are the best all the time, the bad thing is you say it when other countries are listining.

[Jon_S]

Stirring the pot again, huh Simon?

Where's my trout ... ?

Piscatorially yours

Jon

{too busy and distracted to post a 10,000 word essay referencing things that predate the bible}

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Ubique

[Lorak]

Billwood,

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> by the more than willing Irish, who wanted very badly to fight along side the Nazis.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ummm.. I know the Irish had just finished fighting a civil war with England, and many of them looked at the war with favor (but only in that it provided much needed jobs). But I never read of the huge Nazi party in Ireland and the scores of men trying to find passage to Europe to fight along side the Nazi's.

If you could be so kind I'd love to hear the source on that.

Lorak

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"someone you trust is one of us"..........the illuminati

*

http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/combatmissionclub

Lorak's FTX for CM <--Proud member of the Combat Mission Webring

[Londoner]

Missing the point Jeff/Greasypig? I don't no where to start....in fact i won't. An understanding of international order and organisation, the state, and the methodology and paradigms used by acedemics who study these issues around the world would,...to put it mildly, help. Thank god for Fionn et al otherwise i would of wasted alot more time addressing the drivel at the top of this thread. In the meantime keep on bashin that drum, great for abit of stress relief.

[PD]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Smack:

PD... You seem to forget that many other countries also shine brightly, you say that America shows the world the best example of how to live, isn't right. I know you think that your country is better, but in many cases it's not. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Eh? I consider my country streets ahead of the USA, I'm Australian

What I mean is that the USA has the loudest anti-war sentiment around (along with the most militaristic).

I think most (another generalisation) non-americans probably believe that the 'popular version' americans don't deserve to live in America

[Jeff Heidman]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Londoner:

Missing the point Jeff/Greasypig? I don't no where to start....in fact i won't. An understanding of international order and organisation, the state, and the methodology and paradigms used by acedemics who study these issues around the world would,...to put it mildly, help. Thank god for Fionn et al otherwise i would of wasted alot more time addressing the drivel at the top of this thread. In the meantime keep on bashin that drum, great for abit of stress relief.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL. This is even more pathetic than anything Fionn has "enlightened" us with. Yes, clearly us ignorant, peasant Merikuns have not the intellectual capacity to even engage in conversation with the likes of you.

Give me a break. If you do not have the cajones to get into the discussion, at least have the brains to stay out.

Dropping by to insult everyone with your elitist patronizing is a waste of everyone's time, including yours.

Jeff Heidman

[Henri]

Does any other country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo Jet, the

Lockheed Tri-Star, or the Douglas DC10? If so, why don't they fly them? Why do all the International lines except Russia fly American Planes?

__________________________

Gawd, I`m ashamed to be a Canadian in the same country as this ignoramus . This is almost enough to justify Quebec secession...

For cryin' out loud, a few weeks ago, I flew from Toronto to Glasgow on an Air Canada Airbus . Apparently Mr. Sinclair thinks that Airbus airplanes are made by Boeing

I guess Sinclair is hoping to be invited to some US late night show, since Canadian TV dropped him about 40 years ago

Henri

[Guest Mirage2k]

Well, I jumped into this fray kind of late, but I tend to agree with Fionn's "realpolitik" view. Sure, the U.S. has done a lot of great stuff (Marshall Plan, trying to work for peace in the Middle East, and others), but we've had our share of bad stuff (slavery). We're not perfect, and neither is anyone else. The U.S. is generally a benevolent country, and most of the time our foreign policy is centered around the goal to prevent war (Somalia). But we do, of course, have national interests, and those sometimes take center stage. We stick our nose in other people's business because we think we can help, or sometimes just because we can, but I believe that most of the time we have acted for the better, even when we failed (again Somalia, and arguably the former Yugoslavia). We have the means to exert our influence, and that ability, which many nations lack, has undeniably shaped the world. Personally, I think it's been shaped for the better, but of course that's debatable.

Just think of this hypothetical situation. Let's say that Kim Jong-Il dies of a heart attack tomorrow, and the DPRK dissolves into civil war when multiple rival factions within the KPA fight for control of the shattered country. While the UN technically exercises control of military forces in South Korea, China will have a very different idea of how to approach the problem than the US and ROK, while Russia will be primarily interested in keeping out of trouble and not letting China get too dominant. Japan and the ROK also have conflicting interests in the region, as both would like a hand in the new North Korean economy as it rebuilds. The PRC would like the US off of the peninsula, while Japan would use the fall of the DPRK to try to eliminate the American military presence on its own territory, and strengthen its "defensive" forces. My point? If the DPRK falls, there are a variety of sources for conflict in the region, and the UN will, for the most part, be helpless as the key members of the Security Council approach the problem from very different perspectives. Let's not forget that all of this is happening in a region that has (probably) a couple of nuclear weapons. Now who do you want to get a handle on the situation and do something? Let the ROK just go in and take over? That would cause more problems than it would solve. Obviously it is in the best interests of the United States to go in early and get an upper hand in UN negotiations later on (the nuclear issue, prevent Chinese influence, don't let Russia get in a jam, keep the entire peninsula and Japan non-nuclear). And let's not forget the obvious refugee problems a DPRK collapse would bring.

My point is that often the United States has national security/economic issues to take care of. But most of the time these coincide with what most people in the world believe is the greater good. If a country goes into a situation with the ideals of freedom of trade, government, navigation, and a desire for peace, it will help more than it hurts.

-Andrew

PS: I'm an American high school student, and I DO know that WWII started in 1939 (not 1941), when Germany invaded Poland.

[Guest Mirage2k]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Spook:

Anyway, Fionn, I will agree with your concept of "realpolitik" as often applies to the US federal government's foreign policy, and as is typically the case for most other nation's governments too. And I state this even as a federal employee for the last 13 years and likely having a little bit more know on internal federal affairs than you do (at least for the Dept of Defense & USAF).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi, Spook. What is it that you do, anyway? I'll be heading off to college next year, and thinking about studying government/international relations.

-Andrew

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Throw me a frickin' smiley people!