The sturmgeschütz crew and amount of submachine guns

[BornGinger]

In the CM-games, at least in Final Blitzkrieg which I have, the crew in a Sturmgeschütz has only one MP40 submachine gun, for the commander, if the vehicle is a Stug III of the late type while the crew in all other Stug III types doesn't have a submachine gun. The crew in all the different types of a Sturmhaubitze 42 has a submachine gun. Although I trust that Battlefront have made this decision based on what they believe is correct information the video Sturmgeschütz School - Choose the Stug Life shows that there were more than one MP40 for a Stug III crew.

According to a Sturmgeschütz leaflet dated 1943, which explains the responsibilities of all the crew, the loader had also the duty to "always be ready to defend against anti-tank infantry with hand grenades and a submachine gun. Close combat weapons should always be kept at hand" and the leaflet goes on to say about the driver that "For close range defense, he always carries a submachine gun at hand with which he also can shoot out of the observation slit" and "When rolling up trenches and enemy positions he can use his submachine gun to effectively support the commander".

If the crew had to bail out of the tank and destroy it if it couldn't be saved they should carry on as infantry which the leaflet explains with "If you're forced to bail out, don't forget your handguns. Continue as an infantryman".

It is possible that the information Battlefront had when they made the games was different than what is in the leaflet mentioned in the video. Maybe they should look through that information again and if it's possible that not only the crew in a Sturmgeschütz had more than one MP40 they could make changes to the German tank crews in the games.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8w47yYXLFGM

(Didn't find a way to add the video so the link has to do)

 

Edited February 8, 2020 by BornGinger

[DougPhresh]

It's like this with other nations as well. Some Commonwealth accounts and sources have the crew armed with Browning pistols and Stens (Thompsons in Italy), at varying levels. Same with US crews and their SMGs/Carbines.

I kind of like right now where AFV crews may have pistols and SMGs are varying levels if only because it's a compromise since there may not be a definitive solution.

[umlaut]

I remember that when CMBN first was released there was a lot of complaints that bailed out AFV crews were being unrealistically lethal.
I think that BFC perhaps solved that by taking away some of the crews´ weapons (only speculating)

[ASL Veteran]

On 2/8/2020 at 8:08 AM, BornGinger said:

In the CM-games, at least in Final Blitzkrieg which I have, the crew in a Sturmgeschütz has only one MP40 submachine gun, for the commander, if the vehicle is a Stug III of the late type while the crew in all other Stug III types doesn't have a submachine gun. The crew in all the different types of a Sturmhaubitze 42 has a submachine gun. Although I trust that Battlefront have made this decision based on what they believe is correct information the video Sturmgeschütz School - Choose the Stug Life shows that there were more than one MP40 for a Stug III crew.

According to a Sturmgeschütz leaflet dated 1943, which explains the responsibilities of all the crew, the loader had also the duty to "always be ready to defend against anti-tank infantry with hand grenades and a submachine gun. Close combat weapons should always be kept at hand" and the leaflet goes on to say about the driver that "For close range defense, he always carries a submachine gun at hand with which he also can shoot out of the observation slit" and "When rolling up trenches and enemy positions he can use his submachine gun to effectively support the commander".

If the crew had to bail out of the tank and destroy it if it couldn't be saved they should carry on as infantry which the leaflet explains with "If you're forced to bail out, don't forget your handguns. Continue as an infantryman".

It is possible that the information Battlefront had when they made the games was different than what is in the leaflet mentioned in the video. Maybe they should look through that information again and if it's possible that not only the crew in a Sturmgeschütz had more than one MP40 they could make changes to the German tank crews in the games.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8w47yYXLFGM

(Didn't find a way to add the video so the link has to do)

 

A lot of things are put in training manuals and leaflets, but the actual fact of what happens in the heat of battle seldom matches the ideal of what a leaflet might expect.  We have had discussions about what happens when a tank is hit by fire and I've collected as many first hand accounts as I was able to.  Here is just one example of what happens when your AFV is destroyed in battle.  As you hopefully can surmise reaching around and packing your belongings are one of the last things a crewman is thinking about and in most cases a bailing crewmember would likely be completely unarmed.  There are many aspects of the game that is more forgiving than in real life - like the fact that in the game every crewmember who survives the killing hit on the tank gets out.  In many cases that isn't true.  The only instance in which the number of submachine guns being carried in the vehicle would be relevant would be in situations where the crew voluntarily dismounts and does some recon or something while dismounted.

 

After inspecting our target, discussing possible danger spots and driving tactics, we mounted and informed Arno, our gunner, Karl, our loader, and Egon, the radio operator.  Their first combat action was now before them.  Ready to go, ready to fire.  ‘Panzer March!”  Our nerves tight to the breaking point, each alone with his thoughts, complete silence inside the vehicle, only the engine was humming.  So we crawled and crept slowly toward the hill top.  What was waiting for us on the rear slope?  Otto was standing in his hatch.  ‘Slowly, a little higher!  Stop!  Turret three o’clock, aim at the edge of the woods!  Again, nothing, Helmut, let’s go, march!”  I geared up and opened the throttle all the way.  We crested the hilltop.  I spotted the edge of the woods and steered toward its left corner.  We wanted to go around it so we could see what was behind it. 

 

Then, a violent rattle on the outer walls, machine gun and rifle fire.  Our turret MG was firing.  I recognized a rapidly firing enemy machine gun, spotted the flat helmets.  De clutching on the right, aiming the hull MG, firing – all that happened in a flash.  There, at the corner of the woods, enemy soldiers moving a gun into position!  Report to the turret again aiming the hull MG.  Our gun was firing with the Panzer moving at full speed.  ‘Stop! Stop! Back! Back! Faster!’  Otto shouted that order.  I knew the engine was at full speed, it could not go backward any faster.  I turned toward the instruments, we were way past the maximum allowable number of revolutions, the time was sixteen minutes before sixteen hours.  Just as I was about to look out of my sight slit I was blinded by a flash of light.  There was a bang as if a soda pop bottle had smashed into a stone floor.  Hit to the forehead, alive, those were my thoughts.  Then, the Panzer was shaking as if in the grip of a giant fist, brightness, howling, shrieking noises, totally inhuman.  Smell of sulfur, complete silence. 

 

Then Otto’s voice: “Bail out, Panzer’s on fire!”  I unlatched my hatch, pushed it open, it moved only a few centimeters.  Flames immediately blazed through the opening.  The turret skirt sat above.  I saw how Egon, our radio operator, pulled his legs from his hatch.  That was the way.  Across the transmission, the radio, my breath stopped, it was getting so hot, I had to get out, I could not take it anymore.  Far away, a face.  Arms stretching toward me.  Shouts: “Helmut, get out!”  Pulling, ripping, fresh air.  I was outside, jumped off, letting myself drop.  Egon had come back and pulled me out.  Thanks comrade!  Egon helped me to get up, I was standing again.  Bullets whistled by and hit the hull.  We leapt to the side away from the enemy, there was Otto.  What about Arno and Karl?  Otto pointed to the turret, its side hatches were still closed and yelled: “Both were killed outright, I was still inside!”  I could not believe it.  Arno Eltus from Konigsberg in East Prussia, my gunner.  Since Hasselt we had been together with Otto, always in the same Panzer.  We lived through our first actions, victories, always the three of us together.  Now he was gone, just left inside the turret.  What a terrible realization.

 

Dark smoke billowed from the open hatches.  We ran into the direction of our front line.  Suddenly I heard: “Helmut, you’re on fire!”  I rolled on the ground, Otto and Egon helped extinguish the flames.  Again, machine gun bullets were whistling by us.  We ran and ran.  Finally we reached the rear slope, found German soldiers, houses.  A squad of soldiers addressed us but I did not hear or comprehend anything.  I could see but not recognize , felt pain, severely burning pain.  Then it turned all black around me and silent.

[General Jack Ripper]

13 hours ago, umlaut said:

I remember that when CMBN first was released there was a lot of complaints that bailed out AFV crews were being unrealistically lethal.
I think that BFC perhaps solved that by taking away some of the crews´ weapons (only speculating)

It appears we've come full circle.