Guest Pillar Posted October 18, 2000 Share Posted October 18, 2000 Thanks Slapdragon, good post! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest aaronb Posted October 18, 2000 Share Posted October 18, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>research shows that cyber communication is liable for misundestanding because it lacks facial expressions, and smileys, while effective at one time, have become so over used as to be worthless. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> This is a topic near and dear to my heart - and anathema to Peng. (Mr. to those who don't know him well). Do you have a reference for this research? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herr Oberst Posted October 18, 2000 Share Posted October 18, 2000 In the lightest of veins, here is a true professional at work: Man: Is this the right room for an argument? Other Man : (pause) I've told you once. Man: No you haven't! Other Man: Yes I have. M: When? O: Just now. M: No you didn't! O: Yes I did! M: You didn't! O: I did! M: You didn't! O: I'm telling you, I did! M: You didn't! O: (breaking into the developing argument) Oh I'm sorry, is this a five minute argument, or the full half hour? M: Ah! (taking out his wallet and paying) Just the five minutes. O: Just the five minutes. Thank you. Anyway, I did. M: You most certainly did not! O: Now let's get one thing perfectly clear: I most definitely told you! M: Oh no you didn't! (very fast) O: Oh yes I did! M: Oh no you didn't! O: Oh yes I did! M: Oh no you didn't! O: Oh yes I did! M: Oh no you didn't! O: Oh yes I did! M: Oh no you didn't! O: Oh yes I did! M: Oh no you didn't! O: Oh yes I did! M: No you DIDN'T! O: Oh yes I did! M: No you DIDN'T! O: Oh yes I did! M: No you DIDN'T! O: Oh yes I did! M: Oh look, this isn't an argument! (pause) O: Yes it is! M: No it isn't! (pause) M: It's just contradiction! O: No it isn't! M: It IS! O: It is NOT! M: You just contradicted me! O: No I didn't! M: You DID! O: No no no! M: You did just then! O: Nonsense! M: (exasperated) Oh, this is futile!! (pause) O: No it isn't! M: Yes it is! (pause) I came here for a good argument! O: AH, no you didn't, you came here for an *argument*! M: An argument isn't just contradiction. O: Well! it CAN be! M: No it can't! An argument is a connected series of statement intended to establish a proposition. O: No it isn't! M: Yes it is! 'tisn't just contradiction. O: Look, if I *argue* with you, I must take up a contrary position! M: Yes but it isn't just saying "no it isn't". O: Yes it is! M: No it isn't! O: Yes it is! M: No it isn't! O: Yes it is! M: No it ISN'T! Argument is an intellectual process. Contradiction is just the automatic gainsaying of anything the other person says. O: It is NOT! M: It is! O: Not at all! M: It is! >DING!< The Arguer hits a bell on his desk and stops. O: Thank you, that's it. M: (stunned) What? O: That's it. Good morning. M: But I was just getting interested! O: I'm sorry, the five minutes is up. M: That was never five minutes!! O: I'm afraid it was. M: (leading on) No it wasn't..... (pause) O: (dirty look) I'm sorry, I'm not allowed to argue any more. M: WHAT?? O: If you want me to go on arguing, you'll have to pay for another five minutes. M: But that was never five minutes just now! (pause... the Other Man raises his eyebrows) Oh Come on! Oh this is... This is ridiculous! O: I told you... I told you, I'm not allowed to argue unless you PAY! M: Oh all right. (takes out his wallet and pays again.) There you are. O: Thank you. M: (clears throat) Well... O: Well WHAT? M: That was never five minutes just now. O: I told you, I'm not allowed to argue unless you've paid! M: Well I just paid! O: No you didn't! M: I DID!!! O: YOU didn't! M: I DID!!! O: YOU didn't! M: I DID!!! O: YOU didn't! M: I DID!!! O: YOU didn't! M: (unable to talk straight he's so mad) I don't want to argue about it! O: Well I'm very sorry but you didn't pay! M: Ah HAH!! Well if I didn't pay, why are you arguing??? Ah HAAAAAAHHH! Gotcha! O: (pause) No you haven't! M: Yes I have! If you're arguing, I must have paid. O: Not necessarily. I *could* be arguing in my spare time. (tough to format) [This message has been edited by Herr Oberst (edited 10-18-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Splinty Posted October 18, 2000 Share Posted October 18, 2000 Good God!,another Python freak! No he isn,t! Yes he is! etc... ------------------ Nicht Schiessen!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slapdragon Posted October 18, 2000 Author Share Posted October 18, 2000 Aaronb, give me a week or two to track again and I will post a full bib on the research that is being on on Internet Communication. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Heidman Posted October 18, 2000 Share Posted October 18, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Slapdragon: Jeff, everything you said but number three will be taken as it was meant, and number three serving no useful purpose will be ignored.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Which was exactly the point of #3. Guess some things never change. Jeff Heidman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bombardier Posted October 18, 2000 Share Posted October 18, 2000 Slapdragon,, Glad to see you back. A similar event happened to a very good friend of mine. It can be a scary thing of everyone. Great post. Perhaps you should create a “Robert’s Rules of Order” for Forum Rooms. ------------------ “You’ve got it all wrong, son. There’s no such thing as a ‘dangerous weapon.’ There are no dangerous weapons, there are only dangerous men. We’re trying to teach you to be dangerous- to the enemy.” --Sergeant Zim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slapdragon Posted October 18, 2000 Author Share Posted October 18, 2000 First off Mr. Heidman, you have obviously failed to read my first post. To help you I will include it as a cite (listed below). Please reread it when you consider your answer. If English is not your primary language I can and will translate it into French or Spanish (my Portuguese is almost lost much to my wife's distress), and I am sure other can translate it into whatever language you do read. http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/Forum1/HTML/011763.html Next, perhaps I should clarify some things. First: if you have a problem with some other stand I have taken it behooves you to start a topic thread and present your critique of my stand. Spreading ignorance by referring to some past event when you and I disagreed or claiming that I do not follow this pattern of argument without citation (or even using citation, since it has nothing to do with these methods) is poor debating techniques, small minded, and likely to build up a body of bad feeling against you, all of which is sad because you probably have things to contribute. You are better starting a new thread -- holding up my exact comments, and going to work on it. Next, and this is very important, I have been trained as a researcher and a historian, but I also do beer and pretzels arguments and usually state them. IF you do not want to stick your head into the hard core Grog historical modelling arguments, then you should read Ari's modified methodology for throwing an argument out on the table. It is excellent and well thought out. Here Ari is not claiming expertise from a reading a comic book, or demanding change based on no evidence, he is noting what he thinks is a problem and starting a discussion. Ari may or may not realize that this is in the best rhetorical traditions and is a common way to start historical and scientific discussions. It should be noted that this almost never results in a solution to a problem on its own, the solution comes from the methods I outlined, but it is a perfectly valid way to start a discussion and Ari said it in a clear and precise way. What I think Mr. Heidman is that you hold some bitterness because I have been across the fence from you and used these techniques to shoot down something you were hot for. When I teach undergraduates, and they present a weak argument in my class they often become mad when the argument is attacked -- it is part of youth. Maturity is rising above this and realizing that ideas can be on the table without pulling out knives. Some people never reach this place. Finally you have to realize that I offer only one method for arguing change -- there are others. I have offered what is known as the scientific method. Here are some other that you could propose instead of attacking me personally -- and you could argue these might be better for this board: Rhetorical: Ari's method is often used as a lead in to the scientific method, but when used to the end with no need for presentation of organized evidence it becomes it own type of argument. Logical: Related to Rhetorical -- your argument though is based upon accepted methods of thinking. Believe it or not straight math arguments are considered logical rather than scientific because they do not have to rely on any consistent modelling of the real world to stand. Deus: Word of God. This is tricky becuase you first have to line yourself up as a true spokesperson of a deity, then you have to have a consistent internal logic that does not completely confuse the faithful. Popular Opinion: Everyone knows German tanks were invincable, so it must be true. This is tough because you need to espouse an opinion that everyone already holds OR have some opinion other that can be successfully sold to the masses. Your current tact is a debaters tactic that is rarely successful but fits in the rhetorical camp. Hold up some previous transgression as proof that the current argument is flawed. Congratulations on your mastery of sophomore debating techniques. Finally, I could just throw up my hands and say grow up Mr. Heidmann and take your flame wagon elseware. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Heidman Posted October 18, 2000 Share Posted October 18, 2000 Slapdragon, I have been there, and done that. I can sit here all day and talk about scientific method, and debate methodology, and logical fallacy. Without the need to drop hints about my background every other paragraph, I am quite confident in my ability to hold my own without pointing it out over and over again. The point remains. All the method in the world is useless if you are unwilling to turn that critical eye upon yourself when appropriate. You are willing to declare that others are deficient, but unwilling to admit the failing in yourself, even when appropriate. Every post you make just reinforces this tendencey again and again. You can continue to drop your veiled appeals to authourity, and your velied ad hominens, but until you get the perspective to step back and turn that critical eye upon yourself, your admonishens to others continue to wring hollow. This is not personal, but it is something that I have seen you do again and again, and not just in discussions with me. I am hardly the first person to point it out. Of course, I could throw my hands in the air and say "Grow up Slapdragon, and take your flamewagon elsewhere." Jeff Heidman [This message has been edited by Jeff Heidman (edited 10-18-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hakko Ichiu Posted October 18, 2000 Share Posted October 18, 2000 Slapdragon has posted what is perhaps the most patriarchal, phallocratic, homophobic, racist, sexist, Euro-centric, rape manual since Newton's Principia Mathemtica. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>First off, research shows that cyber communication is liable for misundestanding...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Everyone knows that their are different modes of communication between genders, sexual orientations, culturally oppressive overlays, and other forms of political, psychological, sexual and culinary oppression. Therefore to insist that their is any possibility of "understanding" between oppressive, power wielding groups and the oppressed or even the merely transgressive is to marginalize the oppressed and assert your own phallocratic standards as a moral absolute. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Next you have to understand canon...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Now his homophobic, racist Euro-centric colors are revealed in the own dead, White maleness. Any suggestion that there is a "canon" is to discriminate against other works outside the canon, especially those produced by outsiders, marginalized peoples, transsexuals and other transgressives. The very phallocentric nature of the word "canon" should indicated how oppressive a word it is. In the highlands of Guatemala, the indigenous peoples simulate armored combat with hollow gourds and bat guano. The result is harmonious, communal and in tune with the Earth Mother. How can Slapdragon marginalize this "model" in favor of one that was "created" by the instantiated will to power of a couple of rich, white, American males? <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>A major argument here is, "why should I do all this work." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Arguing is, of course, in and of itself oppressive and phallocratic. One side must be "wrong" and the other "right". The so-called "wrong" side of the argument is thereby marginalized, oppressed, exploited and forced to make sneakers in a sweat-shop for 2 cents an hour without comprehensive national health-care or a weekly massage. It is obvious to me that Slapdragon should be forced to attend a consciousness raising seminar on the rights of lesbian vampires and their impact on the discourse space of armor penetration. Oh Gaia, I just said penetration. I'm so sorry. I feel like such a phallocrat. Please spank me now. ------- added to avoid confusion. Get better soon, Slappy. ------------------ Ethan ----------- Das also war des Pudels Kern! -- Goethe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kipanderson Posted October 18, 2000 Share Posted October 18, 2000 Slapdragon,hi, good to see you are up and about again. When I start a new thread I try to put all the evidence to support by view up front because I know there are a lot of people that come to this forum who know their subject. If you are going to make a claim that Steve and Charles have got something "not quite correct" you had better have evidence to suport the opinion. Its my respect for what others know about WW2 related subjects that drives me to make an effort if there is something I want to say. Its simply a waste of time to start a pnew thread without getting your fact together. Hope you are soon back to 100% running order. All the best, Kip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slapdragon Posted October 18, 2000 Author Share Posted October 18, 2000 Ethan- Perhaps the greatest post I have read in years on any forum. I am currently formulating a retort, but must switch my gears! Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Croda Posted October 18, 2000 Share Posted October 18, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hakko Ichiu: ...a consciousness raising seminar on the rights of lesbian vampires <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> You mean there isn't really a seminar on lesbian vampires? ------------------ "Nuts!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
combatboy5 Posted October 19, 2000 Share Posted October 19, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jeff Heidman: Slapdragon, I have been there, and done that. I can sit here all day and talk about scientific method, and debate methodology, and logical fallacy. Without the need to drop hints about my background every other paragraph, I am quite confident in my ability to hold my own without pointing it out over and over again. The point remains. All the method in the world is useless if you are unwilling to turn that critical eye upon yourself when appropriate. You are willing to declare that others are deficient, but unwilling to admit the failing in yourself, even when appropriate. Every post you make just reinforces this tendencey again and again. You can continue to drop your veiled appeals to authourity, and your velied ad hominens, but until you get the perspective to step back and turn that critical eye upon yourself, your admonishens to others continue to wring hollow. This is not personal, but it is something that I have seen you do again and again, and not just in discussions with me. I am hardly the first person to point it out. Of course, I could throw my hands in the air and say "Grow up Slapdragon, and take your flamewagon elsewhere." Jeff Heidman [This message has been edited by Jeff Heidman (edited 10-18-2000).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> ---------------- You know, my computer is terrible and it keeps loosing my password. So I was just happy reading when I read that Jeff was trying to start a new flame war, so I said, what the heck -- maybe its time to Parteee. Back old Combatboy goes into things. Jeff-- Slappy does not obviously remember the optics thread, so I will give him a summary. Slappy-- Basically someone wanted German optics to be more powerful (which I supported, but I see why you all balked), you, Cav Scout, and Wilhammer, along with BTS, came on board and said give us hard data, and Jeff along with two others freaked out, melted down, and started a flame war trying to get the thread locked when it became obvious that the cooler heads had them whooped. Now here Jeff is trying to make it sound like you are some pariah, and trying to start another flame war. Slappy, don't be worried. Jeff has like zero credibility on this forum. I would just ignore him like everyone else does. Jeff- Sorry to be so harsh but you are out of it, ready for the rubber room. You may not like this way these guys have of arguing, but obviously a lot of people do. Also, you like never read anyones posts before you post on your own. So, rather than counter flaming me on this topic thread, start a new thread and flame me there and let these people talk in peace. My real handle is Combatboy but it is screwed up (at least it wont let me log on) but I will be trying to get it back in action, if not you can use this one. Thanks for listening! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest machineman Posted October 19, 2000 Share Posted October 19, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Slapdragon: First off Mr. Heidman, you have obviously failed to read my first post. To help you I will include it as a cite (listed below). Please reread it when you consider your answer. If English is not your primary language I can and will translate it into French or Spanish (my Portuguese is almost lost much to my wife's distress), and I am sure other can translate it into whatever language you do read. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> That is the kind of sanctimonious intellectual crap that just gets more insulting the more you read it. There are PAGES and PAGES of posts you have made like this. I agree with a lot of what you said in your initial post, Slapdragon, but I also agree with Jeff that you've caused more than your share of trouble. You say you've read all your posts again, well, you've got HALF of the posting space in some of the equipment improvement threads, usually not contributing DATA or TESTS or ANYTHING, just lecturing anyone who disagrees with you that they are, in fact, idiots. Some people get offended by this, as they should be. And sure as shootin', once you get it riled up enough the real trolls like Combatboy get in there. Can't you just knock it off? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slapdragon Posted October 19, 2000 Author Share Posted October 19, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by machineman: That is the kind of sanctimonious intellectual crap that just gets more insulting the more you read it. There are PAGES and PAGES of posts you have made like this. I agree with a lot of what you said in your initial post, Slapdragon, but I also agree with Jeff that you've caused more than your share of trouble. You say you've read all your posts again, well, you've got HALF of the posting space in some of the equipment improvement threads, usually not contributing DATA or TESTS or ANYTHING, just lecturing anyone who disagrees with you that they are, in fact, idiots. Some people get offended by this, as they should be. And sure as shootin', once you get it riled up enough the real trolls like Combatboy get in there. Can't you just knock it off? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Look machineman: 28 people respond to this post. some with jokes, some with political commentary that is pretty funny, and few with critique. Jeff pulls out a silly little snide comment that can and should be ignored, and when he wont let us (and I mean us, there is not just me who thinks his comment is useless) that belongs in its own bedlam thread, and then you trott out more attempts at anti-intellectualism and flames. Great -- you and Jeff should form your own topic and agree with each other all night long, and leave serious discussions to the grogs. I am serious here. It was not myself or any other poster who tried to derail this discussion but you and Jeff. So: 1) contribute something useful. 2) Don't contribute. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ACTOR Posted October 19, 2000 Share Posted October 19, 2000 For those who don't like what is being said, don't read it. Why is it necessary to come into a thread and start a fire? If you have an opinion and you feel the need to post it, go ahead. Just use a little common sense and don't be rude. My two cents! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slapdragon Posted October 19, 2000 Author Share Posted October 19, 2000 Thank you Actor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Fox Posted October 19, 2000 Share Posted October 19, 2000 machineman has given us a great example of "How not to prove your point" That's the insulting diatribe followed by the request to "knock it off" technique. Bravo! ------------------ "Fatso-the battlers' prince" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slapdragon Posted October 19, 2000 Author Share Posted October 19, 2000 I am withdrawing this particular post and creating a new topic to cover it. [This message has been edited by Slapdragon (edited 10-19-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Oberly Posted October 19, 2000 Share Posted October 19, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Is there any ideas on this vein? How does one handle an obstructive off topic poster? Ignore or Confront? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Not that it matters much,as I hardly ever post here anymore,but I have decided to ignore your obstructive off topic posts.I wouldn't have a problem reading them,however,if they pertained to Combat Mission. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Heidman Posted October 19, 2000 Share Posted October 19, 2000 Some people are simply amazing. My post was by no means an attempt to start a flame war. I agreed with Slapdragons points, and pointed out that he might consider following them himself in the future. If it is ok for him to make that demand of others, it is clearly ok for others to make that demand of him. And that is exactly what happened. Combatboy, you just plain have no idea what you are talking about. Your summation of the optics thread is just plain revisionist lies. Don't post a flame attack on someone like that, and then ask them to respond in a new thread, have the sack to start the new thread yourself. Sorry to barge into your love-in with reality and all, but, as always, I will continue to call it kike I see it. Jeff Heidman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Madmatt Posted October 19, 2000 Share Posted October 19, 2000 Speaking of calling it like I see it this one has gone on enough and needs to be wrapped up. Everyone has a perspective in which they view the world and events that make up that world. We all see what we want and how we want. Some have the flexibilty to alter that perspective with the input of others, some do not. Rarely will those two types be altered and when they come together in a arena like this and the original point is usually lost in a flurry of lunges and parries and riposte. Fun to watch at first but it quickly grows tiring. Just as this has... Some other time gentleman, but for now this has come to an end. Madmatt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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