Question about firepower, exposure, and casualty causing

[Toad]

Yes, I searched the forum before writing this. Read lots of good messages, but I still have come curiousities.

The short of it: How are small-arms casualties figured?

When I stretch the targeting rubber band around the map, I notice that it gives me firepower and exposure estimates when I point at enemy units. This is neat, but unlike armour-to-armour targeting, it's hard to judge if I'm being effective or not.

Example: Firepower 100, enemy exposure 20%. Is this good? Am I wasting my bullets? Can I be effective with this, or do I need to move closer or bring more guns? How can I decide?

Example: 78% chance to hit, OK kill. Abstractions; I know. The gunner doesn't have a battle computer that spits these precise measurements out for him. But I can make a decision about the fighting effectiveness of my tank.

Can anyone offer more insight into translating firepower and exposure numbers into "good" and "not so good?"

Thanks!

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Toad

Ontario, Canada

[Biff]

I am curious about this "Firepower" issue as well.

[Daveman]

Like a lot of things in CM, the firepower rating is an abstraction. Selecting a unit and hitting "enter" will pull up all sorts of detailed stats for the unit. Doing so with infantry will show how much "firepower" the squad will throw out at various ranges. Depending on range and type of unit this can be anywhere from 300ish to <10. With vehicles the "Blast FP" shows how much "firepower" an HE shell or burst will do.

100ish "firepower" is pretty typical for infantry fighting at 100m or so. At that range, you're doing more suppression than killing. Small arms fire really doesn't kill much unless you're up real close (50m or so)... then squads can drop like flies. That doesn't mean it's a waste of bullets, as suppression is very important. It prevents or impairs the target from doing whatever it's trying to do, lets you maneuver other units in for the kill, etc.

Exposure is simply a measure of how well covered the target is. Standing in the open is 100% exposure, 20% is pretty well covered.

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"You know our standing orders. Out of ammo become a bunker, out of commission become a pillbox, out of time... become heroes." - The Beast

[Guest Offwhite]

I'd consider 100fp/20% to be worth taking the shot, though you're not going to wipe out an entire squad in one turn that way.

A couple considerations: one, low firepower could cause casualties at high exposures (especially snipers!); and two, if you put 200fp into a well-protected enemy position, you might not hit anyone, but you're going to keep their heads down. That's effective shooting too, since they're not killing your men and you can sneak somebody else in from the flank.

(Daveman beat me to it)

[This message has been edited by Offwhite (edited 08-30-2000).]

[Toad]

Thanks for the replies so far.

I think what I'm looking for is some way to set expectations.

To use my first examples. If the game tells me my tank has a 78% chance to hit, and an OK kill possibility I can set some expectations around that. I can have a reasonable idea of what my results are going to be.

The firepower and exposure abstractions don't give me that.

I certainly don't want to turn CM into a game of spreadsheet play-by-the-numbers. That wouldn't be fun at all. And often, it's the *un*-expected results that become our fave movies to play over and over.

But I'm looking for a way to build better expectations for small-arms combat.

"What if I want to keep that enemy MG surpressed while my troops advance to that forest over there? Do I have enough firepower aimed at it? Should I get this extra squad involved too, or should I leave them to choose their own targets? What can I *expect* when I click the Go! button?"

See what I'm looking for?

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Toad

Ontario, Canada

[Daveman]

I understand what you're saying, but the kind of expectations you're in search of are precisely what this game tries to keep hidden from the player.

How much firepower are you firing? What is the target's exposure? What is the quality of the target and of your unit? Are the enemy units "in command", and does their leader have bonuses in morale and/or combat? All of this plus a fair amount of random chance factor in.

My best advice to you is to do what I've done (and still am)... play the game, experiment and observe what happens. I've had what I thought were perfectly planned attacks crumble, and seen outnumbered, weary defenders hold off many times their number. It's part of the magic of this game.

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"You know our standing orders. Out of ammo become a bunker, out of commission become a pillbox, out of time... become heroes." - The Beast

[IntelWeenie]

Has anyone tried a firing range-type experiment?

Toad, this might be the best way to get the answers you're looking for. Problem is, there seem to be a lot more factors involved in infantry fire than tank fire. Experience, leadership, target's actions/posture (moving, hiding, firing back, etc.) all are factors that aren't relfected by the info shown by the LOS tool. The more you play, the better "feel" you'll get. Not much of an answer, but I hope it helps.

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"Belly to belly and everything's better" - Russian proverb

[Alexander]

A conundrum I haven't seen addressed in other threads:

To wit; a vehicle can be Hull Down exposing less of its mass to fire thus lowering chances of a hit. Can infantry be hull down as well?

Is my paratrooper, his helmut barely sticking out over a terrain dip, 'hull down' to an enemy MGer in the woods across the hill? Is he less exposed for hit calculation probability? Or is he considered fully acquired and vulnerable?

Another query: how do walls and hedges figure in to target exposure? It's not clear whether there's an arbirtary distance to be observed or the height of the barrier is computed in real terms in relation to the height and direction of hostile fire.

[guachi]

One thing to remember is that infantry firepower can cause "collateral" casualties/suppression.

If squads are too close together, fire directed at one can have an adverse effect on nearby squads.

I wrote an AAR up WAAAYYY back in February. I had my opponents password and I was systematically going through the turns counting casualties. I was curious to see how effective my infantry were. I was surprised at how many collateral casualties i actually caused. One turn, I actually caused more casualties to a neighboring squad that wasn't being fired on than to the squad I was firing on.

Jason

[Bastables]

As I understand it ‘hull down’ is a binary, it’s either ‘hull down’ or not. With Infantry Sections/teams you get exposure ratings or varying degrees of hull down for the whole section. The exposure ratings in my experience do take into account variables such as height, which is shown by the effectiveness of ‘tall pines’ tiles in blocking vision from higher elevations to a greater degree than ‘woods’ tiles, whereas the wall is utterly useless for blocking los if the enemy section is looking down and past the wall from an elevation.

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I cannot eat these eggs, they are of completely different sizes.

[Basebal351]

Here's a rough idea:

Playing one of the scenarios, on the defense (I believe it was the one where you're to hold to bridges as the Germans against the British). Anyways, an entire squad of British soldiers rushed my MG Pillbox, surrounded by barbed-wire. Needless to say, they get held up by the wire, four feet away, and I tell my MG to fire on the squad. 100% exposure + 200+(?) firepower = an entire squad obliterated within 5 seconds.

Just thought I'd share a great moment!!

P.S. I STILL haven't had a kill with a sniper, can't figure those guys out...

[KiwiJoe]

Walls - 30% exposure if behind and within 15m, 0% if hiding behind (relative to the enemy of course)

Hedges - 60% (same conditions as above)

[IntelWeenie]

Another good rule of thumb (don't know why I didn't think of this before). Infantry fire is more likely to supress than kill at longer ranges (over 100-150m). When you get in close (under 75m) soldiers will die like flies (or is it hamsters?).

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"Belly to belly and everything's better" - Russian proverb

[IntelWeenie]

GRRR. Double post. Sorry.

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"Belly to belly and everything's better" - Russian proverb

[This message has been edited by IntelWeenie (edited 08-31-2000).]

[RudeLover]

Standing in the open is 100% exposure, [\quote]

I think that 'open ground' can often be less than 100% exposure, which simulates small undulations in the terrain and the occasional tree or rock. Stand in 'pavement' and you'll be exposed...

[pzvg]

I find it to worthwhile when it hits 70%+ exposure, you might not hit anyone, but they usually shift to "better positions" (those always being to the rear

Addenum: I have had a sniper kill a guy in a squad, but the squad wasted him rather fast afterwards, maybe we (all of us) are putting snipers too close?

Finally, Toad, are you perchance the Toad from WB? (if ya aren't that makes no sense to ya, if ya are, hiyas)

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Pzvg

"Murphy's law of combat #10, never forget your weapon is made by the lowest bidder

[Guest Big Time Software]

Good question.

The answer is, as some have hit upon, that the outcome of firing on an infantry unit is a lot more variable than at an armored vehicle. We felt that putting some sort of % chance of a hit would be a little too much info or (if we filtered out some factors) misleading. Also, displaying a "to hit" factor is only one desirable factor. The other is "to suppress". There is also "to disrupt". On top of the Fog of War aspects, this starts to get into issues of clutter. So best to keep it at FP and Exposure and let the player figure out the rest.

As others have suggested, range is the big factor you need to pay attention to. That and what your unit is capable of pumping out at that range. The cover the enemy is in (exposure) is next. The closer the range, the better the FP, and the higher the exposure -> the better chance you have of doing something usefull (suppression or casualties).

Steve

[Guest Michael emrys]

I personally think it is possible to be overly concerned with the number here. Given the "fuzzy logic" as applied by BTS, you are apt to get a wide range of outcomes for a given set of number anyway. I know in my own play, if I am attacking an enemy squad, I just set a couple of my own squads and a machine gun (if one happens to be handy) to firing suppressive fire, while I work a third squad up close enough to do some real damage. If the suppressive fire also happens to create a casualty or two, that's gravy, but I'm not in the position of having to count on it.

By the way, if I have any artillery or tanks handy, I've been doing a little prep firing while I am working my platoon into position as a preliminary softening up process. This may also generate a casualty or two, and erode the morale of the unit I want to attack.

Michael